Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [2]

[Pettytyrant101]

My view on this has nothing to do with who the victims are- my worry is about the sort of sentencing handed down- in this case I think the slogan is offensive, particularly on the day of the deaths- but a community service punishment would seem more fitting and suitable to me for this- not a jail term at tax payers expense at a time when people on assualt charges generally dont go to prison.
Locking someone up for expressing an opinion, however horrible the opinion, instinctively worries me.

[Pettytyrant101]

'A restaurant has apologised after a toddler was served whisky instead of fruit juice at his birthday party. Sonny Rees drank the whisky at his second birthday in a Frankie and Benny's restaurant in Swansea. His mother Nina Rees only realised the mistake after he had nearly finished the drink.'- BBC


Not sure if I should be amazed someone could mix up lime juice and whisky or congratulate the little fella on his excellent buckie consumption!
The mother had a bit of a tizz and took him to the hospital- she wasnt a Scottish mother then. A Scottish mother would still have been in the shop demanding free whisky in return for not suing their arse off!

[Orwell]

I think you said he got an extended sentence. He was getting four months and with the new offense he committed the Judge gave him more time?

If one is going to get time them continues to commit offences would that not suggest (1) more time might be added, and (2) highlight that a person believes they can do whatever they like in spite of the law even with a sentence already hanging over their head?

[Orwell]

'A restaurant has apologised after a toddler was served whisky instead of fruit juice at his birthday party. Sonny Rees drank the whisky at his second birthday in a Frankie and Benny's restaurant in Swansea. His mother Nina Rees only realised the mistake after he had nearly finished the drink.'- BBC


Not sure if I should be amazed someone could mix up lime juice and whisky or congratulate the little fella on his excellent buckie consumption!
The mother had a bit of a tizz and took him to the hospital- she wasnt a Scottish mother then. A Scottish mother would still have been in the shop demanding free whisky in return for not suing their arse off!

I bet they didn't ask the toddler his opinion? Prudes!

[Orwell]

Malala Yousafzai, I guess, got what she had coming to her. Fancy being positive about President Obama. Fancy standing up for girls education. Pull out the troops - give the Taliban a better chance to put girls back in their place. Fourteen? Why wasn't she married off? I'll tell you why - she was off to school. Infidel! Obscene child!

How come offensive bastards getting gaol and babies accidentally imbibing scotch are more Forumpostworthy than this issue? I guess no one likes criticising the Taliban. If the Americans bombed a suspected Taliban HQ and accidentally killed Malal while she was visiting, there would be utter outrage here!

[Pettytyrant101]

Now Orwell you know fine well a drunk toddler is more newsworthy than some (foreign) person getting horribly killed for standing up for their rights. Do you know nothing of western press?!
And in fairness I did say in response at the time:

'Disgusting, unjustifiable by any means including religous- humanity at its worst and simultaneously its most stupid.'

The fellow in the tshirt slogan thing I have since discovered was on a suspended sentence for cannabis possesssion- basically means break the law again you automatically go staright to jail- the question then becomes should putting your opinion (however awful) on your tshirt constitute a crime?

[Eldorion]

Do you guys believe it is okay to deliberately and maliciously offend people, especially when there is an element of agitation to action involved? We have laws against offensive behaviour here - which we apply rarely - but surely sometimes penalties are merited?

Thinking more on this, one man kills two women and then another assaults (by word) their families and their fellow employees. (And, no, I don't agree with you guys that police are evil and deserve whatever they get). He's probably lucky a member of the public didn't offend him back by punching him in the face.

What happened was tragic and in no way do I want to suggest that it was a good thing or that I agree with the message on the T-shirt. However, I am not comfortable with the idea that being an asshole is somehow a criminal offense. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. My understanding is that U.S. laws about offensive behavior are much more lax than those of many other countries. If this guy was harassing the family of the victim that would be one thing, but it's just a T-shirt. Even though in this case I think everyone agrees that the T-shirt is completely inappropriate, it's not an area I want the government getting overly involved in.

[Eldorion]

How come offensive bastards getting gaol and babies accidentally imbibing scotch are more Forumpostworthy than this issue? I guess no one likes criticising the Taliban. If the Americans bombed a suspected Taliban HQ and accidentally killed Malal while she was visiting, there would be utter outrage here!

I knew you would say something like this.

I did a bit of reading about the Malala Yousafzai earlier when the story was breaking and was suitably depressed by it. I'm glad that the girl has survived (so far, and I sincerely hope that she makes a full recovery in time) but I didn't really feel like dwelling on it again. :/

[Orwell]

The fellow in the tshirt slogan thing I have since discovered was on a suspended sentence for cannabis possesssion- basically means break the law again you automatically go staright to jail- the question then becomes should putting your opinion (however awful) on your tshirt constitute a crime?

The answer is, of course, "Depends!" I think that acting offensively (by word, whether uttered or printed) should be included under the Law, so long as the offense given is unjustifiable and malicious and serving no other purpose than to give offence.

[Orwell]

What happened was tragic and in no way do I want to suggest that it was a good thing or that I agree with the message on the T-shirt. However, I am not comfortable with the idea that being an asshole is somehow a criminal offense. Perhaps it's a cultural thing. My understanding is that U.S. laws about offensive behavior are much more lax than those of many other countries. If this guy was harassing the family of the victim that would be one thing, but it's just a T-shirt. Even though in this case I think everyone agrees that the T-shirt is completely inappropriate, it's not an area I want the government getting overly involved in.

See my last post in response to Petty.

As a side issue: if someone acts in a way that is truly offensive to me, should I be allowed to knock their block off?

If not, must I then be unprotected by society when it comes to being unfairly and unjustly insulted, offended, verbally attacked, other than reacting in kind?

The laws (Down Here) were probably introduced to help maintain public order, because if folk can get away with abusing others, then many folk might think, "Well, stuff you, mate - I'm gonna punch your head in." Provocation is not a defence where I come from, so what do I do? - stew slowly in the unfairness of it all, or descend to the level of the anti-social pricks of this world and be offensive back?

[Pettytyrant101]

What if it turns out he is anarchist and politically sees the police as a tool of state and an enemy of the people?- does that make him a political prisoner? Is that locking someone up for expressing (however badly) a political view?
And who decides what is offensive or not and to whom?
Just to be devils advocate.


'must I then be unprotected by society when it comes to being unfairly and unjustly insulted, offended, verbally attacked'- Orwell

Would slander laws not cover that? Or if it was continous Harrassment?

That seems quite different to me from putting a message on a tshirt and just wearing it- he wasnt going to their house wearing it, or anywhere near them- he was unpleasantly and distastefully gloating in the deaths of police officers yes, but not as far as I can tell to deliberetly harass the victims relatives- who if the press had not got hold of it would no doubt never have seen it or ever heard of the man.

[Orwell]

What if it turns out he is anarchist and politically sees the police as a tool of state and an enemy of the people?- does that make him a political prisoner? Is that locking someone up for expressing (however badly) a political view?
And who decides what is offensive or not and to whom?
Just to be devils advocate.


'must I then be unprotected by society when it comes to being unfairly and unjustly insulted, offended, verbally attacked'- Orwell

Would slander laws not cover that? Or if it was continous Harrassment?

That seems quite different to me from putting a message on a tshirt and just wearing it- he wasnt going to their house wearing it, or anywhere near them- he was unpleasantly and distastefully gloating in the deaths of police officers yes, but not as far as I can tell to deliberetly harass the victims relatives- who if the press had not got hold of it would no doubt never have seen it or ever heard of the man.

I can't recall any Political Parties (or Sects) coming out and claiming him as their own? Where was it said he was being a Devil's Advocate? As to being offensive, I think rational people know the difference between what is acceptable and what's not. Abusive anti-social people don't. Is this an open minded discussion, or just an interesting debate you want to win, Petty?

Deliberately or not, how could they not be offended? The families are ones I think didn't deserve it - cops get it all the time fairly or unfairly and can cope, offensive or not.

[Pettytyrant101]

Where was it said he was being a Devil's Advocate?- Orwell

Nowhere I was saying I was putting forward those arguments to be devils advocate.

Which should answer your other question- 'Is this an open minded discussion, or just an interesting debate you want to win, Petty'

Considering I am arguing a position I dont have any really strong view on just for the sake of furthering the debate and hearing your views I think its clear winning is not my point.

[Orwell]

Then forget things like:
"What if it turns out he is anarchist and politically sees the police as a tool of state and an enemy of the people?- does that make him a political prisoner? Is that locking someone up for expressing (however badly) a political view?... Just to be devils advocate."

They are unrelated hypothethicals. The issue (for me at least) is "Was what this guy did acceptable and legal, or should his act on this occasion be illegal?" Which I guess leads one to ask, "Should there be any law at all against what is deemed to be truly offensive?" (I don't mean Civil Law here, I'm talking about Criminal Law). If we were to agree (hyothetically) that there should be a law against offensive behaviour, then - and only then - would we need to discuss what constitutes a breach of the law.

[Pettytyrant101]

But that point is rather mute in a country where such laws already exist- which they must in the Uk or he could not have been found guilty under them. It not a hypothetical matter.
So we are already onto the question of who decides what is offensive and to whom arent we?

And I cant help but wonder if he had worn a tshirt with something equally offensive about what happened to Malala Yousafzai, would he still have been arrested?

[Orwell]

But that point is rather mute in a country where such laws already exist- which they must in the Uk or he could not have been found guilty under them. It not a hypothetical matter.
So we are already onto the question of who decides what is offensive and to whom arent we?

And I cant help but wonder if he had worn a tshirt with something equally offensive about what happened to Malala Yousafzai, would he still have been arrested?

Good point. If her family had a reasonable hope of seeing it, I guess, in principle, yes, though legally, no. Anyway - was this bloke arrested for it?

[Pettytyrant101]

Arrested and sentenced to 4 months with a further 4 for breaching his suspended sentence for the cannabis possession.
So as you see somewhere in our legal system I assume someone has to decide what is offensive and not- I am guessing the police must have at least guidlines on which to act on in such cases as to whether the offence is one for which arrest is required- and its that part of the process- the nameless beurocrats who decide what is an offense or not which gives me pause for concern in this matter.

[Orwell]

I did a bit of reading about the Malala Yousafzai earlier when the story was breaking and was suitably depressed by it. I'm glad that the girl has survived (so far, and I sincerely hope that she makes a full recovery in time) but I didn't really feel like dwelling on it again. :/

I want to dwell on it. I also want all the Taliban (males) given at least four months gaol for it!

[Orwell]

..- the nameless beurocrats who decide what is an offense or not which gives me pause for concern in this matter.

You mean your elected MP's? I think they've all got names.

[Pettytyrant101]

Ha if watching Yes minister has taught me anything is thats MP decide very little if anything!

And I doubt it is MP's who decide- they are just the signature- it will be lawyers and there ilk.

[Orwell]

No, lawyers will advise MP's but it's Parliament that enacts legislation. I hope you didn't vote for the Party who enacted this Offensive Behaviour Law, Petty - or continue to support it as I'm guessing it's been around a long time!

[Pettytyrant101]

Its one of those laws that seem to have sneaked onto the statute books without them letting anyone know.
Im not even certain there is such a law in Scotland- we do have a law against sectarian abuse online to resolve a particular issue but I am less certain about the law used in this case being applicable in Scotland- Im trying to find out- not proving easy in itself.

And no I didnt vote fo this lot, the last lot, or the lot before that- in fact the party I have voted for at Westmininster has never won! So I have responsibility for none of them in my own lifetime- just for voting SNP in Scotland.

[Orwell]

I too have got an excellent ability for voting for the losing Party at elections. Why won't a majority of people agree with my wise opinions?

Maybe you have no Law because you Scots accept abuse as a civilized standard. Alcohol, I suspect, eases (or erases) any concious pain it causes.

[Pettytyrant101]

Alcohol, I suspect, eases (or erases) any concious pain it causes.- Orwell

What makes you say that? Have I been arguing with someone again?

[Orwell]

Oh how droll you are, Petty... how!