The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [3]

[CC12 35]

Continued from: http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t310p990-the-bigger-badder-even-more-serious-thread-2
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good point well made all of u

[David H]

I understand your point David, but to be fair, it's hardly uncommon to ascribe responsibility to an entire nation for the actions of its government or a segment of its people.

I agree. It's not uncommon at all. It's always easier to think and speak in stereotypes. I knew people of my parent's generation who would never trust Germans or Japanese till the day they died because they grew up on this kind of rhetoric. The partisan lines are everywhere and only seem to be getting stronger.

I don't see the discussion of Israel as much different than the gun control debate in the US. Israel has some very legitimate security concerns. They're sitting in the middle of a powder keg. They've got a right to be able to defend themselves, but they probably don't need need nuclear weapons to do that any more than I need a 30 round banana clip or a 50 cal sniper rifle. But if we tar all gun owners or all Israelis or all Jews with the same brush, then we'll all tend to come together and entrench for solidarity, even if we may personally hate some of the people we find ourselves sharing the trench with.

Personally I don't care whether or not Ward got sanctioned for his comment.

I guess my point was that if he was trying to highlight a problem with an eye to fixing it, then he missed his mark by not properly identifying the group responsible for the problem. If on the other hand what he was trying to do was inflame the situation further and get the international Jewish community to unite with the Israeli right-wing, then his comment was right on target.

[halfwise]

He could have said "Israel was formed largely in response to the Holocaust, yet Israeli policies towards the Palestinians do not appear to reflect the lessons of the Holocaust." He may have gotten less backlash.

Israel is such a mixed bag. In many details it tries to be a moral nation, but then implements grand policies that undermine this theme. If it would just give up Zionism I think it would do just fine.

[Mrs Figg]

I wonder if the people who are 'sickened' and 'saddened' are prepared to take any responsibility for the heart of the argument? do they think they are being victimized, again, by non jewish people, or do they understand why a British mp would say such a thing?. Do they not think that there is any basis for such comments? He wasnt denying the horror or tragedy of the Holocaust was he? he was talking about modern day policies. whats sickening about that I wonder?.

[Pettytyrant101]

David you have to remember the UK was instrumental in the creation of Israel, we still send them money and for reasons beyond most average Britains knowledge the Jewish lobby is strong in our Parliament, despite Judiasm as a religion being so small in the UK it barely shows up in surveys at all (less than 1% of the population).
So I dont agree with the censor of him on the basis that as a UK MP he has a right to comment when UK tax payer money find it way to Israel to support a regime that persecutes and terrorises Palestinians on a daily basis.

Mrs Figg- no he wasnt denying the holocaust at all, quite the opposite.

[Pettytyrant101]

Seems like the MP has been forced into a retraction, of sorts, its kind of grudging.

'A Liberal Democrat MP who accused "the Jews" in Israel of "inflicting atrocities on Palestinians... on a daily basis" has apologised for the "unintended offence".
Bradford East MP David Ward said in a blog post he had been "trying to make clear that everybody needs to learn the lessons of the Holocaust".
on Saturday he apologised, saying: "I never for a moment intended to criticise or offend the Jewish people as a whole, either as a race or as a people of faith, and apologise sincerely for the unintended offence which my words caused.
"I recognise, of course, the deep sensitivities of these issues at all times, and particularly on occasions of commemoration such as this weekend."He said his criticisms "of actions since 1948 in the Palestinian territories in the name of the state of Israel remain as strong as ever".
He added: "I will continue to make criticisms of actions in Palestine in the strongest possible terms for as long as Israel continues to oppress the Palestinian people." - BBC

[David H]

Fair enough. I'd call that a clarification rather than a retraction.

[Eldorion]

File this one under "Continuing proofs Italy is wacko."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/silvio-berlusconi/9830157/Silvio-Berlusconi-under-fire-for-defending-Benito-Mussolini.html

Silvio Berlusconi provoked outrage at a ceremony to mark International Holocaust Remembrance Day when he said Benito Mussolini had done some good for Italy.

Speaking on the sidelines of the ceremony, he even defended the fascist dictator’s support of Adolf Hitler, saying Mussolini probably made an alliance with the Nazis because he feared Germany’s potential expansion.

Mr Berlusconi also said that Italy did not have "the same responsibilities" as Germany for what happened because at the beginning of the bilateral relationship Italy "was not completely aware". Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, on Saturday said Germany had an "everlasting responsibility" for the crimes of the Nazis.

"It's difficult now to put yourself in the shoes of people who were making decisions at that time," said Mr Berlusconi.

"Obviously the government of that time, out of fear that German power might lead to complete victory, preferred to ally itself with Hitler's Germany rather than opposing it.

"As part of this alliance, there were impositions, including combating and exterminating Jews. The racial laws were the worst fault of Mussolini as a leader, who in so many other ways did well."

[Mrs Figg]

Alessandra Mussolini, the dictator’s 50-year-old granddaughter, is an MP for Mr Berlusconi’s People of Freedom party.

says it all really.

[Pettytyrant101]

I thought Italy always just surrendered when there was a war on?

As the old joke goes-'Italian tanks only have one gear- reverse!"

[Mrs Figg]

their royal family was crap too, they legged it.

[Pettytyrant101]

Typical- whilst ours were having tea in the blitz with the locals!

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

The Sunday Times published a political cartoon by famous satirist Gerald Scarfe.
It featured the Israeli President building a wall using dead Palestinians as mortar.



It is captioned "Israeli elections. Will cementing peace continue?"

It of course has brought condemnation-

The Board of Deputies of British Jews said the cartoon was "shockingly reminiscent of the blood libel imagery more usually found in parts of the virulently anti-Semitic Arab press".
It added: "Its use is all the more disgusting on Holocaust Memorial Day, given the similar tropes levelled against Jews by the Nazis."
Israel's UK ambassador Daniel Taub said: "The image of Israel's security barrier, which is saving the lives of both Jews and Arabs from suicide bombers, being built from Palestinian blood and bodies is baseless and outrageous.
"The use of vicious motifs echoing those used to demonize Jews in the past is particularly shocking and hurtful on International Holocaust Remembrance Day, but the crude and shallow hatred of this cartoon should render it totally unacceptable on any day of the year."- BBC

Obviously therefore everyone has had to apoligise from Murdoch down-

Mr Murdoch wrote in a tweet: "Gerald Scarfe has never reflected the opinions of the Sunday Times. Nevertheless, we owe major apology for grotesque, offensive cartoon."
The paper's acting editor, Martin Ivens, said in a statement that insulting the memory of Holocaust victims was "the last thing I or anyone connected with the Sunday Times would countenance".
"The paper has long written strongly in defence of Israel and its security concerns, as have I as a columnist," he said.
"We are, however, reminded of the sensitivities in this area by the reaction to the cartoon, and I will, of course, bear them very carefully in mind in future."
Scarfe has expressed regret over its publication on Holocaust Memorial Day.- BBC


The UK has a centuries old tradition of these sort of political cartoons- many famous ones from the past are far cruder and just as uncompromising as this- it fits well within the traditions.

This is the second story now where someone has expressed an opinion on the treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli Govt and been hounded until they retract and apoligise for it by a clamour of over the top reaction from the Jewish Groups in the UK.

As my grandfather would say, he fought a war to make sure people he didnt like could say things he didnt want to hear. I wish more people had his attitude.

[halfwise]

Anything short of making disparaging remarks about the holocaust should be fair game in Israel.

[Mrs Figg]

they should be happy they dont live in Hogarthian 18th century England, some of the satire then was brutal and incredibly vulgar. but its part of our tradition, free speech and satire go hand in hand.

[David H]

If you can't publish a ruthless political cartoon about a sitting Prime Minister, what has the British press come to?

Once again we're seeing a very professional PR machine change the debate topic from criticism of Netanyahu to criticism of Judaism and then to insensitivity to Holocaust victims. It makes it much more difficult to have a reasonable, rational discussion of the issues.

[Eldorion]

I understand why people are bringing this up on Holocaust Memorial Day, but I do think it's rather tasteless. Still, I'm far more offended by the anti-free speech chorus coming out and acting like this cartoon is more of an affront to human decency than oppressing hundreds of thousands of people is.

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

Exactly Mrs Figg- its part of a very long standing tradition of lampooning, targeting and exposing in cartoon form those who rule over us.
And the french once were even worse than ours.

[David H]

If I sometimes seem to feel strongly about lumping all Israelis together, it's because I've met more than a few Israelis, Palestinians and Iranians like these people. It gives me hope. I hate to see them marginalized.

When war between Israel and Iran seemed imminent, Israeli graphic designer Ronny Edry shared a poster on Facebook of himself and his daughter with a bold message: "Iranians ... we [heart] you." Other Israelis quickly created their own posters with the same message -- and Iranians responded in kind. The simple act of communication inspired surprising Facebook communities like "Israel loves Iran," "Iran loves Israel" and even "Palestine loves Israel."

Ronny Edry of Israel accidentally created an online movement for peace in the Middle East when he posted a Facebook image that declared "Iranians, we will never bomb your country."

http://www.ted.com/talks/israel_and_iran_a_love_story.html

[Lorient Avandi]

So apparently Coke is racist. It was only a matter of time. We all saw it coming, with those white polar bears and all.
http://now.msn.com/coke-super-bowl-ad-is-racist-arab-americans-say?ocid=ansnow11

[Pettytyrant101]

-BBC

[halfwise]

USA #1 ...and proud of it!

[Pettytyrant101]

By a sheer coincidence (well it must be if the NRA are to be believed) the two countries with the highest gun deaths also have the laxest gun laws.