The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Kafria]

I know this belongs in the BBST - but didn't want to start a new one on the off chance it turns up.
I found this article on friday and was logging in to post it when I found out about us being kidnapped!

So this feeds into the idea that kids from different backgrounds are a different readinesses for school - and does so in an attempt at more objectivity than my little ideas!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12423543

It shows a key difference in a variaty of factors that affect early learning and yet again proves that those born into lower income families have the odds stacked against them!

[Gandalf's Beard]

So true Kafria. For any number of poverty related reasons from abuse, to bullying, gang violence, malnutrition, not enough funding, etc, kids in poor neighbor hoods just don't get the same chances that wealthier kids get.

GB

[Kafria]

It seems incredilbe that although we are aware of all the complex issues feeding into this that it is still education that seems to be tasked with solving all these problems and increasing 'social mobility'. Like the lastest plan with tuition fees, if the unis charge the £9000 top whack they will need to meet a target of poorer students intake or be dropped to the £6000 mark.

(Tuition fees a sore point with me as I've seen the money I need to save in the next seven years jump from £9000 to £27000 if I'm to help reduce the ridiculus amount of debt my daughter will end up with!)

[Gandalf's Beard]

I know some will call me a "Conspiracy Theorist" but I believe that the Fee hikes for Universities in the UK and the US are part of a concerted plan to have a tiered level of education. One for Rich folk, and one for poor folk that will teach them just enough to provide services and labour for the Rich folk.

GB

[Kafria]

Oh, not so sure about that. I think it is a way to reduce the number of students while claiming to want to send more to uni. They keep talking about the ris ein numbers, but the biggest rise is in those without any recognised qualification that counts for UCAS (the admissions system). someting in the region of 25% increase in the last 3 years!

[Eldorion]

I don't think that is necessarily the intent, GB, though I'm sure that a certain disregard for the poor plays a role. However, I think a lot of policymakers simply don't care that much about funding education, at least not compared to some other programs, which forces schools to charge more. This could be born of anti-intellectual bias (which a certain wing of the US GOP certainly has) or a disregard for those who can't afford higher fees, or something else entirely but I think it's a jump (in the absence of further evidence) to call it a premeditated plot to insitute tiered education.

[Pettytyrant]

It has always been a bit of mystery to me that in the UK education is controlled by local authorities- I know they talk about local accountability but if your average councillor was bright and intelligent and driven they'd be a proper politician. We don't trust local councils with defence, or police (yet) or the ambulance, why do we let them do schools?

[Ringdrotten]

It has always been a bit of mystery to me that in the UK education is controlled by local authorities- I know they talk about local accountability but if your average councillor was bright and intelligent and driven they'd be a proper politician. We don't trust local councils with defence, or police (yet) or the ambulance, why do we let them do schools?

This is a good point. All the mayors, save one, of the nearest muncipalities around where I live are downright stupid. They're very likeable persons, but they've got no clue about politics. The councillors are no better.

[Kafria]

Because obviously you can't trust the trained professionals to do their job properly, without some jumped up little busybody coming in to tell you that the reason the children in your class who misbehave (and have been excluded and in the behaviour unit and have been under ASBO for the riot they nearly caused and think that burping and farting loudly is the height of humour) are only misbehaving (and screwing up the starter sheet you spent an hour creating on the floor) because you are giving them work that is too easy. - (so its my fault they switch the kettle and the radio on every lesson unless i hide the leads or that they tried to sneak the fire blanket out under their jumpers and it took me ten minutes to get it off them!)

Had a local inspection recently and the comment above is genuine, along with the teacher who was told that they're behaviour management was too passive because they asked instead of told students what to do (He's one of the best at discipline).

The only problem is that I don't see being under central control as being any better. The new government keeps talking about more freedom for schools, while bringing in measures of sucess for leagu tables that are going to send schools down particular paths!

[Pettytyrant]

From what you say Kafria discipline is a big problem. I'm not saying that corporal punishment was a good solution, but it did seem to work, and we don't seem to have a found a replacement that is as effective at maintaining discipline.

I agree central government management would most likely be no better- just seems odd giving something so important as the countries education to local councillors. Its a bit like asking a hospital cleaner to perform heart surgery.

[Gandalf's Beard]

I don't think that is necessarily the intent, GB, though I'm sure that a certain disregard for the poor plays a role. However, I think a lot of policymakers simply don't care that much about funding education, at least not compared to some other programs, which forces schools to charge more. This could be born of anti-intellectual bias (which a certain wing of the US GOP certainly has) or a disregard for those who can't afford higher fees, or something else entirely but I think it's a jump (in the absence of further evidence) to call it a premeditated plot to insitute tiered education.

Well it's always been the intent of the Right Wing. I'm not saying everyone in the Ruling Class has that intent though. The Right Wing have always hated Public Education and are always working on some scheme or another to get rid of it.

Consider recent news. Republicans are refusing to move on Obama's budget proposals, ostensibly until he cuts budgets for programs they hate...like schools. They are pushing for Obama to cut billions in Pell Grant aid that has given working class and poor students an opportunity for higher education.

They are always seeking to cut funding for public schools and keep proposing voucher systems which would provide a piddling amount towards sending kids to Private Schools. Of course working class and poor families would not have the money to make up the difference. These facts are incontrovertible. And they point Directly at a plot to undermine Public Education. It's NOT even a Secret Plot. The GOP have always been very open about their plans to break Teachers Unions and do away with Public Education. So it's not really a Conspiracy in the sense of it being a secret; these are their openly stated goals.

And Petty, the problem isn't lack of discipline. You just don't have the same dysfunctions in Wealthier School Districts that one has in Poverty Riddled Urban School Districts, where teachers and students are operating under tremendous stress levels.

GB

[Pettytyrant101]

I couldn't do without it! Especially not on a day when the news on in the background is making me spit and scream!


PM Cameron is selling his 'Big Society' where volunteers take up the slack caused by his government slashing public spending.
Or in other words getting us to pay more taxes than we were and then asking us to do for free the jobs those taxes used to pay for.
And all this from the mouth of a multi-millionaire whose somewhere in line to the Throne sitting round a Cabinet of other multi-millionaires. We're all in it together!

Eldo you might want to move the education debate here.

[Eldorion]

I merged the two. It's good to see the BBST back, I've missed it.

Has anyone been following what's happening in Egypt since Mubarak resigned? The BBC is reporting that there are fresh protests against the military interim government. I really hope that the Egyptians are able to get a stable government and not descend into anarchy or another dictatorship. I don't think there was a coherent group or individual leading the 'revolution', as it has been termed, so I'm sure there will be many people vying for power.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12448413

[Pettytyrant101]

From what I have gathered from todays news the army are in charge, but claim they will hand over to a civilian government in September. The smaller scale trouble that's breaking out seems to be a result of freedom. Lots of state workers who have been badly paid and treated for decades are demanding better pay and conditions and using the new found power of freedom of protest to its full, and with the zeal of those new to democracy and not jaded and cynical about it like we are in the West.
And the police are back to work, which people don't like as they were closely associated with a lot of the mistreatment dished out by the last regime. And although the heads been cut off all the appointees of Mubarak remain in place.
I doubt its over yet.

[Eldorion]

The army seemed to be taking steps to neutralize Mubarak supporters. A number of former top officials were banned from foreign travel and the Parliament, which was full of Mubarak supporters, was suspended until the upcoming elections. That could be a move to centralize power in the hands of the military, but it could also be a step taken to keep Mubarak's supporters from trying to re-take control. I don't know enough to say anything more, but I agree that it's certainly not over.

[Ally]

I couldn't do without it! Especially not on a day when the news on in the background is making me spit and scream!


PM Cameron is selling his 'Big Society' where volunteers take up the slack caused by his government slashing public spending.
Or in other words getting us to pay more taxes than we were and then asking us to do for free the jobs those taxes used to pay for.
And all this from the mouth of a multi-millionaire whose somewhere in line to the Throne sitting round a Cabinet of other multi-millionaires. We're all in it together!

Eldo you might want to move the education debate here.

There are some things of this "Big Society" that seem good ideas. On it's own merits, Individual and collective responsibility for your local community rather than reliance on the state, seems good. I head that in America Council's decide their own tax and to an extent their own laws. I'm not sure how true that it is, but I think that if more power was given back to the communities, they could improve their areas. They know what needs to be done. And while I couldn't go round filling in holes in the roads, I do have two hands, and could help pick up litter on my local streets. Not that this is anything new mind, and I'm not sure if this "Big Society" will actually help the third sector. I can understand this looking like's a ploy to hide the cutting of funding from community based things, because it probably is. But "Big Society" sounds nicer to me, and we can all live in hope that it turns out to be a nice idea.

As for Egypt, the military will enjoy the power, (and wealth that it will surely bring them)- they can easily justify ruling for a bit anyway; no government yet, but they have to maintain law & order. I think the way that the army handled the whole affair will give them a bit of time, but if these civil liberties don't come in soon, people will be back out on the streets in their masses again.

Hopefully though, they hold fair and free elections straight away, and the people get a democratic country that they have craved for so long!

[Pettytyrant101]

i am all for giving power back to the communities- it just seems a bit rich to cut funding to services for the worst off, particular social care and mental health schemes, then turn round to local communities and say 'well if you want it do it yourselves for free.'
Even if the entire staff of a place are volunteers it still needs funds, for supplies, somewhere to meet etc Fund raising is a struggle for those who do it already, never mind adding a thousand new charities on the country overnight.

[Gandalf's Beard]

I couldn't do without it! Especially not on a day when the news on in the background is making me spit and scream!


PM Cameron is selling his 'Big Society' where volunteers take up the slack caused by his government slashing public spending.
Or in other words getting us to pay more taxes than we were and then asking us to do for free the jobs those taxes used to pay for.
And all this from the mouth of a multi-millionaire whose somewhere in line to the Throne sitting round a Cabinet of other multi-millionaires. We're all in it together!

Eldo you might want to move the education debate here.

There are some things of this "Big Society" that seem good ideas. On it's own merits, Individual and collective responsibility for your local community rather than reliance on the state, seems good. I head that in America Council's decide their own tax and to an extent their own laws. I'm not sure how true that it is, but I think that if more power was given back to the communities, they could improve their areas. They know what needs to be done. And while I couldn't go round filling in holes in the roads, I do have two hands, and could help pick up litter on my local streets. Not that this is anything new mind, and I'm not sure if this "Big Society" will actually help the third sector. I can understand this looking like's a ploy to hide the cutting of funding from community based things, because it probably is. But "Big Society" sounds nicer to me, and we can all live in hope that it turns out to be a nice idea.

As for Egypt, the military will enjoy the power, (and wealth that it will surely bring them)- they can easily justify ruling for a bit anyway; no government yet, but they have to maintain law & order. I think the way that the army handled the whole affair will give them a bit of time, but if these civil liberties don't come in soon, people will be back out on the streets in their masses again.

Hopefully though, they hold fair and free elections straight away, and the people get a democratic country that they have craved for so long!

There are NO "good ideas" in the "Big Society" SCAM!

Don't be fooled by the Rhetoric. It's all a ploy to Privatize every government institution in sight. There is NOTHING wrong with having a strong Central Government which funds all the Public Services as long as it has a Parliamentary Democracy. It's the only way to make sure that funding is spread out fairly to support everyone.

The Tories want the UK to look like the US...The Rich get all the benefits and don't have to pay taxes, and everyone else gets screwed.

As to Egypt. Who knows what will happen? Every "President" has been from the Military. Though it does seem like the Military are currently supporting the Anti-Mubarak forces, my guess is that they will continue to run the government, even after new "elections." Though if they support a more Democratic process and put a damper on corruption, it may not be all bad.

GB

[Pettytyrant101]

I remember when I was a kid the parents of the American children wouldn't let them see the Sun or have it in the house. They weren't even allowed to watch Benny Hill!
Why are Americans so squeamish about sex?

[Pettytyrant101]

To return for a moment to the education debate.

"And Petty, the problem isn't lack of discipline. You just don't have the same dysfunctions in Wealthier School Districts that one has in Poverty Riddled Urban School Districts, where teachers and students are operating under tremendous stress levels."- GB

Don't get me wrong GB- I am not advocating a return to beating children in class. However I do find it interesting that poverty was just as bad, if not worse, in previous generations and that discipline in schools was not the issue it is today.
I don't know why that is, but corporal punishment is one of the main differences between then and now and has to be considered on those grounds.
I am not a teacher, so I don't know how bad discipline really is, or if teachers feel they have the tools to deal with it.

[Kafria]

Hmmmm...

I can't speak for all schools only for my own. Now lets not get this out of proportion, there are a large number of good kids who behave in a manner you would expect, who are self disciplined and give their time and energy to the school and community in a big way. There are a small number of toe-rags who no matter what you do will not abide by the rules.

The issue, from my point of view is a serious lack of what educationalists like to term emotional literacy and basic social skills. with the group I ranted about before, there are fifteen of them, 4 are lovely kids endlessly frustrated by the others, two are plain bloody minded and the rest are nice enough kids, but have no basic self control. They say whatever comment comes into their head, continue their conversation, despite you standing in front of them and trying to get their attention, deny they have done anything wrong, even if you've watched them and become argumentative as I a 'picking on them' if I challenge them. Lack of self control and basic manners! the problem is, the number of kids without these core skills seems to be rising. I have a collegue who gets very annoyed when initiatives come in to 'teach' these skills in school as he feels this is the parents job! The fact of the matter is we are having to deal with more kids without these skills and they are clearly not getting them from home!

There has also been a change in the level of respect the professions get (not just teachers). If I had gone home from school and said a teacher had a go at me, I'd have had the third degree as to why. Now there are a number of parents who will believe the child without question (including the child who said I watched and laughed while other kids threw stuff at her, mum phoned to complain even though the child had been caught out in lies like this before). Now it is a good thing that childrens rights and opinions are valued more, but there seems to be a lack of balance in this. I cannot get a student I see smoking a letter home and follow up consequence unless I can find a cctv pic of them doing it as the parents will ask 'where is your proof?'

[Biffo Banks]

Iz coarse thar hungup wid Bibbicool bouldadush, thatz y! Zay doen mine vy o lance tho - seamz spessly agin wimmin at tymes!

[Pettytyrant101]

Mmmmm. Perhaps the solution would be education both at school and to would be parents in how to be a parent.
The problem as you put it seems to stem from a lack of parental skills. Of course is if its not a lack of parental skills but a complete lack of willingness to put them into practice then its a bigger problem. If there are parents who simply aren't interested or are too lazy even when they know what they should be doing, then I'm not sure what the state can do in those circumstances.
But I agree with your colleague that its not a schools job to teach basic manners, that should already have been learned by school age.

[Kafria]

I don't disagree that you hope manners are taught at home, however if we continue to believe in education as a leveller for those from less affluent bakgrounds hen some of this work needs to be done in school for those that aren't getting it at home.The difficulty comes as the numbers increase. Kids learn their social skills from each other too! when most are well mannered it helps those without parental role models. When more of them don't have this role model the poor behaviour becomes the social norm and this is whats re-enforced.

[Eldorion]

I remember when I was a kid the parents of the American children wouldn't let them see the Sun or have it in the house. They weren't even allowed to watch Benny Hill!
Why are Americans so squeamish about sex?

A cultural relic of being a country partially founded by religious factions that mainstream European churches didn't like.

At least that's my hypothesis.