Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [2]

[Orwell]

Well, Eldo, sometimes, I need to bring in the big guns, a bottle of wine and a bowl of strawberries... but it is expensive, so it's not like it's an every night thing...

Oh yes, I also have to listen to her talk about her day, understand her feelings and offer supportive (not 'directive') thoughts (to prove I'm listening), and then if she hasn't got too much to unburden herself about, well.. then...

You know, sometimes I wish she cold be a little more succinct, because if she shares her feelings for too long she's usually too tired to be... ummm... friendly by the time she's finished talking.... I guess she sleeps happily after that - which is good - I guess....

[Orwell]

I believe the traditional roles do pluck some deep string that each of the sexes responds to, but a whole lot of very equal intellect has been plopped on top of the deeper nurturer/protector roles. I prefer that the roles be played as a mutual game with the understanding that we don't see them as 'real', just something we both go through to pluck those deep strings. Normally the gender roles should be ignored, only trotted out to help get in the primordial mood as needed.

I think a man and a woman should work out what they want between them free of isms of any kind.

[azriel]

You are quite right in what you say,ORWELL, Women are the equal half of men. Theres an old saying "women shall inherit the Earth", I dont think "inherit",but certainly be on an even par. Theres just as many highly skilled & intelligent women as there are men. Theres also as many "dappy" women as there are men to. I just dont understand why some men see women as inferior ? For some men it seems to be part of their DNA ? Ive a good friend who also thinks as you do, but, after speaking to the "yokels" down here,it seems he is in a minority ? Men still assume women are a "plaything", house cleaner,child minder, & a "nag"?. How many guys dont like having a female boss ? Do men refer to cars,boats etc as "she" because men "use" them ? Education is the answer,I think.

[Orwell]

Men still assume women are a "plaything", house cleaner,child minder, & a "nag"?".

I feel they are a lot more than that!

How many guys dont like having a female boss?"

I spent seven years working under and with women (about '79 to '86). They were collectively the best group of people I ever worked with. Their politics varied but their intelligence could not be doubted. I learned to mind my 'p's' and 'q's' back then. If I said anything stupid, they'd tell me. (I used to talk less back then! ) I get away with more nowadays. Women are pussycats nowadays compared to some of those fire breathing Feminists. (I might even have been seduced by one or two of them, but a gentleman never blabs).

Do men refer to cars,boats etc as "she" because men "use" them?"

I think of my car as 'he'! Oh myyyy God!

Education is the answer,I think.

I remember a staunch Feminist telling me that 'men' needed to be 'educated'. It was the first time I can ever remember being patronized by a woman. Which is probably why I feel for women (and children) who are condescended to; so some good might have come of it.

[azriel]

Im not trying to patronise,far from it ! I meant,in my clumsy way,that general education to ALL people about Both men & women & the many gifts & skills Both can offer, is to be recognised, so that we can ALL get along. (hopefully) Not pointing a finger & saying "you do this, & you do that" ?

[Orwell]

Talking about Bosses - I recently had the worst Boss I've ever had. And she was a Woman. In fact, a Lesbian Woman. I suspect she got the job because she was a Woman and a Lesbian. Drove me nuts. I told my next boss (a Woman one rank up) that I could not work under her. It was not a 'it's either her or me" conversation, but a 'if she stays, I can't stay.' (Which could be the same thing I guess, depending on how you look at it).

Anyway, my Female Boss got moved somewhere else at the same promotional level. She's in a place with lots of Sergeants and a bigger staff where her negative impact is more diluted. I'm running the section now. Go Man Power!

I deal with a lot of Women (both internal and external customers, if you know what mean) and have absolutely no problem relating to them. I treat them fairly and flirt notoriously with some of the Women from Women's Agencies - who are as bad as Mrs Figg at times! (Victims of Violence I treat a little differently - as one should never oppress or prey on the vulnerable. My role there is to help them where I can, and I get paid to do it, which is the best of both worlds for me! )

My Lesbian friend had little or no capacity to treat anyone fairly and with understanding (male or female), and it was this as much as anything else that made it impossible for me to work under her. She may as well have been a Male Tyrant. I wasn't the only one who could not work with her btw. I just spoke up. I have little tolerance for bullshit.

[Orwell]

Im not trying to patronise,far from it ! I meant,in my clumsy way,that general education to ALL people about Both men & women & the many gifts & skills Both can offer, is to be recognised, so that we can ALL get along. (hopefully) Not pointing a finger & saying "you do this, & you do that" ?

I knew that. You just made me think of it. It was just an example of a Woman being patronizing - without knowing it. And only the way it was said.

Another Feminist once told me I could not be a Feminist, just a Sensitive Male. I felt very patronized by the comment. (But I didn't let her see me cry though - I did that in the boy's toilets later! Furious! I was furious! ..Well, not really - but it's a good tale, innit?)

[Pettytyrant101]

Well Ive 20 years of expreience working a predominantly female environment.
Care work is still seen as best suited to a woman- not a stereotype that in my experience holds up as all the worst treatment I have seen of people by staff were all carried out by women.
I would reckon the balance between decent people and complete bastards is roughly equal in the sexes.
Men can be more compassionate, caring and emphetic than some women and vice versa.
Both sides play up to gender roles however- very few modern women would go without makeup or shaving/waxing/plucking, men still all start posturing when a women walks in.
Some things I doubt will ever go away because we need them to keep the species going, stupid as a lot of it is.

But feminists do my head in- my Gran used to say "I dont have time for feminists. I'm to busy getting on with it."

[azriel]

Orwell: I do get you, I didnt want to be rude or upset anyone with my duffus replies ! ONE of my faults is,that I seem to put my foot in my mouth to often, I jump before I think,.......now wheres my chocolate...

[Orwell]

Not offended in the least.. a bit theatrical i am (folk here will tell you that's true!), but pretty hard to offend. Nothing duffus in what you said. Though if you're really upset, you could always send me those chocolates...

[azriel]

F**k NO ! I love my choc, its mine ! all mine !!

[Pettytyrant101]

Is the best way to get releected PM of Israel to murder Palistinians?
Discuss.

[Mrs Figg]

I dont use make-up, wax, pluck, shave. much

[azriel]

I only shave... my "Brad Pitts", or Id have 2 nesting hedgehogs there !, I do my legs if Im not in jeans, but since I AM in jeans.......

[Pettytyrant101]

There are moments when I am very proud of my fellow countrymen!

Protesters have taken part in a march and rally in Edinburgh in support of the Palestinian people.
Marchers urged the Scottish government to call for an end to what they described as an "ongoing massacre" in Gaza.
The rally in Edinburgh was supported by a number of groups, including the Scottish Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War and the Scottish Trades Union Congress.
A Scottish government spokesman said it was wrong to collectively punish the people of Gaza for the actions of their government.

[Eldorion]

Glad to hear Scotland speaking out against this.

[halfwise]

Any news reports I can find on this are very vague, making me hesitant to comment. But it does seem Gaza militants struck first in this case, and then the typical mideast response to to strike back 5 times as hard and things just go nuts.

I'm afraid this may a huge mess that no outside players will have any effect on. Both sides have legitimate grievances but right now it looks like the only way these will be addressed is by force.

[Pettytyrant101]

For me it all seems like a horrible rerun of deuteronomy to me.
I have little sympathy here for Israel I'm afraid- yes rockets launched from Gaza are a bad and terrible thing, any loss of Jewish life is likewise terrible - but Israel has long been the agressor here. They have been land stealing, driving families from their homes and stifling and penning them within a walled cage- they have destroyed the Palestinian economy to such a point it is no longer a viable state politically or economically.
This is a fight between a people on their knees with limited weaponry, no military worth the name and no defences against a country with a modern, top of the range military capacity and a defence shield capable of intercepting 80-90% of any of the limited attacks coming there way.
I hate bullies and Israel is a bully.

[halfwise]

I totally agree Israel is the long-standing bully here, but they can't just stand around while missiles are fired. I wish I could know exactly how they are responding because all reports get hyped. I don't think Israel is quite as bad as most reports make them, just as the typical view of the rock-throwing Palestinians is unfair. Very difficult to get an unbiased view of either side ever since Israel was first formed.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yeah and they throw a rock and Israel shoot them- they fire a missile (99% of which have missed- there has only been 1 hit in this exchange from the Palestinians) and you get a section of your city blown up.
Israel has been in breach of the UN for decades regarding illegal settlements- their response? Take more land, move more Palestinians out build more Jewish homes on the land (incidentally keeping the main water sources so the Palestinians cannot even farm the crappy land they get given).
And because no one has confronted Israel over their actions in any meaningful way simply emboldens them to continue what they are doing.
And for me saying they have the right because God said so just does not cut it, or justify their actions in any way whatsoever.

If England invaded Scotland, forcibly moved me and my family from my home to give it to English people, then built a big wall to encircle my people within so as to control all trade in and out and all movements of people, I'd pick up whatever comes to hand and fight back. Why we condemn Palestinians for doing the same I will never understand.

[halfwise]

The land grabbing is the least justifiable of israel's many sins. But I think their retaliations have been exaggerated. You can find alternate reports from inside the israeli security apparatus that documents how they try to minimize civilian casualties.

There's on famous case where it was reported Israel bulldozed a row of houses just to take out one terrorist cell in that row. What they actually did is went through the row of houses: the reasoning behind that style of attack was that if they had approached in the open it would have produced a firefight with casualties on both sides, mainly among the un-armored Palestinians. it was a question of property damage versus lives.

A good antidote to some of this is to read "Son of Hamas" about the son of one of the early leaders of Hamas (before it took it's violent turn) who became an agent for the Israelis, and his reasons for doing so. He of course hated the Israelis, but eventually became convinced they were not the monsters he thought they were.

[David H]

Both sides have legitimate grievances but right now it looks like the only way these will be addressed is by force.

This is the crux of the problem. I've talked to both Palestinians and Israelis who say almost exactly the same thing, "We've tried talking to them but it never works. Force is the only language they understand. They're like animals." The last phrase more from Israelis. It's easier for the aggressor to kill people if they dehumanize them first. And the body counts are overwhelmingly Palestinian.

In this case I understand that there were ongoing minor boarder conflicts, followed by an Israeli retaliatory assassination of a top Gaza militant, followed by retaliatory militant missile fire, followed by retaliatory airstrikes. It's hard to say who started anything, but the trend is escalation on both sides, and the body counts are almost always on the Palestinian side which makes Israeli claims of proportional force hard to justify.

The trouble is that both Likud and Hamas need the conflict to continue if they're to be relevant politically, so neither has an incentive for de-escalation. There are many moderates on both sides who remember the time before the second intifada fondly. There were plenty of steps that could have kept moderates in power, but instead a culture of violence has continued to grow.

It's sad. The answers were once relatively easy, but they seem to get farther away with every passing year.

[Mrs Figg]

Has there ever been peace in that part of the world?, it seems they have been fighting for 2000 years or more. Before, they just got on with it, now it drags the whole world in with them. If that lot kick off, its bad news for everyone. I shudder to think of the consequences.

[halfwise]

If America withdrew financial support from Israel, it wouldn't last long. I wish the USA would use this leverage to stop the infuriating settlement building which keeps stirring things up. Without it there is at least a chance of peace, with new construction there is no chance.

If there was wholesale dismantling of settlements in Palestinian territories this all would be over in a matter of months. But that would probably lead to armed conflict between the Israeli army and the settlers, and I doubt the government would survive the backlash.

[Pettytyrant101]

I shudder to think of the consequences.- Mrs Figg

It could go very pear shaped indeed. If Israeli aggression escalates to a ground invasion of Gaza there is a possibilty, no matter the intention of the Egyptian government, that the Egyptian people will force their government's hand into defending Palestinians. Then Iran would get involved, and Iraq is already making noises.
And Israel faced with even just Egypt or Iran backing Hamas would need to call on the US- the involvement of the US would in turn force Russia to come in on the Arab side.
Worst case scenario it just keeps escalating.

Halfwise- I agree- dismantling the settlements on illegally occupied teritory is a must and returing the land to the Palestinians, but doing so would not be tolerated it seems by the Jewish populace, so to a large degree their hands are tied.
This notion of Israel 'restoring' its boundaries to some arbitary level from long in the past must be challenged and stopped. Its just an excuse to steal homes, destroy lives and disenfranchise an entire people.
There are times when I think the only thing the Jewish people learnt from the Holocaust is how to conduct one.
Its also an election year in Israel and the ruling party up till now have been losing a lot of ground to left of centre parties, but almost noone changes government in themiddle of a war. Making the whole thing seem like a disgusting, murderous elecition campaign.