UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

{{ Not exactly a suprpise what hes been up to, not like clues havent been there for decades! }}

{{ Another resignation, on the Labour side this time, and a scathing resignation letter on Corbyn, McCluskey and the Unite/Momentum control of the party. }}

{{ well my take away form the Borix v Corbyn debate is that the British people think both of them are worth derision.
Both leaders got laughed at openly by the audience- Boris for saying he tells the truth and Corbyn a few times, mainly for his Brexit position of not having a position and again for saying his plans for a 4 day working week would be paid for from 'increased productivity'. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Both leaders got laughed at openly by the audience- Boris for saying he tells the truth and Corbyn a few times,}}

Hey, maybe if politics doesn't work out for them they might even have a future as the next great British comedy duo!
Look out Two Ronnies, you've got competition!

{{ Well we've got the Labour manifesto- presented literally in a little red book, which granted is appropriate given its contents.

So here we go.

4.3% increase on the health budget on top of the already promised amounts. Problem here is they are also going to have to cover revenue lost from giving free prescriptions, dentistry and free hospital parking. They are also going to cut out the outsourcing to any private sector health companies (about 7% of the NHS in England and Wales) but given the problem, especially in England and Wales of long waiting times it seems likely this policy would only add to that problem if the NHS has to take back on that 7% of patients- who is going to treat them, where will they be staying for treatment given current infrastructure, Doctor and nurses numbers are not sufficient for what they currently have?

Raise the minimum wage from the current £8.21 to £10 an hour. As this will be entirely funded by employers its just a massive cost on business. If this goes through I'm almost certainly out of a job as the hotel I work in will probably close- our margins are already so tight that its not uncommon for head office to say hours have to be cut to reduce the wage bill as is, if they have to pay that amount to all staff its just not affordable or sustainable. I also know as I have family with small businesses that it would either plunge them into debt to meet the cost or more likely force a reduction in the amount of people they employ.

On Brexit Labour say they will negotiate a new deal with the EU within 3 months (given how long its taken to get htis far that claim seems laughable) then put it to the people in another referendum alongside a leave or remain option.
I don't know how this referendum would work- it looks like a stitch up to split the leave vote so remain wins by default, as those who want to leave but dont want a hard brexit might vote for the Labour leave plan, those who want full Brexit will vote for straight leave, splitting the leave vote in two whilst there is only a single remain option for all remainers to vote for. Smells dodgy as hell and contentious.
Also Labour's leave deal woulds still have to pass the House and that's seems even more unlikely. And of course Labour won't say if they will campaign to leave, remain or even if they will support their own deal!

On nationalisation they plan to nationalise all the energy companies, the national grid, the water companies, Royal Mail, the railways and take over BT's broadband wing in order to give everyone in the country high speed broadband for free. All at a minimum cost of only £196 billion.
Hello the 1970's!- union hell, strikes, constant random power cuts,  and this time probably terrible internet service too with no other choice for the consumer to turn to. The cost of buying all this is really uncosted as they'd have to pay whatever the market worth at the time they do it is- but its a minimum of £196 billion.

They are going to abolish tuition fees, at an approximate cost of 12 billion, per year. And plan to increase education budget by a further 10.2 billion.

A £250 billion green transformation fund and free bus travel for everyone under 25- how exactly bus companies will operate therefore is a bit of a mystery.

100,000 new council houses and 50,000 housing association homes. And capping private rents (the main effect of which will probably be to make less private accommodation for rent putting more pressure on the council house market). This is another policy the cost of which is in the billions.

Raise corporation tax by over 10% to 28%- this would increase tax revenue but also cut inward investment, as it would make us far less competitive for corporation rates than most of our neighbours. And combined with hammering anyone with wealth with swinging tax hikes is likely to further put off those looking for somewhere to invest in and create their business.

Those are the headline grabbing ones at least and if your eyes aren't watering at the cost they probably should be as Labour claim all this can be paid for solely by taxing 'big business' and the top 5% and the rest of us just get it all for free- needless to say this has been shot down by everyone and their dog today with any knowledge of the economy.
Make no mistake all these billions being borrowed isn't free money, its being borrowed in our name and when the time comes it will be us the taxpayer paying it off, forever. It also assumes the very rich, those 5% wont just up stakes and bugger off somewhere cheaper and we'd get no revenue form them at all.


Last time Labour were in power they left office leaving behind a note saying 'sorry all the moneys gone' and left us with 10 years of austerity and a broken economy which is only just starting to recover. And the Blair/Brown years spent nothing like this amount of our money. The sheer scale of borrowing alone required to pay for this is mind-boggling.

No wonder they published it in a little red book, Chairman Mao would be proud. }}

{{ More back to the 1970's from Labour, prepare for the country to be ground to a halt by strike action if Labour win!

'Asked whether a Labour government would restore secondary picketing - where a picket line is set up at a firm not included in the main strike - Mr McDonnell said a Labour government would "make sure that people have the right to withdraw their labour" if they wish to do so.
Pushed on whether people could close down a school or hospital in sympathy with the rail unions, Mr McDonnell added: "People will have the right to withdraw their labour, but let's be absolutely clear, what we're doing now by these structural reforms is making sure everyone has a vested interest in their company or their public utility." - BBC

And in another interview he said-

'Mr McDonnell says the range of policies Labour is putting forward, including strengthening trade union rights and having worker representation on company boards, would protect wages from cuts.'

Which just means strikes! His argument here is all this extra they are charging businesses wont affect employment or wages because the workers can strike and demand higher wages as part of the board! God help us if Labour win, and same if Tories win. This is the Kobyashi Maru of elections- its a no-win scenario. Trotsky Corbyn or Bastard Boris! }}

"Last time Labour were in power they left office leaving behind a note saying 'sorry all the moneys gone' and left us with 10 years of austerity and a broken economy which is only just starting to recover. And the Blair/Brown years spent nothing like this amount of our money. The sheer scale of borrowing alone required to pay for this is mind-boggling." Petty

That is the myth that Tory enemies of the Labour party always trot out, and its deeply misleading.  its not backed up by the  facts.  It was the world-wide financial crash which skuppered the Brown government. The UK was experiencing growth before the crash, its true that the Brown government ran a large budget deficit which was probably a bit daft, but the Tories ruthlessly pursuing austerity was a deliberate choice not a necessity.

That is the myth that Tory enemies of the Labour party always trot out...- Figg

{{ Sadly not a myth.

'‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever
Liam Byrne....The final years of Gordon Brown’s government were tough...the recession slashed Treasury tax receipts by over £40bn, forcing us to borrow to keep public services on the go and get Britain back on its feet. And because the deficit was big, the responsible thing to do was draw up a long-term plan to cut spending...As chief secretary, I spent bruising months negotiating £32bn of annual savings..I made it easy for our opponents to bash our economic record by bashing me. And for millions of people and businesses who have had to make such sacrifices over the last five years, there was nothing funny about the national debt when the national task of cutting it has brought them such pain in their everyday life...David Cameron may have carried that note around with him during the campaign. But I, too, have carried it every day – in my head. I always will. As a reminder of how much harder I will always have to work to repay the people I let down and to help rebuild Labour.'- Guardian

Straight from the horses mouth. Yes the tories exploited the situation to cut services far more than required and to blame Labour for a world wide recesion, which they were not responsible for- but how badly Britain was positioned for it when it happened was their fault. And as I said befre they were not spending even a tenth of what Corbyn proposes to now. Imagine if another outside event causes trouble in the global economy and we're ten times in the amount of debt we were in last time it happened? We would be fucked. }}

I think we have the same problem with the Democrats swinging too far left into socialism. If Warren or Sanders are nominated I feel sure Trump would win. They would have had a chance if the Trump economy wasn't as good as it is, but people won't risk giving that up.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:That is the myth that Tory enemies of the Labour party always trot out...- Figg

{{ Sadly not a myth.

'‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever
Liam Byrne....The final years of Gordon Brown’s government were tough...the recession slashed Treasury tax receipts by over £40bn, forcing us to borrow to keep public services on the go and get Britain back on its feet. And because the deficit was big, the responsible thing to do was draw up a long-term plan to cut spending...As chief secretary, I spent bruising months negotiating £32bn of annual savings..I made it easy for our opponents to bash our economic record by bashing me. And for millions of people and businesses who have had to make such sacrifices over the last five years, there was nothing funny about the national debt when the national task of cutting it has brought them such pain in their everyday life...David Cameron may have carried that note around with him during the campaign. But I, too, have carried it every day – in my head. I always will. As a reminder of how much harder I will always have to work to repay the people I let down and to help rebuild Labour.'- Guardian

Straight from the horses mouth. Yes the tories exploited the situation to cut services far more than required and to blame Labour for a world wide recesion, which they were not responsible for- but how badly Britain was positioned for it when it happened was their fault. And as I said befre they were not spending even a tenth of what Corbyn proposes to now. Imagine if another outside event causes trouble in the global economy and we're ten times in the amount of debt we were in last time it happened? We would be fucked. }}

That was a joke letter left for his successor, but the Tories have been dining out on it for years. Byrne has always said he regrets the joke as it backfired spectacularly when Cameron waved it around as 'proof'.

{{ He also says-  

'because the deficit was big, the responsible thing to do was draw up a long-term plan to cut spending...As chief secretary, I spent bruising months negotiating £32bn of annual savings'

So whilst the Tories cut further than necessary we were stil in the shit because of Labours deficit and borrowing, and we had to borrow a shit more just to keep public services going-

'the recession slashed Treasury tax receipts by over £40bn, forcing us to borrow to keep public services on the go'

So even had Labour stayed in power we would still have faced years of austerity under Labour to correct the problem at a cost of 32 billion in cuts every year till it was fixed, and we still had to borrow billions just to keep going.

Now imagine the same thing happens again, another global recession hits, only this time when it does we are in 10 times more debt and with massive borrowing when it happens. And under Labour current plans not only would we have massive deficits and massive borrowing but as they plan for the government to own so much, and would therefore be running more and fiscally responsible for much more, the amount we'd need to borrow to keep it all going would be many times the amount we had to borrow last recession. And the cuts that would have to follow to sort it would be equally enormous and last even longer. We'd be screwed. }}

so are you telling me seriously that the UK will be better off under the Tories? that they wont be spending billions on HS2 and racking up massive debt here there and everywhere? Its fine and dandy having a pop at Labour because they are the SNPs rivals, but blaming the current Labour cabinet for the sins of Blair and Brown is stretching credibility way too far.

If I'm reading this correctly, both parties will rack up debt, they just do it on different things. We've got the same problem. We had it under control with Clinton...the key is to elect moderates (they mainly cut military spending without adding to social spending). A vanishing breed these days.

so are you telling me seriously that the UK will be better off under the Tories?...blaming the current Labour cabinet for the sins of Blair and Brown is stretching credibility way too far.- Figg


{{ I have already said for the sake of Scotland Id prefer Labour- but only so we can get the hell away as soon as possible- I think Corbyn is a far left wing disaster.
I have also said I think the Tories would be a nightmare too, and very bad for Scotland and would conduct a power grab on the devolved administrations.
But just because Labour is the better choice for what I hope to achieve, Scottish independence from Westminster it doesn't make it a good choice.
In the words of the Doctor- 'sometimes the only choices you have are bad ones but you still have to choose.'
Fortunately I can choose to vote for neither and vote SNP and will do.

And I am not blaming the current lot for the sins of Blair/Brown I am saying look at the economic mess they left us in and Corbyn is planning to do what they did tenfold. I was using it as a comparison of last time Labour did this when it was not anywhere near as far left as current Labour policy in order to show that if the same happens again, global recession, the damage this time would likewise be ten times greater.

both parties will rack up debt, they just do it on different things.- Halfy

Both main parties are pledging to borrow to spend, where the real difference lies is in the scale of it with Labour are planning to spend and borrow several times the amount the Tories appear to be (though we cant be 100% sure yet how much they are pledging to borrow or spend until Monday when we see their manifesto). They are also not planning to buy up half the countries private sector and screw the other half over with higher corporation tax, increased wages and other burdens falling solely on the employers and businesses. }}

Over here the Democrats are at least honest about how much they'll spend. The Republicans claim they'll bring down spending, then they cut all the social programs and end up spending more than the Democrats do by throwing it all at what is already the strongest military on earth.

{{ Oddly the Tories here are trying hard to not look like a bunch of right wingers, by which I mean many of their pledges so far would in the US be condemned as far left socialiast policies. So they plan to increase spending on the NHS, build more hospitals and council houses and increase spending on the environment. These are largely an attempt to not be seen as the 'nasty party' and so bolster their credentials when it comes to public services like the the NHS- of course those services are only in the state they are in thanks to Tory policy of the last 10 years so its a pretty thin sticking plaster and hard to see why people would believe them after last time.
Take their pledge to build more affordable homes, we've heard it before as this bit of brilliance demonstrates-



You cant trust a word Tories say, even less so under Boris. }}

{{ Tonights QT debate where the main leaders, Boris, Corbyn, Swinson and Sturgeon face questions from the audience.



Noising around the pundits reviewing the aftermath, what the papers are saying and whats on social media Sturgeon seems to have come out as the best performer (no surprise really as compared to the others she is an old hand at this sort of thing being by far the longest serving leader) both Boris and Corbyn had some very tricky moments and Swinson, poor Swinson got a hammering.
But stand out of the debate was the audience who had good questions and didn't take any shit. }}

yep Sturgeon came out with the least aggressive questions but that's because it was an English audience and she doesn't effect their lives directly. I thought that Swinson did badly, she came off as a top-lofty sixth former, and her voting record was very damaging. As for Johnson , I thought Jezza did ok notwithstanding the idiot audience banging on about anti-Semitism, considering he is not a racist and never was a racist. Some of the so called questions were moronic.

The Guardian really don't like Bozza Johnson

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2019/nov/21/steve-bell-on-jeremy-corbyn-launching-the-labour-manifesto-cartoon

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2019/nov/19/steve-bells-boris-johnson-if-cartoon

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2019/nov/14/steve-bells-if-johnson-and-farage-please-buddy-trump

That twat Johnson is going to win.   its really depressing but I suppose I might as well accept it.

{{ Its not over yet, but its not very hopeful when the polls stubbornly have the Tories at least 10 points clear with no change at all so far }}

If he wins I am giving up interest in politics for good. I give up.

{{ Corbyns utter crash car interview with Andrew Neil }}

jeez that was embarrassing, all he said was "Andrew" "Andrew" "let me finish Andrew"

Why didn't he just go on the attack and tell Neil that the Head Rabbi should, a) keep his nose out of politics and b) stop talking crap and c) He is not going to sell bombs to Netanyahu when he is PM d) he is not going to apologise for supporting the Palestinians... and Zionism is not a religion its a state, so how can it be anti-Semitic.....so Neil you can fuck right off!.

if the Arch Bish of Anglicans started saying the Tories are poisoning society because of their anti Islamic shenanigans there would be outrage and much shouting in the media, but because its Corbyn, he is fair game. But FFS man get a grip, Andrew Neil is a Tory attack dog scenting blood, GET A FUCKING GRIP CORBYN!!