UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

I've been following the posturing and negotiations on this one since Cameron first brought it up two or three years ago but it's actually happening now. Referendum is scheduled for June 23. Cameron negotiated his new deal with Europe which, from my perspective, doesn't seem like much, and also has yet to be ratified by the other EU member states. Most of the Cabinet is following Cameron's lead, and almost all of the opposition parties are in favor of remaining too, but with Boris Johnson jumping on the leave campaign today it got a much-needed dose of credibility.

Thoughts from our UK members?

You've hit a brick wall with me Eldo I know it will affect me & I should pay some attention to politics but the truth is......... I dont ! I used to, I used to immerse myself but, all I got was a restless sleep, headache & a pissed off attitude Now, I dont give a fook & my blood pressure remains stable You know more about these things than I do & I live here !

I for one want us to stay in Europe, partly because I don't like the unknown aspects of leaving and it damaging the economy, and partly for purely selfish reasons because it will affect my status in Italy if I become extracomunitario. I would be on a par with non European immigrants rather than in the cozy Euro community. I will have to get dual citizenship in that case and it costs at least 200 euros just to start the ball rolling.
I admire Boris having the balls to follow his beliefs but I reckon he is banking on Brexit and a way through the backdoor to number 10. Cameron would probably resign leaving the field open to Boris which isn't a bad idea. I cannot take the other well known 'outers' seriously, Farage and co, and in particular that evil piece of human excrement, Iian Duncan Smith. It would be good to see Brexit fail just to see the smirk wiped of that fuckwit face.

@azriel, well, avoiding getting to emotionally worked up over politics is generally a good thing in my book. Yes, there are important issues at stake, but getting angry means you've already lost. I find it fascinating though.

@Figg, I knew what position Farage would take, but seeing Gove and Duncan Smith leading the out charge definitely gave me reservations too. Gotta agree with you on Boris' likely ulterior motive too. The direction the referendum goes will definitely be a big boost to either him or Osborne in the next Conservative leadership election.

I can see merit in both sides of the in/out debate, but from my perspective, I find the broader issue of sovereignty to be more interesting and important than stuff like child benefit. Cameron securing a treaty exemption to "ever closer union" is by far the most significant concession he won, IMO. Curious to see if it'll be enough.

Boris has been tapping shoulders for years. Hes like a child trying to get "miss" to like him at school. But on this occasion Im on his side for this. He's had his hair brained ideas & we all say "that Boris ! he's so funny" No one takes him seriously as he acts too naturally, meaning he acts & speaks like an ordinary man & not in that old school Greek the Top Tories are so fond off. I dont like the hefty amounts of our money going into the pot of Europe for a start. I dont honestly see how staying in the Euro Market has boosted our economy or even kept it stable ? more & more businesses are closing every week, work requisites are going abroad, factories closing down, This country is in a shoddy state to say the least & thats with us staying in the Euro.

Eldorion wrote:

@Figg, I knew what position Farage would take, but seeing Gove and Duncan Smith leading the out charge definitely gave me reservations too. Gotta agree with you on Boris' likely ulterior motive too. The direction the referendum goes will definitely be a big boost to either him or Osborne in the next Conservative leadership election.

I can see merit in both sides of the in/out debate, but from my perspective, I find the broader issue of sovereignty to be more interesting and important than stuff like child benefit. Cameron securing a treaty exemption to "ever closer union" is by far the most significant concession he won, IMO. Curious to see if it'll be enough.

I think there are a couple of issues which are irritants to the average man in the street regarding emotive things like child benefit and border controls, and which Farage will seek to highlight, and as you said, the larger picture of sovereignty, which is more nebulous, and is which Boris will seek to highlight. its two sides to the same Brexit coin. the popular issues and the highbrow issues. I doubt Boris will ever mention welfare issues, he will want to keep his feet out of the muck and stick to discussing more elevated issues, such as sovereignty and such like. I doubt the average Brit feels very European though.

Eldorion wrote:

Thoughts from our UK members?

Az has put it best:

I know it will affect me & I should pay some attention to politics but the truth is......... I dont

You know more about these things than I do & I live here !

To be totally honest, at this point I neither care nor know very much about the issues at stake, I don't feel particularly European (never actually been outside England), and I'd personally prefer if the UK were to regain tighter controls of our Borders and criminal legislation, but from the little I've read the arguments for leaving the E.U seem to come from the heart, rather than the mind, economically it could prove a disaster.

No idea how I'll vote, as to totally frank, I have never really given much of a thought/sh*t about the EU before, and I suspect many people I know feel the same way.

It's worth noting Petty, as a very politically aware pro-indy Scotshobbit will probably have a very different viewpoint to those from Southen England.

I happen to think its really important and will have ramifications for the future that we wont probably notice for a long while, whether good or bad. But I think Brexit would be a step backwards and is very short sighted. ok we need some serious reform, but this isn't the way to solve anything. its really unfortunate timing, the migrant thing is going to screw the votes towards exit. People will get fixated with strong borders and siege mentality, when leaving the European Union wouldn't affect anything or mean we suddenly have secure borders.

Mrs Figg wrote:I happen to think its really important and will have ramifications for the future that we wont probably notice for a long while, whether good or bad. But I think Brexit would be a step backwards and is very short sighted. ok we need some serious reform, but this isn't the way to solve anything. its really unfortunate timing, the migrant thing is going to screw the votes towards exit. People will get fixated with strong borders and siege mentality, when leaving the European Union wouldn't affect anything or mean we suddenly have secure borders.

Mostly agree with you here Figgsy (I suspect many of the Yes votes will be protest votes driven by anger/concerns over the migrant crisis) but I think in general much of the English media at least (not sure whether this holds true for the rest of the Union) had become steadily more right leaning-even the tabloids like The Sun/Star etc seem to blame as much as they can on Europe or immigration...

People aren't idiots, but people are also p*ssed about immigration and angry at the endless parade of self serving politicians, I think many will be swayed by the Yes vote if only because it promises change of some sort.

I must admit it is tempting to vote Yes if only to see Nigel Farage out of a job...

its a toss up who is more self serving amongst that lot on either side. I think the outers are more self serving by a mile going off who they are. Farage is rubbing his hands together over this, and Duncan Smith is just getting revenge on Cameron for taking over the leadership after he got booted out for incompetence. I hope once Brexit has failed that Cameron finds some way to get rid of him once and for all. he is one of the most odious creeps in history.

*coughs* During the Scotshobbitsis indi referendum Mr Cameron put on quite the show that by going indi we would be out of the EU automatically, and that was a bad thing.

Now it's a good thing?

But then Mr David Cameron, our Prime Minister is a two faced liar.

lets face it, they all are.
They are just career politicians who will stab each other in the back when it suits. I don't know what Boris is playing at though, its a very risky move on his part. Duncan Smith is hoping that Brexit will mean a Euro sceptic PM who will give him a top job. He knows with Cameron as PM he doesn't stand a chance of advancement, as they all know what a useless cretin he is.

this disgusting excuse for a human should be sacked.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2015/08/21/lie-after-lie-over-sanctions-and-foi-duncan-smiths-head-should-roll/

Nagual - not sure Cameron has said being out is a good thing?

I am voting to stay!

This pathetic excuse for a human should be hung from his own entrails

{{{{{{Damn Pure Publications and their Reason Bloody marketing- I cant resist politics! so much too say on this subject- hey maybe Figg's pussy can relate the meat of it to others?!

Anyhow seems the Tories have taken to discussing the EU issue in elvish -

@GuidoFawkes @JohnRentoul Ma mauya? There's still time for you to turn away from the Power of Mordor, @GavinBarwellMP. A tule asenye!

@DanHannanMEP @GuidoFawkes @JohnRentoul Anin apsene, much as I admire your Quenya I'm following the guy who helped win my seat last May

@GavinBarwellMP @GuidoFawkes @JohnRentoul Fair enough. We'll miss you. Ne minuial tôl lû ir tirich er-'îl gelair awarthannen.

So there is that oddness to add to the mix.

Odd also how much Cameron sounds exactly like he did during the Scottish referendum- so far Ive heard him describe staying in as 'the best of both worlds' and out as a 'leap in the dark'- Project Fear getting resurrected- if not sure that's a good idea-ok they won the Scottish referendum but they also went from over a 30 point lead in the polls to coming down to 5% in the end.

Talking Scotland I am not so sure that Scotland will vote to stay in by as large a margin as the SNP seem to believe- Scots get the same massively biased right wing media the rest of the UK is subjected too afterall.

Although interestingly, a bit like the referendum this might be a win/win for the SNP- if Scotland votes to stay in and England to leave they have a case for a new indie referendum, if Scotland votes to leave and so does England then a load of powers currently through the EU but handled at Westminster- like agriculture policy, fisheries ect would default not to Westminster but to the Scottish Parliament boosting its power and influence and so the SNP's.
And if Westminster try to take those powers for themselves they will have a hard time- especially over fishery policy considering more than 90% of UK fishing is done in Scottish waters by Scottish fleets.

On the matter of Boris its blatantly a move for the PM- he is gambling on a No vote, on him being its public face and champion, on Cameron having to stand down in the aftermath and as Osbourne, the main contender for PM to Boris, is also on the YES side Boris has calculated a NO vote secures him the party grass root vote and so the leadership. I suspect he also thinks that even if the vote is to stay in Europe the grass roots will still oppose Europe and be even less likely to forgive Osbourne for campaigning to stay in and he still wins- much as the SNP lost the referendum but only got stronger on the result despite this.
He's a shrewd political operator Boris, don't be fooled by that floppy haired rich toff idiot act, its just an act, he is one of the most intellectual and political beasts in current UK politics.

For the record my own position on this currently is that I would rather we stay in the EU and work for reform and influence the direction from inside, because it does need reform no doubt about that- but the cost of leaving, and I don't mean financial, is too hight- the thought that the last arbitrators of human and workers rights be the Tory party is not a pleasant notion at all. Also Scotland has a lot of stuff where we and Europe have to work together- the fishery policy needs to be European because of fish stocks, we need agreements on what can be fished, how much, where and by who. Scotland also has a massive agriculture industry that is very dependent on the EU, there are financial arrangements and deals all over the place, same goes for Scotland's renewable energy- most of it is part funded by the EU or takes advantage of EU business deals and regs and uses lots of Euro companies- so on the matter of last arbitrator, I'd rather a collective policy made at Euro level to a letting our government decide those rights alone, and on a domestic front leaving the EU would seem to me to be bad for three of Scotland's major industry- farming, fishing and energy.

I hope Figg's pussy reads this or no one will see it- bloody Reason And I sill have to get over to Rushock Bog, bad enough I have to deliver their bloody postcards but they also expect me to take the bloody palantir pictures too }}}}}}

((((( my pussy has informed me there is a new postcard in the offing, but here it may land nobody knows, or where when that dratted Scotshobbit will return))))))

Very interesting thoughts, Petty, and I'm glad to be able to read them (er, hear them relayed by Mrs Figg's pussy). I agree with you about Boris, though that's actually why I like him (or at least like following news about him), because he clearly is smart and a savvy operator. By contrast, Cameron's moves often feel clumsy and ill-considered. I think that the EU referendum, even if he wins it and the UK does not leave, is going to work out about as well for him as the Scottish independence one. Neither referendum will placate the groups agitating for change, Cameron's favored side will probably do poorer than expected even if it wins, and the opposition will be strengthened by all the media attention. At least this time he has the excuse that there was pressure from within his own party to do something on this front.

At least we'll get some dank memes from it all...

Quote..."The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didnt exist"......unquote
Yes Boris is crafty, but hes got to be & he does it in the way he knows will endear the public, by looking & sounding as one of them. We are attracted to him because he feels "real", unlike plum in gob Cameron, he feels too distant, cant trust a man who's too distant.

This project fear thing is annoying me already.

I listened to Cameron make his speech yesterday and the focus was on why we should stay in. He talked about the exit process and what other countries have had to do to make agreements with the EU and asked the opposition to spell out their position as nobody knows what they are suggesting other than 'Project Rainbows' which is 'It'lol be alright.'

I can now see why I was offered this desirable Des/Res with its own damp & sticky swamp. Someone heard Id rather dig ditches than work behind a desk Confound that Odo Banks ! I feel a hex coming on...

Cameron seems to be phoning it in most of the time. He just repeats the same old tired soundbites. he is going to have to energize his patter. Its a bit worrying because Boris has a lot of charisma, and loath him or like him Farage is at least energetic and bouncy when he talks about stuff. Brits love an eccentric and I hope they realise behind the bumbling Boris is as sharp an operator as its possible to find. It would be weird if we got Boris and Trump as leaders, they look scarily like each other, although Boris seems to hate Trump, so its not all bad.

Perhaps De Gaulle should have kept saying "non, non, non"

{{Watched Ian Duncan Smith on Andrew Marr yesterday}}}

he accused the stay in lot of being negative, saying the UK was too small, too useless to do well on its own- which is word for word the SNP argument against the No lot from the Scottish referendum- an argument that IDS was on the otherside of. Hypocritical bastard!

IDS is a loathsome reptile.