UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Bluebottle wrote:I think Scotland is a strongly pro-European country. That is the impression I have gotten from following Scottish politics on and off since pre independce referendum. Ireland is also the most pro-European country in Europe. But Northern Ireland is one of the most politically complicated places on the whole continent. Hard to say.  

I don't dispute that they're pro-Europe, but Irish and Scottish nationalism have been factors for longer than Europeanism has, and I think part of the attraction of the EU is that it's seen as a better deal for small countries. Though I could be wrong of course.

Scotland certainly seems more pro-Europe than England (and its media/political landscape seems to lean further left than England), but I'm not entirely sure that translates to being more pro-EU, turnout for the Brexit referendum was much lower than some had expected in Scotland, and even with all the UK's exemptions nearly 40% voted Leave, many of whom would have also been Yes voters, Scotland's economy and social landscape haas been effected by/depends on the EU in different ways to England, one of the key reasons many people voted Leave was concerns/disagreements over mass immigration/freedom of movement from Europe, Scotland simply hasn't been changed by Immigration to the same extent England has, and whilst many in Scotland may support freedom of movment/increased immigration (something many say Scotland needs to offset migration and declining birth rates) it's all too easy too if you haven't been exposed to it, certainly not saying immigration is a bad thing but even in the last five/ten years vast swathes of urban England have changed massively and I think many Leave voters felt threatened or left behind by a system they had voice in, the EU means different things for the four countries in the UK and I don't think it's entirely fair to put 1 against 3.

Maybe it is my idealism speaking, when saying people believe in the larger concept of Europe when you say they are pro-european. It's probably a bit of both though.

Petty can probably speak more to the reality regarding pro-european feelings. I myself find it heartening that the Scottish have a different view of integration and immigration than the English, and would not like to accept that a high immigration/anti immigration feeling is a absolute correlation. Particularly as the available data shows the UK has BENEFITED from the free movement of worker provisions and EU immigration. Sometimes, put simply, prejudice does not equal truth.

In the same line:

Brexit Secretary David Davis said he does not accept that the agencies have to move from London’s Canary Wharf.

A Brexit department spokesman said: “No decisions have been taken about the location of the European Banking Authority or the European Medicines Agency — these will be subject to the exit negotiations.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-voters_uk_58f47aefe4b0da2ff8619ddb?ir=UK

Seems some proponents of the line "Brexit means brexit", even in government, still struggle to grasp what it actually means.

Well, this is interesting. May may call a snap election to help line up the politicians behind brexit. (just had to use the construct "May may").

https://www.yahoo.com/news/uk-election-talk-builds-ahead-surprise-statement-may-093046473.html

And that be what she did.

I wonder if there is also a little ploy here to do with taking advantage of perceived sentiment in Scotland (i.e. no to indyref2) by seeing who they vote for and taking some of Sturgeons 'mandate' away.

{{I think thats part of it Lance but not the main thing. Chances are the SNP will have a reduced number- chances of getting a near total clear sweep twice in a row is slim, but I reckon they will still be far and away the most popular party here again. May might be hoping for a boost based on the popularity of the Conservative leader in Scotland, but that's no guarantee- the Tories have had charismatic female leaders in Scotland before who were much respected- it still didn't transfer into votes however.

Rater I think its polls showing Labour 18-20 points adrift of the Tories has forced this- May has a chance to firstly get a personal mandate- she was never elected PM this would solidify her powerbase, secondly she reckons she can increase her majority in the Commons against a weak Labour.
The Scottish aspect might backfire- another 5 years of Tory rule plays into SNP rhetoric a theme Sturgeon was not slow to pick up again on this announcement-

'"The Tories see a chance to move the UK to the right, force through a hard Brexit and impose deeper cuts. Let's stand up for Scotland."

Interesting times! }}}

I am hoping the Lib Dems kick the Tory arses into next week.

Well, if people wanted a chance to state their opinion of how the current governement are handling things, now they have it. (After all, only 34% of the voting age population voted for Brexit.)

That or spend another 5 years in the shadow of a pretty dismal tory government.

It's your choice now.

{{Not my choice sadly Blue- my vote, like all Scots votes here are worthless. It'll be exactly same for me as last election- I and the majority of my country will vote SNP or something other than Tory- we will get a Tory government anyway, probably even stronger than before }}}

Well, never was there a better time to do something about it

{{ Such as? Ive only got a vote same as everyone else, and a Scottish vote is worthless unless England happen to vote the same way- cant see them voting SNP! So my vote means nothing. England will almost certainly vote the Tories back in even stronger than they are and Scotland will be in a worse position than currently.
Far as I can see there is not a thing anyone in Scotland can do about that via the ballot box. }}

By keeping voting, speaking out and believing in your ideals. By not loosing faith just because you are receiving resistance. By realizing that resistance only means you are making progress. And that resistance from the current UK government can only means you are making positive progress.

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-brexit-bankers/

Hope you are not on the receiving end of this, Lance

Just lost the big reply I had but to cut it short:

Petty:

- only Scotland can vote SNP so any alternative UK government is hampered by Scotland voting that way
- I can't see an alternative to Tories as much as I don't like them. The rest suck worse.

Blue:

- The 1000 relate to trade that is conducted in Euros and there under ECB jurisdiction... If no agreement from the to do outside EU then jobs have to move... one of the perks of Brexit. I am not in that area so no impact on me.

{{True you can only vote SNP if your in Scotland, but lets face it even if Scotland takes a chance, anything to get rid of the Tories, and votes 99.9% Labour- England are not going for Corbyn and the Tories win anyway again.
See what I mean about a Scottish vote being worthless- the only time it has any value is on the rare occasions we happen to vote the same way as England (only time in my life that happened was Blair, and he was a light tory)- but even then its not our votes that count it is the English votes, if you take out all the Sottish votes Blair got you still get the same result.

This in my view highlights the strongest reason I support independence- the Democratic deficit, I dont feel I have any input into the political system at Westminster through the ballot box or any hope of doing so. }}}

Well... you are 5 million of 65 million so that is similar to saying London as the main driver of income is often at odds with everyone else (which it happens to not be right now). However, the 1 million that voted Brexit could have made a difference and I would be surprised if there were not other elections that could have been influenced at some point.

{{Scotland isn't a city, its a country with its own devolved parliament, health, legal and education system, we were told we are equal partners, that our voice will be heard equally. That hasn't happened, and obviously wont for the very good reason you highlight -we are simply overwhelmingly outnumbered by England who just drown our voice out and we get whatever England wants regardless of our views, our votes or anything else for that matter.

The only solution I see to such a disparity is independence for Scotland. Then my vote counts directly and cannot be drowned out by another nations. I dont see any other way the democratic deficit can be solved or addressed.}}}

very impressed by Kezia Dugdale today. She is a labour MP in Scotland, probably the only one but she is great. She pounded Sturgeon into a corner and that is always difficult to do. if we had Dugdale as labour leader of the UK we may just win.

{{You got to be kidding- she is known in Scotland as 'car crash Dugdale' because her speeches and interviews are usually a total car crash to watch (go to youtube and type in carcrash Dugdale interview- you'll be spoiled for choice!- you dont even need an interviewer, she can do it just talking on her own, she has had more positions than the karma sutra- what is Scottish Labour policy on independence? Under her rule its been (so far) - labour MPs can vote on their conscience,  we dont oppose a second referendum,  Labour MP's will support the Union, they dont support a referendum. She is been all over every possibility, they only have the current policy because they've already been through all the others. Whats Scottish Labour position on further devolved powers? Who knows they keep changing their minds? On nuclear weapons- depends what day of the week you ask them. She hasn't put forward a coherent policy since she became leader- a job she only got as there was literally no one else left willing to do it.
In this election I expect the SNP to lose seats- as it was a perfect storm last time got them the near clean sweep when normally Scots dont send SNP to Westminster, but I dont expect Scottish Labour to benefit, Lib-Dems and Conservatives is who I think will benefit and the main reason I dont think Labour will is because of the low esteem Dugdale is held in by most people.


Also I watched First Ministers questions today, or at least saw most of it and dont remember Dugdale getting the better of anyone, though it must be feasible she was good for a bit I happened to miss I suppose.}}}

{{Maybe the Foreign Office are just trying to scupper the EU! Some Yes Minister gold to shed light on the matter}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{You got to be kidding- she is known in Scotland as 'car crash Dugdale' because her speeches and interviews are usually a total car crash to watch (go to youtube and type in carcrash Dugdale interview- you'll be spoiled for choice!- you dont even need an interviewer, she can do it just talking on her own, she has had more positions than the karma sutra- what is Scottish Labour policy on independence? Under her rule its been (so far) - labour MPs can vote on their conscience,  we dont oppose a second referendum,  Labour MP's will support the Union, they dont support a referendum. She is been all over every possibility, they only have the current policy because they've already been through all the others. Whats Scottish Labour position on further devolved powers? Who knows they keep changing their minds? On nuclear weapons- depends what day of the week you ask them. She hasn't put forward a coherent policy since she became leader- a job she only got as there was literally no one else left willing to do it.
In this election I expect the SNP to lose seats- as it was a perfect storm last time got them the near clean sweep when normally Scots dont send SNP to Westminster, but I dont expect Scottish Labour to benefit, Lib-Dems and Conservatives is who I think will benefit and the main reason I dont think Labour will is because of the low esteem Dugdale is held in by most people.


Also I watched First Ministers questions today, or at least saw most of it and dont remember Dugdale getting the better of anyone, though it must be feasible she was good for a bit I happened to miss I suppose.}}}

Each to their own Petty. Some people think Sturgeon is a bit of a snake who is manipulating things to get her indyref going again. That is basically the point if the SNP so makes sense.

This whole bloody thing is so tiresome now. God damn election with a bunch of idiots as the candidates. You lot up there complaining about everything (although less than half of you who are making this while process a little but worse for everyone else!!).

I do have a feeling that this is the SNP plan. Just wear everyone down until they just give up, even though they just may not want it.

I think Dugdale compares unfavorably to both Sturgeon and Davidson as a party leader, but to be fair, I think most politicians would struggle to keep up with those two.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-brexit-court-challenge-second-referendum-dr-andrew-watt-a7709136.html

This was linked on reddit:

https://twitter.com/stefwalter__/status/858324693186740225