UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

https://www.rt.com/uk/355904-brexit-delayed-further-staffing/

Or we could just quietly forget about the whole fiasco?, the referendum was not legally binding, a large amount of the Out votes were protest votes against the Tories, the Liberal Democrats have already said they will ignore the results and campaign to take the UK back in Europe (given the overwhelmingly Remain Youth vote and changing demographics, it seems very unlikely to me that the results would have been so close if it had been held even five or ten years later) leaving the EU would in all likelihood A) further increase the chances of Tory Dominated government for the immediate future and B) Lead to the break up if the United Kingdom, further screwing up the economy in England, Scotland, Wales and both parts of Ireland...needless to say as a generally left leaning voter and British Unionist, whilst the past few weeks since the results have given me plenty of time to come to terms with the results, I still think it was an absolutely bonkers decision, made for the wrong reason by a public lied too from both sides of the debate.

Still, it's not all bad news:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/08/13/accounts-reveal-ukip-ended-last-year-850000-in-deficit/

I would jump for joy if Brexit never happens, I think a lot of Brexiters must be regretting their tomfoolery by now. the Pound has taken an all mighty bashing. just for starters. its a bit of a patch up job for scientist researchers and farmers, they have money for the next 4 years and then what? its madness.

Not, strictly speaking, EU-related, but the May ministry has reaffirmed the Conservatives' manifesto commitment to replace the Human Rights Act 1998 (which incorporated the ECHR into the framework of British law) with a new "British Bill of Rights".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/22/new-british-bill-of-rights-will-not-be-scrapped-insists-liz-trus/

I have the possibility of going to a proper seminar about the Brexit, with a lot of central professors, including the guy from the University of Liverpool I posted a video of earlier, but it's like 7 hours, and there won't be anyone there I know, so, I'm not sure. :/

Eldorion wrote:Not, strictly speaking, EU-related, but the May ministry has reaffirmed the Conservatives' manifesto commitment to replace the Human Rights Act 1998 (which incorporated the ECHR into the framework of British law) with a new "British Bill of Rights".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/22/new-british-bill-of-rights-will-not-be-scrapped-insists-liz-trus/

Madness, absolute shere madness. The whole point is having an international instance above the control and influence of the nation state that propogates shared base values for the individual against the state and other individuals. And they'll still be bound by the UN conventions on human rights, which goes further than the ECHR in several instances. These are the worst kinds of symbol politics..

Pretty much agreed. I'm most curious how May and her ministers plan to address the references to the ECHR in devolution legislation and especially the Good Friday Agreement.

{{They'll have to do it over the dead bodies of the Scottish and NI devolved Parliaments, thats how. }}}

{{So PM May, I call her PM because she as been so low profile since taking office that you could be forgiven for thinking we didn't have a PM, has ruled out a points-based immigration system post-Brexit.
Which was one of the main planks upon which the Leave side campaigned on and which people who voted to Leave voted for. And Boris was its chief advocate.
On top of that in  a series of interviews she has said she will not guarantee the 100million a week extra to the NHS or cuts on fuel VAT promised by the Leave side as a result of saving our membership fee to the EU.

So out of the three main planks the Leave side campaigned on- drastically cut immigration via a points-based immigration system (the Australian model) and using the money previously going to the EU to fund the NHS and to cut fuel bills- she has either abandoned or backslid on.

As well as that a leaked email has appeared in the press from the Japanese government warning the UK that if we cannot retain access to the single market then the added import/export tax on car parts ect manufactured elsewhere in Europe means having their car plants in England makes no sense, and they will have to move them to mainland Europe- that's potentially thousands of jobs all at once.

But the snag is the only way we can retain single market membership is to accept something like the Norway model- we pay a percentage of the membership fee, and have to accept the bulk of EU regulations and rules, but don't actually have any input in the decision making process of the rules and regs.
This would mean accepting freedom of movement of people- the very thing those who voted Leave were most motivated to stopping.

So if we are not getting any of the benefits promised by the Leave campaign, and we cannot maintain our remaining industrial base without compromising so much we don't even get the end to freedom of movement, so central to the Leave campaign- then what is the point in continuing?

Nothing those who voted Leave voted for is actually going to happen. None of it. So why trigger Article 50 at all if the result only seems to be to put us back where we were with less input, power and influence over direction than we have now? }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ So why trigger Article 50 at all if the result only seems to be to put us back where we were with less input, power and influence over direction than we have now? }}

So the "remain" folks can have the satisfaction of saying "I told you so"?

{{{{ There might be something in that given our new PM was on the Remain side (though she sneakily let it be known which side she was on but didn't actually do much to actively campaign for it, greatly aiding her as a compromise candidate leading to her elevation to PM)}}}

I don't think it was 'sneaky' it was good political sense to keep well out of the appalling mud-slinging and downright lies. who in their RIGHT MIND would want to throw in their towel with that lot? if she did keep a low profile it certainly wasn't out of being 'sneaky' it was being intelligent.

{{{ It was actually a compliment! She is politician it was a shrewd move that worked very well for her when it came time to replace Cameron.
Sturgeon is also sneaky, its just we have a better word in Scots for it that actually implies being sneaky in a smart intelligent way- 'canny'. She is often referenced to in our press as being a canny operator. Just sneaky is the closest English equivalent I can think of to canny. }}}

You hear the word "canny" over here from time to time but I never realized it was Scottish. "Shrewd" or "savvy" might be close to the way it's used here. Is that fairly close to the Scottish meaning?

{{Yeah, throw a hint of slyness to the intelligence factor and you'd have it (especially when used in the context of a politician)}}

savvy or shrewd is a better translation of canny. as they are positive attributes, sneaky has only negative connotations.

I didn't think the leave campaign had anyour solid policies on exactly how they would do anything... it was all examples. They used the Aussie example which was stupid as that increased immigration to help with skill gaps etc.

They did interviews with people on the news yesterday and all I heard was 'I want my country back to how it used to be before all those foreigners came and changed everything.'

There was also a remainer who said the result proved that her city was thick. I thought that was quite funny! Correct too... same as the people round my way!

'I want my country back to how it used to be before all those foreigners came and changed everything.'

I bet the Anglo-Saxons said that about the Normans. Bloody frogs coming over here with their damned castles and troubadours! pshaw!

what we want today is a better class of invader.

{{{Davis Boris and Co, the Brexit ringleaders took to the Commons yesterday to supposedly outline exactly what Brexit means- and what did we get from several hours of waffle- 'put basically Brexit means leaving the EU'- well thanks for that! So glad you filled in all the details, like what happens to resident EU citizens, what happens to ex-pat Brits? Are we trying to stay in the single market? What will our immigration policy be? Do we have any other trade deals lined up? Who will pay the farming and fisheries subsides? ect ect But no, not a word on any of it. }}}

Actually, the normans were vikings

French-speaking Vikings who had gone native. Though they still kept the Viking tradition of invasion alive.

Vikings with a penchant for cheese.

got to admit that for a Tory, Theresa isn't too bad. I like what she is saying and most importantly, doing. stuff that should have been done long ago and you wonder what Cameron was playing at. like stopping unscrupulous law firms going after soldiers, and educating more British doctors so we don't have to rely on foreign workers, and no more evil assessments for disabled people, and deporting EU criminals who commit crimes in the UK. sensible stuff.

{{The words are one thing the deeds another- still a Tory, still carrying on with the cuts to social services Cameron had underway.
And got to be careful on what sounds a good idea- like 'stopping unscrupulous law firms going after soldiers'- the ex General in charge of that scheme points out there have been over 300 guilty verdicts and the MOD have had to pay out on all those occasions, and as he says, the MOD dont pay anything out unless they really have too- these are not spurious cases for a quick buck but serious misconduct by soldiers on duty which breaks the law, military law included. This change potentially sweeps it under the carpet and says 'what our soldiers do whilst on duty stays on duty'.
She talks about more British doctors but thats at least 5-7 years down the line as you have to recruit and train them, in the meantime she wants to seriously curb immigration, the main beneficiary of which is the NHS whilst at the same time the majority of NHS trusts in England are on the brink of financial collapse and face further cuts still to come.
I also strongly dislike this idea of naming and shaming companies who dont employ enough Brits. Thats just divisive and potentially dangerous given some of the incidents of increased racial aggression seen in England since Brexit.

And speaking of Brexit- oh they didn't, not in any way that counts- will we be in the single market? Who knows. Will we have to accept some form of freedom of movement? Who knows? What happens to EU nationals living and working here in the longer term?? Who knows? What happens to Brits working and living in Europe? Who knows? What deals will we have outside of the EU? Who knows? What role will the devolved nations play in the negotiations? Who knows?}}}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{The words are one thing the deeds another- still a Tory, still carrying on with the cuts to social services Cameron had underway.
And got to be careful on what sounds a good idea- like 'stopping unscrupulous law firms going after soldiers'- the ex General in charge of that scheme points out there have been over 300 guilty verdicts and the MOD have had to pay out on all those occasions, and as he says, the MOD dont pay anything out unless they really have too- these are not spurious cases for a quick buck but serious misconduct by soldiers on duty which breaks the law, military law included. This change potentially sweeps it under the carpet and says 'what our soldiers do whilst on duty stays on duty'.
She talks about more British doctors but thats at least 5-7 years down the line as you have to recruit and train them, in the meantime she wants to seriously curb immigration, the main beneficiary of which is the NHS whilst at the same time the majority of NHS trusts in England are on the brink of financial collapse and face further cuts still to come.
I also strongly dislike this idea of naming and shaming companies who dont employ enough Brits. Thats just divisive and potentially dangerous given some of the incidents of increased racial aggression seen in England since Brexit.

And speaking of Brexit- oh they didn't, not in any way that counts- will we be in the single market? Who knows. Will we have to accept some form of freedom of movement? Who knows? What happens to EU nationals living and working here in the longer term?? Who knows? What happens to Brits working and living in Europe? Who knows? What deals will we have outside of the EU? Who knows? What role will the devolved nations play in the negotiations? Who knows?}}}

None of that matters, we can now kick out the three million polish muslim builders who are nicking the jobs we are too lazy to do, spend millions pointlessly changing the colour of passports, raise the cost of groceries to out more money into the economy,and put the £350 million a week we were definitely completely promised back into the NHS

/sarcasm...I'm still really pissed off and worried    

Petty - on your last paragraph you know as well as I do that if they were to attempt to say what we will get then everyone will say 'you haven't started triggered 50 yet so how can you promise anything.'

The only thing anyone can say is what May is saying now and that is they want the best deal, not based on any current model but that the line on immigration is one that is the priority as that is why people voted to leave.

Obviously you can bash her for being vague but you could only rightly bash her if she made promises she had no way of guaranteeing.

I think she is playing it ok so far. Not rushing in to something until at least some ducks are lined up.