UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

David H wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:

halfwise wrote:(which leads me to ask Blue again: should Norway join the EU?)

Norway is in the unenviable position where we can afford to pay to sit on the fence. It's expensive, (not something I'd advise for a country without a substantial oil reserve (or equivalent) and cash surplus) undemocratic, and on the whole a bad idea. (We basically pay our way out of an internal political issue.) But we like the idea of ourselves as different, I guess.

I'm seriously interested in this too Blue {{{and by they way I notice that like a good attorney you never quite answered the question }}}

Two questions to add: Why undemocratic?
And that oil reserve isn't worth quite what it was a few years ago, is it? Is that starting to be a point of concern yet?
(...OK I guess that's 3 questions.... Plus Halfy's which is still only half-answered... So I guess that's 3 1/2 ...)

It's undemocratic because you pay for a seat at the table, but you only have a voice as far as making recomendations. (That is not necessarily listened to. (Quite the contrary.)) You accept the legislative acts of teh Union, without having a vote on them, or playing a part in the writing of them, yourself. So, you accept the responsibilities of a ms, without having a democratic voice or input.

We have more than 3000 billion nkr layed off, and oil isn't going away anytime soon as a source of energy. (Sadly, perhaps.) Obviously the norwegian economy is facing issues with turning away from oil is a driver of industry and the economy as a whole, and is struggling with just that at the moment. But Norway is still in one fot he healthies eceonomic positions in the world. We not long ago topped a poll as the greatest country in the world to live. (We were however the third happiest or something. (Understand it who will.))

Should Norway join the EU? Well, yes. But its not a question of great actuallity. In the end, it's as simple as, we don't need to.. yet.

Brexit... Trump... Xenophobia.... A progressive leave-taking? No, it's a retreat in the direction of isolated (paranoid) States....The Putinization of the universe? The dark shadow of Nationalism? Guys, I smell the stink of regression... Heil!

I have a powerful need to know something about the demographics of the vote. I saw someone interviewed on the street saying that they thought it was generally older people who voted for exit. Did older Brittains predominantly vote for exit? If so, I'm ashamed and embarrassed about folk of my age. I'm not afraid very much of a progressive cooperative changing world, but I am of returning to living in a world where a caveman xenophobic mentality presides. Also, some suggestion was made by a journalist that working class folk were supportive of exit. Were they scared of dangerous immigrants, just like generally jumpy older folk tend to be? Give me the demographics. What did the young people - the future - vote for? For regression? Oh gawd! I need to know who were responsible for this crazy decision!!!!

Orwell - I don't have the exact stats to hand but the split of products Brexit tips with people around 50 years old. 18-30 was about 65% remain.

It is actually a little shocking to see some of the really hateful comments on social media sites... calling people traitors and telling Scotland to fuck off and take London with it... because when Londoners leave it will be English again. Nothing like a fascist streak gaining prominence in your country.... and nothing like seeing people you know liking and backing those comments. United Kingdom we very much are not.

Pleased to see the young vote. Lance, I don't think the sky will fall, but I do see this as a regressive step. The Scots, I sense ( or 'intuit' maybe) will likely be bigger losers in the end than the English, if losing is the end game. Judging by the vote in Scotland, they 'intuit' it the same as me. My passion for democracy tells me Scotland should be able to make their own deal and stay in the EU as they clearly want to.

Mrs Figg wrote:https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

its up to 316,000 and counting

nope...

321,000 and counting

Now up to 886,377!

(though I'd assume most of the people signing are from London)

I suppose the Scotland thing is complex. They voted to stay part of the UK and it's democracy, not only when it suited them!

https://twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/746466834610692096

Came across this on reddit, don't know what the source/truth of it is though:

Lancebloke wrote:I suppose the Scotland thing is complex. They voted to stay part of the UK and it's democracy, not only when it suited them!

Staying in the United Kingdom at the time  of the Scottish Referendum was also staying in the EU. Now a new referendum is required. This time I'd hope for a Scotexit.

The  (forward looking) younger generation, yet again, has largely been betrayed by the (backward conservative myth-believing) older generation.

I can tolerate slow social/economic evolution, I often even favour a cautious approach, but evolutionary regression - nuh.

I have mixed feelings about indy2. On one hand I think they voted to stay in the union and part of the overall democracy, not to pick and choose which bits as and when they felt like it. This referendum was always going to happen and it was always possible... therefore deal with it.

On the other hand... I think we have fucked this up and if Scotland wants to get out of it then let them have the opportunity.

Yep I was mostly againist Scottish Independence in 2014, now I'm leaning towards supporting a new referendum.

Though it's worth noting a 62/38 margin wasn't a huge one, and leaving the UK, Scotland's biggest trading partner (from which it will take years to fully separate) whilst the UK spends years negotiating to leave Europe, plus the falling price of oil doesn't paint a massively convincing economic argument for leaving.

I think it would be best for Scotland to whether the Storm and leave at the next general election after the market have settled down and trading deals been ironed out.

I think its wrong that Scotland should be forced out of Europe against its will. Cant it just have a mega-devo-max which includes inclusion in Europe without a full-on independence? But I am totally with the Scottish on this, its undemocratic when the majority wishes to stay in Europe.

If the Scots can have a second referendum can Remainers have one too please?

the petition is 1,260,000 and counting!

says it all really.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/cover-story-2016-07-04

How is it undemocratic when they have already voted to stay in the Union? The vote to remain accepted that whatever happens to the union also happens to Scotland. That was the whole point, they voted for their destiny to be tied to the UK the same as the 48% of remain voters can't hold a vote for their individual areas to gain independence.

Because the foundational details of what people voted for has changed. As the SNP said themselves, there would not be another referendum for a long time unless something foundational to be part of the UK changed. Now it has.

Bluebottle wrote:
It's undemocratic because you pay for a seat at the table, but you only have a voice as far as making recomendations. (That is not necessarily listened to. (Quite the contrary.)) You accept the legislative acts of teh Union, without having a vote on them, or playing a part in the writing of them, yourself. So, you accept the responsibilities of a ms, without having a democratic voice or input.

But is that "undemocratic" or just "not democratic", especially since it's by choice? It seems to me rather like choosing to pay for a good seat at a theater rather than choosing to put in the work to have a speaking part on stage. Personally I'd be more worried about a so-called democratic process (or theatrical production for that matter) where the speaking parts WERE for sale.

We have more than 3000 billion nkr layed off, and oil isn't going away anytime soon as a source of energy. (Sadly, perhaps.) Obviously the norwegian economy is facing issues with turning away from oil is a driver of industry and the economy as a whole, and is struggling with just that at the moment. But Norway is still in one fot he healthies eceonomic positions in the world.

I'm glad to hear it's still working. I went walkabout via Hurtigruten 20-ish years ago when it was seen as a "grand experiment". It got mixed reviews then from the people I was meeting, especially in the north, so I've always bee curious since then.

greatest country in the world to live. (We were however the third happiest or something. (Understand it who will.))

Maybe that's just a sad commentary on all but two of the rest of us.....

malickfan wrote:

This is why it's not good democracy to make decisions by referendum when the results of the decision won't be clear for several years. They seem to be saying that it will be over two years to negotiate the terms of the divorce, then probably 10 to fully implement the terms, by which time a significant share of the 'leave' voters will be dead and a new vote would have completely different results.

{{{edit: Hey! Now that I'm getting to be in that older side of the chart myself, maybe it's a good time to start f***ing the world up just for kicks. What have I got to lose, right?

Lance. when the Scottish people voted to remain in the union it was on the understanding of being part of Europe. that contract has been broken.

nearly 2 million people have signed the petition!

FIGHT THE POWER!!!

https://twitter.com/SkyData/status/746700869656256512

% who got through our final #EUref poll turnout filter by age group:

18-24: 36%
25-34: 58%
35-44: 72%
45-54: 75%
55-64: 81%
65+: 83%

I like reply below

and that folks is why the old didn't betray the young - they betrayed themselves

I'm trying to figure out if the petition is just a symbolic thing people are signing to express their discontent with the result or if retroactively changing the rules of the referendum is a serious proposal.

Edit: I keep seeing elsewhere people mentioning that the referendum was advisory but they all conveniently forget to mention that it's impossible to have a binding referendum in the UK because Parliament can always change its mind. David Cameron wouldn't have staked his party and his personal future on the referendum if it was intended to be purely advisory, though. Trying to change it now would be political suicide, at least for English MPs, and would result in even more uncertainty and instability which is the opposite of what you want if you're trying to stabilize the markets.

The thing is, even if we hold another referendum and vote remain, I doubt the E.U would except us, there is no going back from this, as you say Parliament would implode.

I don't agree with the decision, but the UK needs to grow up, get some sense and deal with its own mess, it's unfair on the rest of Europe to keep dilly dallying.

I've seen suggestions online that Johnson was actually hoping for a narrow remain win, and wanted to use the result as a platform for more negotiations...that turned out well...

https://twitter.com/junayed_/status/746431614285025280?s=04

Interesting lvel of thinking he's got there...The vast majority of Muslim immigrants come from Commonwealth countries which the UK has a close history and trade with and is nothing to do with the E.U, whilst European immigrants he has little problem with come from the E.U.

From one of the replies below: