UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

halfwise wrote:I was going to say that if we elect Trump at least we'll be rid of him in 4 years, but of course Britain can vote to rejoin the EU once people realize how economically rocky it can be outside.

(which leads me to ask Blue again: should Norway join the EU?)

I'd assume that even if what is left of the UK decides to rejoin the EU in a few years after the economy establishes, most of the other states would block another referendum, that's assuming the economy does stabilize and the EU is still around at that point...

Petty rest assured at least some of us in England are extremely p*ssed off/worried about the results as well, something like 75%+ of 16-29 year olds voted to remain, but evidently the racist pensioners cancelled out the vote.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-petition-for-second-eu-referendum-so-popular-the-government-sites-crashing-a7099996.html

Mrs Figg wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/brexit-petition-for-second-eu-referendum-so-popular-the-government-sites-crashing-a7099996.html

I'd be tempted to sign it (providing it loads!), but it wouldn't make a difference, the closet racists, protest voters, and older working class people alienated by mainstream politics will outnumber the young voters who can actually be arsed to vote.

I shouldn't be on the computer now, but watching the world unravel before our eyes is both horrifying and fascinating. I keep hoping to see some kind of collective leadership emerge from this shipwreck, but from here it looks like everybody's heading for their respective lifeboats.

I'm sure hoping there are wiser and cooler heads talking to each other behind closed doors somewhere right now. What's really shocking is that it appears nobody had really planned for the possibility that the vote might go this way. Am I wrong?

Well, the monkeys have truly and most certainly run away with the banana plantation.

What a turnup for the boots, eh..

malickfan wrote:

Eldorion wrote:Never fear Britons. Boris is ready to swoop in and save the day.



EDIT: I can't stay up any longer; let me know if Sturgeon makes any rapid moves towards another Indyref in her speech later this morning.

My favourite ever mememe.

The Boris for pm concept has certainly lost a lot of its comedy.

Eldorion wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:

Yeah, Chamberlain was worse, but he was also pre-Eden.

A Facebook friend thought this was the worst miscalculation since the Treaty of Amiens.

I love Peter Cook.

"I have in my hand this piece of *paper flies off in the wind*.. shit.."

Well, that was a rather disgusting moment of self-interest and xenophobia carrying the day, in a decision made by a generation ruined by a right wing tabloid media. A generation that not long ago elected a conservative government that has gone further in the direction governing for the few, not the many, than even Margaret Tatcher did. I wonder if someone told them untangling themselves politically from the EU will take approximately 10 years. That they will still have to accept EU immigration to remain part of the single market. (And as the EU is the destination of 45% of UK exports, that is a complete necessity.) That they will end up paying more just for a seat at the table without a voice. That they'll come worse out in international trade agreements, unless they remain closely EU affiliated. That leaving wasn't even ever a practical possibility, but simply an illusion sold by the worst forms of populists on the right wing of the Conservative-party and British politics. That this was ever presented as a straight up choice is the biggest travesty of us all.

There are a lot of things wrong with the EU, but for someone who studies in the field of law it stands out internationally as the singular political body that has firmly enshrined the rights of the individual against the nation state, against corporations and against each other. It is a liberal, functional, effective supranational body that has dragged the legislation of the european nation states kicking and screaming into a semblance of modernity. And more than anything today it is a social project. It this era of right wing populism, of international corporations increasing influence, of the individual loosing rights and importance in an increasingly international world the only hope we seem to have of governments governing for the people, rather than themselves. In this whole mad world it is the one example of common sense and common decency prevailing in the onslaught of special interests, even if even the EU find itself hard pressed.

Did anyone tell the British voting public this? Oh, a Professor of EU-law at the University of Liverpool did. In a University of Liverpool YouTube-video. That people like Johnson, Gowe and Farage have been able to get away with conning the British public into making a decision like this says it all.

I'm.. disgusted.

halfwise wrote:(which leads me to ask Blue again: should Norway join the EU?)

Norway is in the unenviable position where we can afford to pay to sit on the fence. It's expensive, (not something I'd advise for a country without a substantial oil reserve (or equivalent) and cash surplus) undemocratic, and on the whole a bad idea. (We basically pay our way out of an internal political issue.) But we like the idea of ourselves as different, I guess.

to get away with conning the British public into making a decision like this says it all. - Blue

{{ My only complaint at your otherwise excellent crabbit rant Blue would be at your use of British- this was England and Wales making the decision- Scotland, NI and Gibraltar all overwhelmingly voted to stay in}}}

Yup, hopefully we'll get an independent Scotland and NI as new EU-members.

You are disgusted? what about the half of the British public that knows all this but was utterly powerless to stop it?
You cant be as disgusted as we are, its not your country that's just been shafted by the politically illiterate.

Actually, I'd say this is an issue with worldwide ramifications. But I get you, Figg. Happily, there's enough disgust to go around, I think.

I'm now hoping Trump gets elected so someone else can go down with us

{{I say Scotland accepts London in as our new southern capital- Scotlondinum we can call it- that we can have access to the financial markets, they can have access to the EU markets, and we solve the problem of what currency do we use as we would get to keep the pound. And as a bonus it would mean that the RUK Westminster Parliament would technically be in Scotland }}}

Bluebottle wrote:It this era of right wing populism, of international corporations increasing influence, of the individual loosing rights and importance in an increasingly international world the only hope we seem to have of governments governing for the people, rather than themselves. In this whole mad world it is the one example of common sense and common decency prevailing in the onslaught of special interests, even if even the EU find itself hard pressed.

Dat irony considering the people just told their government how they want to be governed and the answer was "without EU involvement". Especially when most of the history of the EU has been governments making plans themselves without public consultation and going behind the voters' backs when they didn't like what they were told (ie, the referendums surrounding the European Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon). Maybe the EU should have tried harder to be more responsive to the concerns of its citizens. Then again, they were never really democratically accountable to voters. Huh, it's almost like the Eurosceptics had a point.

Brexit is still gonna be a fucking mess but non-populist politicians and "experts" in general aren't gonna win back the public's trust by insulting the public because they don't like the outcome of a referendum.

Nah. Get out and get out quick, I'd say. England has some demons it'll have to face. But you're just as well off not going along for the ride.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:to get away with conning the British public into making a decision like this says it all. - Blue

{{ My only complaint at your otherwise excellent crabbit rant Blue would be at your use of British- this was England and Wales making the decision- Scotland, NI and Gibraltar all overwhelmingly voted to stay in}}}

True, but around 75% of 18-24 year olds voted to stay, and over half of 25-49 year olds, please don't associate every English person with this idiotic, destructive nonsense which has torn apart the country, damaged Europe and possibly doomed my generation for years to come.

F*CK The English Press and the racist, ignorant self serving old gits I'm ashamed to call my countrymen, as you can probably tell by my posting today I've rarely been this p*ssed off and worried about my country before.

Honestly...I have never identified as European, and I wasn't overwhelmingly in favour of Remain, but I get the distinct feeling the Leave vote was decided for completely the wrong reasons.

And isn't it very likely we'd have to agree the basic principle of free movement (or something similar) if we wanted a flexible trade agreement with the E.U anyway?

I was actually one the fence about the result this morning, but the more I read about the angrier I'm getting.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{Its only half of England because of London- take it out the picture and the rest of England overwhelmingly voted to leave. Seems in England the more cosmopolitan or heavy trade based cities voted to remain- but Englands towns and villages all voted strongly to leave.}}}

There was definitely an urban-rural divide, but Birmingham voted Leave and even Greater London as a whole was only 60-40 in favor of Remain.

Bluebottle wrote:Yup, hopefully we'll get an independent Scotland and NI as new EU-members.

I'd be in favor of a United Ireland but there's obviously a lot of obstacles still in the way of even holding a referendum on that.

Plus the economic considerations given that NI runs a humongous deficit that the ROI couldn't handle.

Ulster nationalism had its moment but it's pretty much faded by now, hasn't it?

Eldorion wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:It this era of right wing populism, of international corporations increasing influence, of the individual loosing rights and importance in an increasingly international world the only hope we seem to have of governments governing for the people, rather than themselves. In this whole mad world it is the one example of common sense and common decency prevailing in the onslaught of special interests, even if even the EU find itself hard pressed.

Dat irony considering the people just told their government how they want to be governed and the answer was "without EU involvement". Especially when most of the history of the EU has been governments making plans themselves without public consultation and going behind the voters' backs when they didn't like what they were told (ie, the referendums surrounding the European Constitution and the Treaty of Lisbon). Maybe the EU should have tried harder to be more responsive to the concerns of its citizens. Then again, they were never really democratically accountable to voters. Huh, it's almost like the Eurosceptics had a point.

Brexit is still gonna be a fucking mess but non-populist politicians and "experts" in general aren't gonna win back the public's trust by insulting the public because they don't like the outcome of a referendum.

A popular, albeit wrong concept is that the EU is run from Brussels. Well, alright. The day to day running of the EU happens in Brussels, by hte Comission. But, as was pointed out in the exellent legal video from the UoL, the political direction of the EU is controlled by the Council. The Memebr States themselves. (Alright the exective branches of the MS, which is a democratic problem, but still.)

What I'm getting at is, in an international perspective, when policy choices are made, the EU stands out with the care and thought which is taken for the citizens of the Union. Just look at the Screms-case and the snowden revelations and the new General Data Protection regulation form the EU. It takes such a dramatic step to the left, of putting up substantial limits to surveillance of personal informaiton by both private and public parties that stands out substantally in an international context. (Comapre that to the US and the NSA.) And you can see the same thing from area to area. The EU, in my opinion, in the current international enviroment is strong force for good. A voulnerable force for good at the moment sadly. It is a shame more people do not realize it.

malickfan wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:to get away with conning the British public into making a decision like this says it all. - Blue

{{ My only complaint at your otherwise excellent crabbit rant Blue would be at your use of British- this was England and Wales making the decision- Scotland, NI and Gibraltar all overwhelmingly voted to stay in}}}

True, but around 75% of 18-24 year olds voted to stay, and over half of 25-49 year olds, please don't associate every English person with this idiotic, destructive nonsense which has torn apart the country, damaged Europe and possibly doomed my generation for years to come.

F*CK The English Press and the racist, ignorant self serving old gits I'm ashamed to call my countrymen, as you can probably tell by my posting today I've rarely been this p*ssed off  and worried about my country before.

Honestly...I have never identified as European, and I wasn't overwhelmingly in favour of Remain, but I get the distinct feeling the Leave vote was decided for completely the wrong reasons.

Oh, I certainly didn't mean to label everyone. (I'm really heartened to see the views of the Brits on here.) Just the movement that lead to the result.  

Thing is, for anyone who knows what they are talking about, this referendum, and the arguments profered, really should have sunk the political careers of people like Johnson and Gowe. Instead we get the opposite, blatant lying (or complete lack of knowledge) gets rewarded.