Doctor Who [12]
+11
bungobaggins
chris63
Eldorion
halfwise
azriel
malickfan
Orwell
David H
Amarië
Bluebottle
Nagual
15 posters
Page 24 of 33
Page 24 of 33 • 
1 ... 13 ... 23, 24, 25 ... 28 ... 33
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by David H Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:15 pm
malickfan wrote:David H wrote:
Caves - decent story. The 5 doctor is not at his best in a crisis though. He often seems more like a victim than an active player...
As I understand it Doctor Who was a fairly big cult hit in North America in the 1980s, and the current producer of the series, Jonathan Nathan Turner frequently attended panels and convetions, keen to grow the audience internationally so maybe they made Peri American in an effort to broaden appeal abroad?
I think Dr Who first started leaking across the boarder from Canada, but didn't really start getting a following until cable TV started expanding in the 70's and would often carry a CBC station for variety. It was late 70's when I became aware of our local PBS station carrying the 4th Doctor, a year or two behind BBC I think.
You'd think if you were aiming to strengthen the Canadian/USA market you'd make even more effort to get the speech right, wouldn't you? Halfy is right that there are plenty of actors who can pass flawlessly for North American, so it seems a bit strange that they hit this false note so needlessly, especially if her nationality served no purpose.
_________________
![Doctor Who [12] - Page 24 1280px-Male_kodiak_bear_face](https://2img.net/h/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ce/Male_kodiak_bear_face.JPG/1280px-Male_kodiak_bear_face.JPG)
![Doctor Who [12] - Page 24 UJpDi](https://i.imgur.com/uJpDi.jpg)
![Doctor Who [12] - Page 24 Mumbea10](https://i.servimg.com/u/f11/17/86/44/91/mumbea10.jpg)
David H- Horsemaster, Fighting Bears in the Pacific Northwest
- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-11-18
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:27 am
A fair few weeks ago I got into a kinda longwinded but interesting discussion about concept of The War Doctor and whether Night Of The Doctor worked as suitable ending for McGann's Doctor on another forum (me and said poster having complete opposite opinions on it), since then, after rewatching it I've been musing and gathering my thoughts (mostly for my own amusement I guess) and occasionally writing them out in ... longwinded detail over the course of some random spare time , it probably isn't of much interest to anyone here (other than Petty I guess) but I thought I'd share some of my thoughts here if anyone was interested/ 
/bored enough to read it at some point...
With the 8th Doctor's 20th Anniversary later this year, and John Hurt starting to explore the character once more on audio, I think it's still an interesting subject to think about:
/bored enough to read it at some point...With the 8th Doctor's 20th Anniversary later this year, and John Hurt starting to explore the character once more on audio, I think it's still an interesting subject to think about:
- Why Night Of The Doctor was the perfect ending for The Eighth Doctor and remains a very clever seven minutes of Who :
- NOTD is a very clever piece of writing i.m.o, moving though heroism to tragedy and capping off McGann's era in less than seven minutes, it isn't a groundbreaking story by any means, but a very fitting ending for McGann's Doc, it remains a very exciting peice of who history and is packed with a surprising amount of nods to 8's stories.
The 7th Doctor Sylvester McCoy made a brief appearance in the TV Movie, which hints he had already been through a significant ordeal not too long ago off-screen (and dosen't bother explaining why he was transporting the Master's ashes), while his immediate successor had huge involvement with the plot. Here, McGann makes a brief, unexpected appearance but with a huge involvement in the plot of his regeneration story, while his immediate successor has no involvement with the plot, but was preparing to enter a huge conflict off-screen, The TV Movie and NOTD are both essentially book ends, but starting midway through a wider story. The Seventh Doctor regenerated into the 8th a couple of hours after his supposed "death", in NOTD , the Eighth Doctor dies in a spaceship crash and is resurrected long enough to allow him to regenerate into the War Doctor.
The very first thing the Doctor says in this episode is refer to himself as a Doctor, the very last thing he does is declare himself to be "Doctor no more", whilst the Eighth Doctor started out as an amnesiac unsure of how or what he was, he dies by choosing to regenerate into something the antithesis of his usual personality, it's a very interesting parallel and a full circle journey for McGann's Doctor.
It is interesting to note the Eighth Doctor's outfit in NOTD does seem to take limited inspiration from the outfit he previously adopted in the Big Finish "Dark Eyes" stories (darker hues, more practical material) though overall it seems to be a more worn and 'grown up' version of his TV Movie costume — still vaguely Edwardian, but redesigned from the ground up and like his tardis very battered around the edges, this suggests i.m.o that he was desperate to return to 'better times' and reinforces the idea of his Doctor coming full circle.
The first half of NOTD works by taking what is by this point a regular event of the new series - the 'seduction' of the new companion as the Doctor invites Cass to travel with him (In the novel The Eight Doctors, which starts immediately after the end of the TV movie, the 8th doctor says: "Let's just say that I'm a Doctor. There's more than one, you know. Clearly, I'm not the one you were expecting.", his first lines in NOTD are very similar), and then twists it into something very different as the usual “bigger on the inside” line becomes an immediate source of revulsion for Cass, as she rejects the Doctors's offer to travel with him, and chooses death instead (this is another call back, the Doctor arguing with suspicious female acquaintance he's just met through a locked door in a moment of crisis, he does the same with Grace during the TV Movie.)
This does several things at once, firstly, it offers a sufficiently large reason for the Doctor to die in the next few minutes minutes, avoiding the problems McCoy caused in McGann’s other story by hanging around for nearly a quarter of the episode, a companion refusing to join the Doctor (even one as cheery and hopeful as Eight) is a very rare occurrence and instantly brings the viewers up to date with just how bad the time war is getting, if even the Doctor is seen in a negative light. It also gives McGann something strong to react against that doesn’t really require any characterization or detailed info dumping about the 8th Doctor, Moffat evidently had the sense to give him dialogue that makes a lot of the decisions for him, the story is driving the Doctor, not the other way around.
This is more evident in the second part, on Karn (The Sisterhood of Karn appeared in "The Brain of Morbius" and the 8th Doctor audios Sisters of the Flame/ Vengeance of Morbius). This second section is basically a three minute climax - a straight build up to McGann’s regeneration and, in turn, to Day of the Doctor. NOTD was the first official acknowledgment of the nature of the War Doctor and exactly how he fitted into continuity, so McGann who was himself the first torchbearer from Old to New Who does the same sort of thing once more in a very different way, it's
A would be companion and innocent bystander dying as a consquence of the Doctors'a actions seems sufficient enough to justify a regeneration (companions of Eight dying is regular occurence ufortunately for him), but justifying the abandonment of the title and promise of “Doctor” is a much harder to sell especially with largely unknown doctor (reestablishing McGann, and/or turning his character around in just one minsode or ep was always going to be hard no matter how Moffat wrote him), and something that leans almost entirely on the mythical weight of the barely explored Time War to get the job done, the Eigtht Doctor dies by getting caught in a jumble of madcap continuity and darkness, that alone is a perfect ending for him.
I rather like the symbolism in Eight's first and last actions as the Doctor-in the TV Movie, when Eight is looking for clothes in the hospital right after regenerating, he finds the Wild Bill costume in a locker, at one point, he reaches into the locker and finds the gun holster, E looks at it, and puts it down straight away. When Eight regenerates into the War Doctor, he immediately picks up Cass's bandoleer and puts it on, this is pretty powerful i.m.o , one of Eight's first acts was showing his abhorrence of violence, whereas the War Doctor's first was in immediate preparation for it. To me that's a true journey, from wide eyed romantic to battle scarred adult finally forced to grow up and take responsibility, he is given the choice as to how to regenerate, and picks a warrior, the very thing he had spent his incarnation striving not to be, it's a tragic and complete 180 degrees journey told in barely an hour of screentime.
Look at the 'Promise': Never cowardly or cruel. Never give up, never give in.
Eight broke the promise by giving up , it's more tragic considering he was one of the least cruelest Doctors of them all. Perceived as a monster simply by being a Time Lord no matter how much he tries to help those he can, Eights final downfall as a Doctor was remaining a moral idealist.
My interpretation is that the Doctor chose to crash (In the audio's Max Warp, 8 supposedly dies in a spaceship crash but it turns out to be a flight program. Here he actually does die in a spaceship crash, whilst in "To the Death" he wanted to save Lucie Miller from a crashing spaceship but was convinced not to. Here he tries to save a woman from a crashing spaceship but fails again...he dosen't have much luck with spaceships does he?) because he finally understood, via the death of Cass, that no matter what he did, the war would continue to tear apart the universe and no amount of 'healing' (metaphorical or actual) as the doctor would/could bring it to an end. The Eigthth Doctor might well have saved himself from the crash by simply stepping back into the TARDIS and running away once more, but he chose not to, therefore the Eigtht Doctor was the first to break the promise by giving up and giving in to his fears. And that desperation carries over into the actions of the War Doctor, who wanted nothing more than to be the Doctor, to be the man he once was, yet fought willingly all the same, the morality and courage of the War Doctor acts as an inversion of the 8ths, as he walks an opposite path, starting out as a outcast warrior, ironically becoming more of a doctor as he approaches the decisions to deploy the moment, it subverts the usual journey you'd expect a soldier to follow in a war, and arguably proves why using the 8th Doctor wouldn't be quite as exciting.
That said, it is hard to say 8 wouldn't be changed and developed and changed by the war. Just because the Eighth Doctor retains his streak as a romantic pacifistic at the time of his death, it dosen't mean he didn't experience the full horrors of the war first hand, it is very clear from the way he says his final lines in NOTD he was close to breaking point, doing everything he could to stay the 'good man' to the very end, personally as I said above I think there's is more drama (and likely better stories) seeing him pushed close to the edge, rather than falling right over it, a man who makes the choice to become a warrior is more cliched than a man faced with no choice- The War Doctor is born into Battle rather than forced into it, it's a massive break from the character of the Doctor and would give the writers a hell of a lot to play around with, as does the 8th Doctor's emotional dilemna.
Some may argue Eights actions and refusal to fight are an abdication of responsibility and that it diminishes the Eighth Doctor by giving him the easy way out, and whilst's that's an easy point to make, I don't agree. I see it as a testament to his strength of character, to me there's something reassuring and poetic, that the Eighth doctor doesn't consider his long history of personal losses and grievances good enough cause for walking down the road to double genocide, rather the losses and grievances he suffered turn him in the opposite direction, steering him into doing his utmost to save lives from the outskirts of the conflict, seventeen years after his first appearance he's grown older and wearier but remains until death a moral idealist, it's a tragic arc for such a steadfast enthusiastic Doctor. I also think there is alot of scope and drama to be found in the upcoming time war audios, exploring why he dosen't fight even after all his losses, to me it adds to the insanity and mystery of the conflict, knowing even the Doctor after so many losses would have to be forced into taking part, it certainly speaks volumes about 8s idealism and misplaced sense of hope.
The War Doctor was eventually willing to break the Promise by taking the decision to sacrifice innocents to end the war, however now we know he, in fact, redeemed the lost and broken Doctor before him as well, by not destroying Gallifrey and giving reason for those that followed to reclaim the name of the Doctor. As such two, not one doctors were redeemed by the events of Day Of The Doctor, and Eights final sacrifice strikes home all the harder, he may not have been willing to fight in the war, but he realized the bigger picture and was, in the end willing to sacrifice himself to become a man capable of ending the war, the War doctor gave up his morals without choice, the Eighth Doctor gave up his life twice over, it's hard to say which one took more courage.
When the Eighth Doctor died to protect his 'promise' during the Time War, finally broken but at peace knowing he had kept true to himself onto death, the universe brought him back to life and threw it all back in his face almost mocking him. It's ironically tragic, The Doctor who would rather die than fight, being convinced that killing is necessary, then almost immediately dying again to become a man capable of it. Eight dying and then being resurrected forces him to re-evaluate his role, and moral position on the time war, he can be the Doctor and run away from it again, or he can change and do what needs to be done. He knew in his hearts that his current incarnation could never could sink that low, but his final action is choosing to regenerate into a incarnation capable of doing so. In a metaphorical way, the universe at this point was invalidating the whole of the Eighth Doctor's life.
So the Eighth Doctor dies both a failure and hero, sure it's not as epic as destroying Gallifrey would be, but would you really say having him destroy Gallifrey, only for his actions to be cancelled out again by the moment (or depending on your interpretation) being stopped from happening would be worth breaking down his Doctor so dramatically? In NOTD he dies as hero saving a stranger, then once more chooses to regenerate into a warrior foretold to bring an end to the conflict, as a doctor he's both redeemed and outcast by these actions twice over.
The Eighth Doctor questions whether the regeneration will hurt, he wants to be in pain as he transforms into the War Doctor, horribly conflicted about what he's going to do as his next incarnation(The Doctor yells "Get out! GET OUT!" exactly like he did in Big Finish's "To the Death" and "Dark Eyes: The Great War"), that's why the line ''Physican heal thyself" hits so hard, it shows him seeking redemption for the breaking of the promise by the incarnation that followed. The last act of hope of a desperate and dying man, it also acts as an apology of sorts (it's particularly ironic, considering almost all the companions he named died in their travels with him), finally at his breaking point, he is directly harming "The Doctor" (both the person and 'promise' of the name) in order to become the warrior that will end the war, but as it's a quote from Christ (fitting the literary byronic romanatic that is Eight), it also brings to mind the idea of him passing on the burden to the next doctor.
I'm partially inclined to argue that the Eighth Doctor 'Era' needed to end somewhat unsatisfyingly and quietly, the 8th Doctor is unfortunately more defined by his absence than stories - a character whose defining trait is that he was played by Paul McGann, who spent most of the era not playing him officially on screen, except at the very begining and end. So the Eighth Doctor is mostly notable for consisting of a pair of regeneration scenes and very little else that is really recognizable as Doctor Who in the sense of being the TV show, so having a short, downbeat internet minisode for his regeneration story seems oddly fitting from a out of universe perspective.
There's a part of me rather glad the last of the 'classic doctors' ultimately wasn't so bogged down with the angst of the new series, McGann's Dctor going out as a tragic hero essentially committing suicide, rather than being discarded as an blood soaked outcast seems a much more powerful end to the largely than life wide eyed romantic seen in the TV film, heroic, tragic and final, rather than completely morose or grandiose as with Tennant or Smith.
Taking away the irony of the format in which it was shown, NOTD is a very symbolic, unflinchingily tragic ending to the entire life of the 8th Doctor i.m.o, with very fitting last words and actions from one of the more interesting Doctors, yet it also leaves enough breathing room for future stories with a rather different 8th Doctor to what many were used to...
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:42 am
Malick- couldn't find anything I would have an issue with ( and for me thats saying something!) however I think there is a bit missing between these two paragraphs-'McGann who was himself the first torchbearer from Old to New Who does the same sort of thing once more in a very different way, it's
A would be companion and innocent bystander dying as a consquence of the Doctors'a actions seems sufficient enough to justify a regeneration (companions of Eight dying is regular occurence ufortunately for him), but'
But a great summing up I think both of the minisode and how well thought out it is and of 8 in general.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Bluebottle Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:49 am
McGann was the new Who Doctor who should have been. (He was better in a ten minute special than any of the officially elected new Who Doctors has ever has managed to be.) 
_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
![Doctor Who [12] - Page 24 Tumblr_msgi12FPjq1s8au6qo2_500](https://33.media.tumblr.com/de58a4b1ea8094e414d274be9532e12d/tumblr_msgi12FPjq1s8au6qo2_500.gif)
Bluebottle- Concerned citizen
- Posts : 10100
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 38
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:50 am
Pettytyrant101 wrote:
'McGann who was himself the first torchbearer from Old to New Who does the same sort of thing once more in a very different way, it's
A would be companion and innocent bystander dying as a consquence of the Doctors'a actions seems sufficient enough to justify a regeneration (companions of Eight dying is regular occurence ufortunately for him), but'
But a great summing up I think both of the minisode and how well thought out it is and of 8 in general.
Thanks
I wrote that out on wordpad which dosen't even have a spellchecker, so it's probably riddled with errors, I might have deleted some stuff by accident.I only got to know the 8th Doctor after watching NOTD, but even so it's really hard to understand the arguments for McGann as the timewar Doctor, more thoughts of mine to follow...
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:58 am
More longwinded thoughts:
- Why McGann wouldn't work as the War Doctor:
- Although Paul McGann is my favourite Doctor, and as an actor he would have certainly had the talent to pull the role of The War Doctor off, I really struggle to picture his doctor fighting in a war of that scale, and i.m.o the ending he got in NOTD was much more in keeping with his character.
As I understand it at the end of his Seventh incarnation, the Doctor grew tired of manipulation and endlessly playing 'a game of chess' with his enemies, and grew into a more reserved contemplative man, sensing the oncoming darkness in his future timeline, he spent his final years mostly alone, fixing mistakes and giving his next incarnation a clean slate fearing he wouldn't be up to task, so in some ways you can argue the 7th Doctor essentially rejected becoming a warrior or manipulator and purposely regenerated into the healer and romantic explorer he always was at heart(s), the 8th Doctor being a reaction to 7's persona.
Some Classic Who fans weren't overly enthusiastic about the barrier between the old show and the continuation being completely broken down, the time war is a construct of the New Series, and personally I'm not entirely sure throwing the Classic Doctors in would suit the characters very well,McGann though from between the eras is counted as a 'classic' doctor by the BBC, and wouldn't necessarily fit into Day Of The Doctor's script, as it was a very New Who driven storyline, moreover McGann's Doctor as a more user friendly romantic, was something of a protype for Tennant and Smith's Doctors so wouldn't have provided the sort of contrast Moffat was after in the script.
Although having 8 destroy Gallifrey, or coming to terms with his actions after being prevented from doing so would have been a powerful redemptive arc for McGann (and obviously give him some much needed screen time, almost in a meta way, the half human doctor and star of a one of TVpilot be redeemed with the help of the Doctors of The New Series) I'm not convinced it was really merited by his storylines in the audios/books, and they can do that to much greater effect in the audios anyway. As a a fan of the 8th Doctor I'm a little uneasy about the notion that he needed to be redempted as well, something a little too snarky about that notion...
Paul McGann himself has cast doubt on his doctor fighting in the time war:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5LVrTqp25o
''Well I think, one of the nice things about Night Of The Doctor was playing that reluctance, playing that dilemma...I mean he looked like he'd had a fight...I kinda think it was the decent compromise...I'd rather play that I think because I'm not really...I don't know...I'm not really a tough guy, I don't do tough guys so well, I do mixed morality a bit better...''
As far as I can tell he was open to the idea and probably would have played the role if asked, but McGann has always seemed more drawn to the Doctor's inner pysche and heroism, keen to explore as many new areas of the Doctor as possible, as he says in the interview, he dosen't think he could pull off tough guys very well (the Eigtht Doctor, though far from a pacifit isn't what I'd call tough), McGann nearly quit Big Finish back in 2004 after apparently becoming bored by the current story arc. At the very least I think giving McGann an on screen regeneration and end point might work in BF's favour, by giving them a definte end point it means McGann is no longer just the wilderness years Doctor with no ending in sight.
From his very first moments the 8th Doctor proved himself as a very fallible doctor, a moral idealist and impulsive romantic, this is the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the R-101, installs a buttfely sanctuary in the tardis and tried to rescue the Master from death even after he had murdered his companions, hardly the mark of a warrior. The 8th Doctor is hardly a coward, but even when forced to fight the 8th Doctor comes across as a man who'd rather take any other option, chastising himself and others for using violence voluntarily, he'd rather point a gun at himself than others.
McGann can do snark and rage brilliantly, but even so I could never personally buy the idea of him fighting in a war of this scale voluntarily, every time he has fought the Daleks its been on a small scale with a very good reason or involving a personal grudge, which is very different to engaging in full scale war or genocide. I think his frequently shown disgust of time lord bureaucracy, and affinity for finding the joy and wonder in any situation paint him as rather more suited to a man trying to end the war from the outskirts than waging it at the front, the very fact that's he's so full of passion and anger in times of hardship make him less of a candidate, I don't think he'd have the outward detatchment necessary.
The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well. He'd rather run. Look at the fourth doctor running away from the Presidency of The Timelords, the second fleeing the timelords after the war games or the tenth running away from the Shadow Proclamation saying the Doctor will lead them to war. Even the seventh doctor, although he is manipulative, is not outright war like, and Eight for the most part certainly isn't, this is a man who'd rather point a gun at himself than others, broke the rules of time to save Charley from the R-101 and ran from the consequences becuase he couldn't bare to disappoint her, tried to save th Master in the TV Movie after he'd 'murdered' his companions and carries around spare food in his pockets just encase anyone is hungry. This exchange from one the audios sums up his attitude wonderfully:
The Doctor: "This is how evil starts. With the belief that the ends justify the means. But once you start down that road, there's no turning back. What if you can save five million lives but you have to let ten people die? Or a hundred? Or a hundred thousand? Where do you stop?"
Lucie Miller: "But you did. You did stop."
Doctor: "I did. But by then I ended up traveling alone. Because I couldn't trust myself with anyone's life. Not after..."
Lucie: "Not after? Not saying. OK. Then what made you change from being a lonely bean counter to companionable time traveler?"
Doctor: "A new body. A clean slate, a fresh start. From that day I knew I never would countenance the death of a single living being. That's why I no longer travel alone. "
Lucie: "Why?"
Doctor: "So I could never forget how precious a single life is."
I find it much easier to picture McGann's Doc trying to safe innocents from the sidelines and limit the damage through peaceful means rather than slaughtering daleks left right and center, I don't think his doctor would have be willing to work with the timelords that closely, nor throw himself into the fire not unless there was any other option, and I can't help but respect the 8th Doctor, right up to his death he refused to break his morals, and remained 'The Good Man' through a sense of misplaced honour.
Many point to Dark Eyes audios as evidence for a darker, more callous 8th doctor, and whilst its true the 8th Doctor comes to a point where he actually contemplates wiping out the Daleks in this series (which Doctor hasn't?), the Dark Eyes arc was more about the Doctor searching for hope and redemption, hope that the universe didn't just create evil monsters like the Daleks or traitorous timelords like the Master, and proving to himself that he could and would save people if given the choice. Dark Eyes 1 starts with the Doctor absolutely raging with anger and grief (after the loss of several companions to the Daleks), pushing him to the very brink of his moral edge, but if even at his lowest the Eigtht Doctor still consciously rejects the path that leads to open warfare, I don't think anything would really break him into a Warrior, his rage and anger is all the more striking in these audios, because it is so opposed to his usual nature, come Doom Coaltion he's reasonably chirpy and cheerful once more.
That said, there's certainly an argument to be made that his Big Finish stories (and the books) do show a gradual journey from the scatterbrained, even childish, romantic wanderer he was in 1996 to something of a exhausted, emotionally broken old man on the brink of a very tragic fate, so you could argue Big Finish were moving McGann in a darker direction (if very slowly) anyway, and that destroying Gallifrey at the climax of a terrible war wouldn't be too much of a stretch as a beliebvable way to end such an arc, but i.m.o the evidence does more to mark his Doctor as a man who would never do such a thing than it does to support it.
The Dark Eyes boxsets i.m.o proved he wasn't a man who would be able to sacrifice even a few innocents lives for the needs of the many, or willingly walk down the road to double genocide, and how given the choice, he'd always strive for peace and honor if deep down, he still had hope things could change, as he says to the Master, 'I will not join you in this insane war across the timelines!'. There's a difference between character development and outright character rewriting, McGann's Doctor was at his hearts never a true warrior and would always find his way back to the 'light' and, as such wouldn't have worked in the War Doctor role as Moffat envisioned it.
Although Dark Eyes does reinforce the idea of McGann becoming darker, to me the 8th Doctor's darker aspects have always been more of a reaction to the writers expermenting with and testing his impulsive nature and high moral idealism, rather than any natural inward darkness in the Eigtht Doctor. Even in his darkest moments, his arc in the audios was more concerned with testing his Doctor, then pulling him back from his snapping point, rather than breaking him completely i.m.o.
Of course there's no way of knowing how much the more recent boxsets were rewritten in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, but assuming at the time Big Finish wanted to stretch the gap between Dark Eyes and The Time War as wide as possible, they would be fighting a battle with listeners, who would naturally want to hear the time war as soon as possible, but once you break the doctor there's no going back, knowing that no matter what 8 becomes war the 8th Doctor would end up as a burnt out but brutal warrior, would i.m.o derail his gradual character arc and limit how far Big Finish could take the character, before things became very very depressing and repetitive.
But let's assume McGann been cast as The War Doctor, Big Finish have stated many times before they are always keen to stretch and explore the lifespan of The Eighth Doctor as much as possible, using McGann as The Doctor who fought in the war for centuries could have pigeonholed how far they could experiment with the character, at the time of the 50th Anniversary, they had no idea if their license would be renewed or extended to cover New Who properties, and there's no guarantee McGann would have been happy exploring such a different version of his Doctor. With the 8th Doctor in particular there's a much stronger case for following his story chronologically, and things would only get cylical and stale if you were always fighting the temptation to show the build up to the war or show a true Doctor Gone Dark, it's hard to believe a 'time war' would have started overnight or linearly, now BF have a largely outcast 'War Doctor' to write for, they can keep some of the time war mysterious, and can still tell the 8th Doctor's involvement in great detail, 8 and War operate very differently as Doctors, so there's room for a wider variety of Time War era stories.
For many I think one of the attractions of using McGann as the War Doctor was the idea of his untapped potential, and the arc of a 'lover' being forced to become a fighter, which is a fair enough point of view, and certainly a interesting arc from a dramatic angle. For a doctor that started out questioning himself 'WHO AM I!' and expressed such a clear love of the universe, having his final actions lead to genocide and the destruction of his homeworld would have a tragically ironic ending, and given McGann some amazing material to work with as his soul was crushed by the weight of an endless war. However it's clear that The War Doctor wasn't quite the boogeyman some fans were lead to believe, and one of Moffat's points with Hurt's Doctor was to prove, no matter how Dark the character went, he was at heart still the Doctor. Therefore, I think Moffat (who has a clearly defined interpretation of the 8th Doctor's character) would have been even less inclined to make the 8th Doctor as dark as some fans wanted, and for me it would be a little too metatextual and a bit of a slap in the face to use the 8th Doctor in the timewar, his doctor dosen't need redeeming.
Personally I don't think it's an arc that is really backed up with McGann's work in the audios, I'd feel very cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh, and personally I don't find it as fulfilling or interesting from a dramatic point of view, it just seems predictable, The 8th Doctor has already been pushed to the brink with so much heartbreak, tipping him even further over the edge just seemed a bit...cynical, The very fact that it was revealed Gallifrey was never destroyed, although giving the Doctor a sense of retribution and a bittersweet ending would i.m.o render the theoritcal changes to his Doctor a little pointless. And as a fan of the BBC 8th Doctors novels (which will hopefully be adapted by Big Finish one day...)McGann being the time war Docotr sits somewhat uneasily with me...what are the chances the same Doctor who deliberately didn't destroy Gallifrey permanently, to stop a war from starting, would contemplate destroying it completely after deliberately fighting in an even bigger war voluntarily, it would be both retreading and cancelling out old ground for the 8th Doctor.
Having come to know the 8th Doctor I'd have found it a massive kick in the teeth if they broke down McGann's heroic wanderer into a blood soaked outcast completely devoid of hope, only to have the destruction of Gallifrey reversed anyway-at least John Hurt's Doctor fought (largely) voluntarily and with purpose from the start, and adds a very different kinda of Doctor to the roster.
I'm honestly of the opinion people mostly wanted McGann as the War Doctor because they didn't really know him and wanted to see more of the mystery explored, not because it was supported by the source material or his Doctors nature. Now thanks to Moffat's gamble, we have two doctors in the war-one a Doctor trying his utmost not to become a warrior, only to be pushed by circumstance into one a warrior gradually becoming a doctor again, it's a fascinating cycle with huge potential and with the forthcoming Time War Audios for each Doctor presumably running in parallel there's going to be some very interesting comparisons to explore
- The case for and against the War Doctor and other random musings on the character:
- Personally I loved the idea of an outcast, self loathing 'War' Doctor, and for a variety of in universe and practical reasons. Although a peice of retroactive continuity (though since we never got confirmation whether it was 8 or 9 who fought in the time war, it dosen't actually change anything) I think it makes more canonical sense than using McGann (or even Eccleston) in the role, and gave us a brilliant new Doctor in Hurt, though I appreciate their are issues and concerns that some had about the character, and it does detract from the Doctor's character arc in some respects.
The War Doctor raises some interesting dilemmas and parallels with real conflicts. Soldiers are genuine people too, doing a job they are trained to do (not always voluntarily), rarely genuinely violent, defending their freedom at all costs, having to make very tough decisions in the process, fighting an enemy who are genuine people with similar obligations and logic for fighting. So using that reasoning, taking the Doctor out of that dilemna by putting in a newly created 'sort-of-but-not-quite Doctor' in his place (moreover one we first see at the very end of his life when he isn't going to be the warrior of his prime ) arguably cheapens some of the drama, and allows the Doctor to excuse his actions because he temporarily went by a different name (which is either a good or bad thing depending on how you view the character as a children's hero), even if he later excepts those actions.
On the other hand Doctor Who is set in a heightened sci-fi environment, the Doctor isn't a human hero, and in The Time War he wasn't fighting a human enemy, so should be held to different reasoning.
Out of universe, it's primarily a family show that can't or dosen't want to explore such dark, morally grey themes to the extent they deserve, and first and foremost has to think of the casual viewer (even if this was a 50th Anniversary episode), and I'm not completely convinced McGann would appeal to the casual viewer.
A lot of people wrote off Colin Baker's more abrasive Doctor after he strangled his companion (despite his Doctor mellowing in the audios, even on the TV series to an extent), Tom Baker's more morose fourth Doctor in his final years does seem somewhat at odds with with his earlier self, Tennant went fairly dark and arrogant in his last few specials (a stark contrast to his cheery eyed ladies man take on the character) even Capaldi alienated a few viewers with his colder more abrasive 12th Doctor.
The difference being all these Doctors, had character progression and change during their tenures on screen, but not to the extent that it was a complete surprise or distraction. McGann had never got that character progression on screen (frankly I'd feel cheated not seeing such a change in the flesh) and remains for most a largely unknown doctor, if audiences had seen his Doctor break and grow darker over a length period or large number of storylines such a change would probably be easier to understand (even if it's still more of a rewrite than character progression) but to so such a sudden change of character, have his Doctor become a warrior, and handwave it away with a few lines of dialogue could be seen as lazy or confusing by casual viewers.
The popular image of McGann's Doctor among those of the general public who actually remember or like the TV Movie is the easily distracted romantic charmer with with the frock coat, long hair and gothic tardis interior, (which is fair enough considering the limited avalibity/extra cost of the expanded universe materials for his Doctor), arguably less of a proper doctor , more a man who appeared in an episode once.
But McGann hated that wig and would probably stipulate in his contract that he didn't have to wear it if he returned, the tardis set from 1996 no longer exists and complicated rights issues would nix any major references to his companions Grace and Chang from the TV Movie. You could explain the change in character, as well explaining how his Doctor got to this point with vague references to the Big Finish continuity (or even the BBC Books/Comics, weirdly the BBC books, though out of print have a stronger case to be 'canon' as they were produced 'in house'...they themselves depict a explicitly and very different destruction of Gallifrey and a another timewar, the Big Finish audios have partially absorbed the books into continuity, so it would be very confusing figuring out what to reference). However the BBC charter rules that a programme must be able to be understood by the public using only broadcast material produced by the BBC (Night of the Doctor was released under different circumstances, first broadcast on the BBC Iplayer and Red Button, which is probabaly why it got away with name dropping some of his Big Finish companions)-it's unfair on the audience to have to purchase additonal material produced by another company to understand key plot points or character backgrorunds.
I doubt McGann would have been happy with a storyline that either pigeonholed or largely ignored the substantial work he had put into the audios over the years, and if McGann had been the war Doctor, it would be both retreading slightly similar events and cancelling out large proportions of his backstory as established by the very same expanded universe materials that are largely responsible for the fanbase his Doctor has. Such expanded universe materials are generally only considered partially canon by many viewers, and often viewed as intrusive or boring to many ordinary viewers anyway...so if you are going to be ignoring the legacy and essentially creating a brand new doctor from the ground up,...why not just go the whole hog and do it for real?
Even asuming you could persuade McGann's Doctor to once again don the wig, and bring back all the elements of his Doctor from 1996 (alot of effort from 1996) this could have interfered with Big Finish continuity (having already shown a major costume change in the Dark Eyes audios) and majorly piss off the fans who had spent much money and time following the audios, it's a loose-loose situation.Even now, to be frank, I'm not completely convinced McGann's return would create the same excitement for the general public as Hurt's casting did. McGann's Doctor only massively appealed to hardcore fans or those who like the idea of his mystery, the public memory of his doctor isn't really of a proper Doctor, it's of him kissing Grace, a motorbike chase , 'These shoes, they fit perfectly!', Eric Robert's hammy Master and San Francisco on New Year's Eve, it's not much of a legacy, but it's enough for many people to pass judgement, and little enough for many others to be ignorant of or ignore, a brand new Doctor with a clearly defined purpose put everyone on the same page and gave Moffat greater say in how to write his character traits.
For most, McGann's Doctor is probably, and sadly more defined by his absence and the failure of the TV Movie to lead to a series than his actual performance and take on the Doctor. Putting his regeneration in a standalone internet special made alot of sense from a buisness point of view, diehard fans would happily turn to YouTube to see Eight's regeneration, new viewers would be intrigued or confused, but they are sitting at a computer so could just look at the Wiki entry for him, it built hype for the actual special and kept everyone talking for a week afterwards.
Whilst McGann's Doctor has certainly become much more popular in the wake of Night Of The Doctor, that's still a short, niche and largely unseen internet short that builds on, and pays tribute to his character arc and persona in the audios, DOTD would have less freedom and room to do so, with the time war Doctor acting largely as a plot point and playing second fiddle to two other, immensely popular Doctors, Hurt's Doc offered something totally new for everyone.
At the time Moffat had no way of knowing if McGann's Doctor would provoke a popular reaction in the casual audiences, he may not have even been available for filming, and although he's a excellent Actor and very likeable Doctor, he had only played the role once before on screen, some 17 years before, so there was precious little for Moffat to judge his Doctor on, an internet Short which focused on McGann and gave him a simple, but tragic storyline was probably easier for both Moffat and McGann to work with.
There's a more practical reason for not using McGann. Firstly is that McGann's Doctor was, and generally is a polar opposite to Eccleston's, and in many ways remains a prototype for Tennant and Smith's more romantic, outwardly open Doctors, a naturally charming and at heart(s) youthful optimist, his Doctor wouldn't necessarily provide the contrast or gravitas Moffat was after in the script, to accommodate McGann he would have to rewrite the script for Eight, time which he didn't have.
Even supposing Moffat went down the route of making McGann's Doctor much wearier and darker, the character and history of the 8th Doctor is already long established in expanded media, with a small but devoted following, if he was going to go to the bother of bringing him back largely to please these fans, ignoring what's gone before and the work McGann had already put into the franchise wouldn't sit very well with the fanbase. There's nearly seventeen years worth of history to reference, summarize and provide a adequate conclusion to (with the BBC charter and copyright laws to work around), with everyones own version of McGann's ending playing in their heads already, it's a hell of alot of pressure to live up to, and there wouldn't necessarily be time to close his story in a dramatic enough way, DOTD was supposed to push the story forward, unfortunately McGann's Doctor isn't really known enough to merit a huge part in that i.m.o.
On the other hand, although I always had my doubts Eccleston would have worked in the 50th in the role, Moffat's original idea about bringing Nine back as the War Doctor would have probably been easier to believe for alot of viewers. Eccleston's Doc was a believable tough guy, angry, haunted and snarky, it's easy to see how he would have slotted into the DOTD script. 'The Ninth Doctor returns' has a instant pull because there's a vivid recent(ish) image of Eccleston's Doctor as a character in the public memory, he continues to be a popular doctor with a whole series and character arc to work with (and huge numbers wishing for his return), RTD wrote his Doctor with the vague idea that he had ended, and probably fought in The Time War (the 8th Doctor was at one point intended to regnerate in the Comic arc 'The Flood' prior to the time war actually starting) and recently confirmed that Rose was never intended to be his first adventure, so there was certainly room for expansion.
That said, Nine had a fantastic completed arc in Series 1, seeing a story set before that (or one that potentially undermines his Doctor's trauma) wouldn't necessarily work with this arc, using The Ninth Doctor would have probably made the story feel too celebratory of New Who with only the three new Doctors being involved in major roles, and if Moffat had his doubts about Eccleston's Doctor being responsible from the beginning it's hard to say why you'd want him writing 8 in, as I said above at least Eccleston's Doc has an on screen legacy to build on.
Casting Hurt as a hidden 'war' doctor though retroactive continuity, was a very useful shortcut for Moffat and adds alot to the mythos of Who i.m.o.
The Doctor has never taken to war or responsibility that well, and we've never seen him fight in a conflict of this scale before as viewers, never a coward but a man who'd rather run away from or negotiate than fight in a full scale war, even in his Seventh life he was more of a scheming chess player than a bloodthirsty grunt, as such an outcast 'War Doctor' who casts away the name adds to the mystery of the conflict and allows much more scope and freedom for storylines. The Time War is meant to be an unimaginably huge conflict, taking place off screen between Classic and New Who, as such it feels sorta right it has its own Doctor and personally as a viewer I find it easier to sympathize with a Warrior who fights without choice, rather than a Doctor throwing away his morals and fighting voluntarily.
Using John Hurt (who is frankly, an even better actor than McGann) as a grizzled veteran doctor creates several shortcuts, firstly-'Oh so this is the guy he fought the time war, gotcha I don't need to see anything else to know who he is and wouldn't feel confused upon finding out he has hundreds of non televised stories', casting an older actor as the third Doctor in the trio acts as something of cypher for the classic doctors who couldn't fit into the episode, with the older but younger War Doctor chastising his younger successors it's a neat callback to the Three Doctors, in Moffat's script there was precious little time and space for the Classic Doctors, and Hurt's elderly doctor acts as a cypher for them all, a metaphor for the off-screen years of the franchise and the Classic Doctors passing judgement on the New.
Creating the War Doctor to replace Eccleston was a lesser rewrite from a character point of view than using McGann would be, and frankly I just think it's a more interesting story.
Revealing that the Doctor had a hidden incarnation that we never knew about, and one he himself had outcast, instead of simply treading the expected ground that Eight or Nine went dark and did the deed surprised everyone and adds alot of mystery to the Doctors actions in the war, and it's a more exciting story from a marketing point of view. A secret Doctor is ripe for exploration (even if you hate the concept, a whole new doctor is alot of fun to play around with from a writers point of view), and it presented the fascinating opportunity for a rigorous study of what defines "the Doctor.", in a way no normal doctor could.
How far could he go as a 'good man'?; at what point does he stop being "the Doctor"? Do his actions rather than his name mark him as or not as the doctor? Does he deserve being outcast? And just how far was he willing to go in the time war?
And then we get the exploration on the "promise" and deeper meaning behind the Doctor's name, very interesting stuff in Hurt's hands.
The War Doctor also had the additional benefit of bumping up the regeneration limit (what better time to finally deal with the limit than in the 50th anniversary year?) helped build the hype for Smith's imminent regeneration and the war on Trenzalore (quite tragic really-he finally comes to terms with his past as the War Doctor and saves gallifrey only to be plunged soon afterwards into another war...) which in turn started Capaldi off completely fresh - Gallifrey is saved, the silence/trenazlore arcs are complete and he has a new mission, and plenty of new lives to explore the galaxy with once more.
I also like that it shifts the blame of the time war onto an outcast Doctor who has to earn the name once more (in universe I always found the idea that he kept the name doctor in the midst of a huge war a little weird) and there's more drama and subversion working following the war doctor as he starts out as more of a 'bad guy' and gradually becomes more of a doctor as time passes rather than 8 or 9 becoming dark, it's rather more interesting from a dramatic point of view, starting out with a man who isn't the Doctor, slowly becoming more of the man once more when exposed to warfare, and looking at the cliches of the war genre through the opposite perspective. This keeps the 'proper' doctors even more of a hero figure for children, and gives all new viewers one more mystery to explore and think about when they reach the 50th Anniversary episode.
Sure, you could argue that Moffat's basic reasoning for the war doctor (he couldn't imagine McGann pressing the button) was flawed, as we get to know him in a story where he's prevented (or overwrited depending on how you interpret the episode) from having to destroy Gallifrey in the first place rendering much of his purpose apparently pointless, however this also proves that there was an equally flawed reasonsing for using McGann in Day Of The Doctor...what would be the point in breaking the 8th Doctor into that mindset if he was prevented for destroying Gallifrey in the first place/or played a major part in its salvation? Even the War Doctor hesitates and is saved from doing so, so it's clear if Moffat didn't want to show the 'Warrior' doing the deed, he'd be even less likely to show 8's 'proper dotor' doing so.
Admittedly The Doctor has never made any secret of his actions in the war, nor denied the blood on his hands as a consequence of those actions, so in the literal sense the War Doctor wasn't a hidden incarnation in a way that really mattered, we'd always known that A Doctor had fought in the war, and we'd known since 'Dalek' that it was him that had 'destroyed' Gallifrey, so I can understand why the revelation about The War Doctor was for some a disappointment, the hype didn't necessarily match what we saw onscreen, but there's a limit to how dark the BBC could take things.
And yes, all other reasoning aside the gravitas of having McGann, one of the least likely Doctors to 'push the button' do it and destroy Gallifrey would have been amazing to see, he's a strong enough actor, and such a compelling Doctor that he would have nailed the role had it been written with him in mind i.m.o. But on the other hand seeing the Eigtht Doctors love of the universe and ultimately futile idealism lead to his downfall, and his willingness to lay down his life to save a stranger backfire and force him into finally throwing away the morals of his current regeneration was equally memorable and surprising, and more in keeping with the general tone of his Doctor.
You could certainly argue turning 8 into a warrior would have been merited or possibly expected by some as a character progression, considering the deaths of five of his companions at the hands of the daleks in the audios, the 8th Doctor has more reason than most to hold a grudge, and there would be some excellent drama hearing 8 become so angry and vengeful, but 8th Doctor has never really operated like that, he lacks the detachment and would be above holding petty grudges. One of Moffat's key points with the war Doctor, was that he was a burnt out warrior wishing he was the Doctor once more, he wasn't really the source of darkness everyone wanted, making McGann some sort of outcast grimdark killer would seem even more out of place.
You have to ask yourself, even if you aren't attached to Eight as a Doctor, surely you care about having the final choices of such a larger than life Doctor make sense? This is the man who tried to save The Master from death in the TV Movie even after he 'killed' Grace and tried to do the same to him, a doctor who'd rather point a gun at his own head than threaten others, the man who broke the laws of time to save Charley from the wreck of the R101, and the Doctor who risked his life to save Davros from the Nightmare Child even after all his losses againist the Daleks. You could argue many, if not all of the Doctors would have probably done something similar, but my point stands, Eight was generally a moral idealist and a romantic, he'd rather negotiate or run than fight, a man certainly not short of courage but also one who offered second chances when he didn't have to, and lived very much in the moment, I just don't believe his Doctor was detatched enough to become a warrior.
Other problems I had in turning McGann into the War Doctor are simply pragmatic, as we see in Day Of The Doctor its the final day of the War, all the implied rage and fire of the War Doctors early years (given that he's by engineered especially to fight by the Sisterhood, I'm guessing he'd have more fire and rage than an already rather old and worn down 8th doctor could ever have when the time war breaks out) was long gone in Moffat's script, casual audiences wouldn't have any idea as to how McGann's romatic scatterbrained adventurer had become this broken and battle hardened, its hardly fair to go and say to them 'Go and listen to several decades of audios, which are years away from catching up to this point anyway to get the implied context, by the way due to the BBC charter we can't really refer to the audios directly in the show anyway' to get them caught up with the Doctor's change in temperament. McGann's Doctor was so full of life and energy, it's very hard for me personally to picture him so cold and broken.
We saw the Doctors soul being saved by the moment, just a different Doctor, one perhaps even more tragically deserving of it, The War Doctor had spent his entire lifespan fighting an endless war, knowing on this final day as he chooses to detonate the moment it was all utterly pointless, only to be saved the actions of his successors, from a personal point of view I find it easier to 'get with' the redemption of a Warrior who in his words 'did it without choice' yet gradually walks back along the path to being the Doctor (I know some complained that in DOTD The War Doctor wasn't too bloodthirsty, merely exhausted, that was the point I think, John Hurt in DOTD wasn't the boogeyman 10 and 11's memories had made him out to be) rather than the actions of a the 8th Doctor who did it willingly.
Although I'm generally of the opinion the Time War should remain largely untold, but the War Doctor certainly adds to the mystery, interest and tragedy of the conflict for me, and I find the idea of a warrior walking along a path back to being the Doctor, rather than a Doctor being broken into a warrior more true to the character and series tone and rather more interesting from a character stand point. The War Doctor acts as an interesting parallel to many of 8s key character traits, and now gives us two time war Doctor with very different goals and viewpoints of the conflict.
Personally I thought John Hurt gave a magnificent performance as the War Doctor, making the most of his limited screentime, I enjoyed his/Moffat's interpretation of the character very much and I'm hopeful we'll see more of his doctor in the expanded media as the years pass, McGann would have undoubtedly done great things in the part, but honestly I think things worked out for the better.
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:59 am
ven so it's really hard to understand the arguments for McGann as the timewar Doctor- Malick
I think if you had only ever seen the tv movie its harder to see the reasoning- but if you have also followed 8 though BF it becomes clearer both why Moffat felt it was not right for 8 to be the War Doctor, and why he thought this way of going about it was the most fitting send off for 8's incarnation- for all the reasons you give above really.
I think if you had only ever seen the tv movie its harder to see the reasoning- but if you have also followed 8 though BF it becomes clearer both why Moffat felt it was not right for 8 to be the War Doctor, and why he thought this way of going about it was the most fitting send off for 8's incarnation- for all the reasons you give above really.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:00 am
Bluebottle wrote:McGann was the new Who Doctor who should have been. (He was better in a ten minute special than any of the officially elected new Who Doctors has ever has managed to be.)
I agree that his performance as the Doctor in the TV Movie, NOTD, audios (even his screentest) is incredible, and the 8th Doctor has become my favourite by quite some distance, however a large part of that is down to his storylines in the expanded media...and honestly looking/hearing his arc in the audios/books, I think McGann's found a better home there than he would have done on TV, of course it's hard to judge how the american continuation could have turned out and/or whether he the 8th Doctor would have been excepted as well as Eccleston's back in 2005, frankly things have probably worked out for th best for all concerned, though McGann was probably one of the biggest missed opportunities in the show's history...
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:03 am
Pettytyrant101 wrote:ven so it's really hard to understand the arguments for McGann as the timewar Doctor- Malick
I think if you had only ever seen the tv movie its harder to see the reasoning- but if you have also followed 8 though BF it becomes clearer both why Moffat felt it was not right for 8 to be the War Doctor, and why he thought this way of going about it was the most fitting send off for 8's incarnation- for all the reasons you give above really.
I think people just assumed it was McGann because at the time nothing really said it wasn't (though Russel Davies actually originally intended to regenerate the 8th Doctor in a comic, set before the time war even started), but likewise there wasn't anything at the time to say it was. As I said above, NOTD though short and only the climax of a story (one written in a couple of hours apparently) was a surprisingly fitting ending for such a heroic, larger than life doctor.
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:14 am
frankly things have probably worked out for the best for all concerned- Malick
I'd say so. Especially considering what was the plan for 8's series if it had got off the ground- which was to take some of the most popular Who stories of the past- starting at 1 and Dalek Invasion of Earth and 'reboot' them.
I for one am quite glad it fell apart when it did- leaving the one, badly flawed but at least watchable, TV movie.
'He was better in a ten minute special than any of the officially elected new Who Doctors has ever has managed to be'- Blue
Better than Capaldi?! I'd seriously beg to differ there and I'm a huge 8 fan.
I'd say so. Especially considering what was the plan for 8's series if it had got off the ground- which was to take some of the most popular Who stories of the past- starting at 1 and Dalek Invasion of Earth and 'reboot' them.
I for one am quite glad it fell apart when it did- leaving the one, badly flawed but at least watchable, TV movie.
'He was better in a ten minute special than any of the officially elected new Who Doctors has ever has managed to be'- Blue
Better than Capaldi?! I'd seriously beg to differ there and I'm a huge 8 fan.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:25 am
Pettytyrant101 wrote:frankly things have probably worked out for the best for all concerned- Malick
I'd say so. Especially considering what was the plan for 8's series if it had got off the ground- which was to take some of the most popular Who stories of the past- starting at 1 and Dalek Invasion of Earth and 'reboot' them.
I'm not completely sure about that, McGann originally auditioned for a straight reboot version where the Master and Doctor were half brothers, and he would going looking for his lost timelord explorer grandfather (or something like that) the final TV Movie was pretty different from what was first intended:
http://www.shannonsullivan.com/doctorwho/serials/tvm.html
If BF ever get the rights to Grace/Chang Lee/Eric Roberts (yeah, I actually don't mind his Master) I wouldn't be surprised if they did a 'lost season' arc for McGann...
Better than Capaldi?! I'd seriously beg to differ there and I'm a huge 8 fan
McGann's Doctor was written as fairly generic at points in the TV Movie, but McGann's energy and humour sell the role really well even then (he plays the role very similarly in his audition so evidently knew how we wanted to play the part from the start) he slots in straight away, Capaldi certainly nails the alien/anger/haunted aspects of the Doc very well, and I liked him from the start, but he said himself he still isn't completely sure how to play/explore his Doctor. They are both great i.m.o, but McGann's sheer energy and joy nudge him out for me.
These are the two scenes which I think of when I picture there Doctors:
Polar opposites i.m.o...*Moffat make a team up special please*
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:28 am
Polar opposites i.m.o- Malick
On the otherhand if you had picked from the same episode the scene where the doctor drags the TARDIS from the train lines and then does his little victory dance they would seem very much alike.
Although to be honest I was thinking more of acting chops than the roles being played- for me Capaldi is the highest calibre of actor to probably ever have played the role. And its not like there havent been some good ones before him.
On the otherhand if you had picked from the same episode the scene where the doctor drags the TARDIS from the train lines and then does his little victory dance they would seem very much alike.
Although to be honest I was thinking more of acting chops than the roles being played- for me Capaldi is the highest calibre of actor to probably ever have played the role. And its not like there havent been some good ones before him.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:35 am
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Polar opposites i.m.o- Malick
On the otherhand if you had picked from the same episode the scene where the doctor drags the TARDIS from the train lines and then does his little victory dance they would seem very much alike.
Although to be honest I was thinking more of acting chops than the roles being played- for me Capaldi is the highest calibre of actor to probably ever have played the role. And its not like there havent been some good ones before him.
Now I'm picturing Capaldi nicking Graces shoes, and shouting about his love of astronomy in a random park at midnight, not quite as endearing
whereas Eight would probably have a nice quite chat with the boneless before sending them on their way...As for acting chops...what about Hurt or Troughton?
Though all the Doctors have been great in their own way.
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:38 am
Troughton might be up to Capladi levels of acting. Hurt is, but I wouldn't count him the same as he is only in one special so not a fair comparison and he was sort of specifically drafted in. I'll probably count him if he gets a few War Doctor BF stories under his belt.
'Though all the Doctors have been great in their own way. '
Agreed
'Though all the Doctors have been great in their own way. '
Agreed
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Bluebottle Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:46 am
Pettytyrant101 wrote:'He was better in a ten minute special than any of the officially elected new Who Doctors has ever has managed to be'- Blue
Better than Capaldi?! I'd seriously beg to differ there and I'm a huge 8 fan.
Oh, far far superior to Cipaldi. What McGann showed in that 10 minute special is exactly what New Who has been looking for for 10 odd years. As I said.. in that special was the promise of what Doctor Who could have been in it's modern incarnation.
Cipaldi is ok. He is probably the one I rate highest of the New Who actors. His tenure has several issues though. One that Moffat is in two minds of how to write him. He is so disjointed in mood and character it's not like mode swings, it's like two entirely different characters. And he, to my mind, lacks a distinct personality as the Doctor. He is too much himself when he plays the role.
As for the other New Who Doctors, I found Smith appalling. Tennant was better, although not great, but was hampered majorly by the writing he was supplied with. Eccleston was probably around Smith, maybe a little better, maybe a little worse.
All in all. Not much to write home about.
McGann though.. What could have been..
_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
Bluebottle- Concerned citizen
- Posts : 10100
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 38
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:15 am
What could have been.. - Blue
Potentially a complete disaster made by Fox- careful what you wish for.
I dont agree at all that 12 is not coherent, there has been character development and growth but I just re watched the first half of series 8 and there is so much which has bearing on his development and character in series 8 and 9 than its clear they were following a preset idea of where they were going with the character (though not without refinement that comes from just the actor finding their feet in the role and the writers adapting to write for their style- for that reason I always thought the best approach they took was for 11, where his debut episode was actually shot in the middle of shooting so he had a take on the character already).
As for Smith- my second favourite NUWHo Doctor. I can understand you not enjoying his run because you seem to dislike everything Moffat touches, but his acting is excellent as the old soul in a young body.
Potentially a complete disaster made by Fox- careful what you wish for.
I dont agree at all that 12 is not coherent, there has been character development and growth but I just re watched the first half of series 8 and there is so much which has bearing on his development and character in series 8 and 9 than its clear they were following a preset idea of where they were going with the character (though not without refinement that comes from just the actor finding their feet in the role and the writers adapting to write for their style- for that reason I always thought the best approach they took was for 11, where his debut episode was actually shot in the middle of shooting so he had a take on the character already).
As for Smith- my second favourite NUWHo Doctor. I can understand you not enjoying his run because you seem to dislike everything Moffat touches, but his acting is excellent as the old soul in a young body.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Bluebottle Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:30 am
I'm talking about the special, not the TV-movie. (Which I don't rate. And I'm glad the FOX version never got off the ground too. (That would if anything had been worse than New Who.))
And my simple point is the McGann of Night of the Doctor would have been the perfect New Who Doctor.
And my simple point is the McGann of Night of the Doctor would have been the perfect New Who Doctor.
_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
Bluebottle- Concerned citizen
- Posts : 10100
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 38
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Bluebottle Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:31 am
Pettytyrant101 wrote:I can understand you not enjoying his run because you seem to dislike everything Moffat touches
That's amusingly pointed at someone who's just spent multiple posts praising Night of the Doctor.
_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
Bluebottle- Concerned citizen
- Posts : 10100
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 38
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:58 am
Ok I'll caveat my statement to include, 'except 10 minute shorts'- though given it displays nearly all the usual writing tropes of his not sure why if you dont like his longer stuf (shock reveal?- check, pulling the rug out from the viewer when they don't expect it?-check, resurrecting a character that has apparently died?- check,the whole thing taking place in a different time from the main story yet directly effecting it?-check)
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by David H Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:45 am
watched 2 doctors and trial of a timelord. no regen for 6?
_________________
David H- Horsemaster, Fighting Bears in the Pacific Northwest
- Posts : 7194
Join date : 2011-11-18
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:15 am
Its at the start of the next series- Time and the Rani- 7's first episode.
They basically sacked C. Baker inbetween series, which he was understandably not best pleased with, and he refused to come back for a regen scene. The rather cheap and nasty one we get at the start of Rani is basically Mccoy in Bakers costume (despite being half his size) and wearing a really bad curly blonde wig.
What did you make of the 2 Doctors- I have rather a soft spot for it but I suspect its more to do with seeing one of my favourite Doctor/companion teams again in 2 and Jamie.
They basically sacked C. Baker inbetween series, which he was understandably not best pleased with, and he refused to come back for a regen scene. The rather cheap and nasty one we get at the start of Rani is basically Mccoy in Bakers costume (despite being half his size) and wearing a really bad curly blonde wig.
What did you make of the 2 Doctors- I have rather a soft spot for it but I suspect its more to do with seeing one of my favourite Doctor/companion teams again in 2 and Jamie.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Bluebottle Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:37 pm
Pettytyrant101 wrote:Ok I'll caveat my statement to include, 'except 10 minute shorts'- though given it displays nearly all the usual writing tropes of his not sure why if you dont like his longer stuf (shock reveal?- check, pulling the rug out from the viewer when they don't expect it?-check, resurrecting a character that has apparently died?- check,the whole thing taking place in a different time from the main story yet directly effecting it?-check)
And with that comment I think the need for any further discussion disappear. What's the point in me stating my opinion if you are just going to tell me what it is anyway..
_________________
“We're doomed,” he says, casually. “There's no question about that. But it's OK to be doomed because then you can just enjoy your life."
Bluebottle- Concerned citizen
- Posts : 10100
Join date : 2013-11-09
Age : 38
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:52 pm
Bluebottle wrote:
Oh, far far superior to Cipaldi. What McGann showed in that 10 minute special is exactly what New Who has been looking for for 10 odd years. As I said.. in that special was the promise of what Doctor Who could have been in it's modern incarnation.
Out of interest what exactly do you think McGann showed in NOTD? For me it was a mixture of snarky humour, heroism and world weary anger, but McGann wasn't really given much character depth to work with in NOTD, although the dialogue and regen seem tailor made for his Doctor, he's definitely relying on his prior Big Finish experience to play the role, and it's really his charisma and the tragedy of the situation that makes it work, it's hard to say whether he would have made storylines like Sleep No More or Love an Monsters work without the development of years of audios.
Many elements of New Who are actually inspired or outright pinched from the wilderness years (in the BBC 8th Doctor books; transgender regeneration's are introduced, he encounters the fallout from a massive time war bleeding back across his timeline, reunites with Sarah Jane and K-9, is forced to 'destroy' Gallifrey, comes across his own future corpse, falls in love with several of his companions (most of which have there own complex storylines), explores a parallel universe etc) anyway...
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by Pettytyrant101 Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:04 pm
And with that comment I think the need for any further discussion disappear. What's the point in me stating my opinion if you are just going to tell me what it is anyway.. - Blue
Sorry Blue- I thought the reply was suitably tongue in cheek for you to get it was meant as a jest.
(although you have to admit there is some irony in your complaints of Moffat being nearly all contained in the short you say you like!)
Malick- yeah the Wilderness Years have produced a wealth of material to draw on that has two advantages- its not officially canon so you can nick ideas from it for canon, and only a small audience is aware of it, so the ideas remain seemingly new to the wider watching audience of the TV show.
Sorry Blue- I thought the reply was suitably tongue in cheek for you to get it was meant as a jest.
(although you have to admit there is some irony in your complaints of Moffat being nearly all contained in the short you say you like!)Malick- yeah the Wilderness Years have produced a wealth of material to draw on that has two advantages- its not officially canon so you can nick ideas from it for canon, and only a small audience is aware of it, so the ideas remain seemingly new to the wider watching audience of the TV show.
_________________
Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
Compiled and annotated by Eldy.
- get your copy here for a limited period- free*
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yjYiz8nuL3LqJ-yP9crpDKu_BH-1LwJU/view
*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
the crabbit will suffer neither sleight of hand nor half-truths. - Forest
Pettytyrant101- Crabbitmeister
- Posts : 46837
Join date : 2011-02-14
Age : 53
Location : Scotshobbitland
Re: Doctor Who [12]
by malickfan Sun Jan 10, 2016 1:07 pm
Bluebottle wrote:
Cipaldi is ok. He is probably the one I rate highest of the New Who actors. His tenure has several issues though. One that Moffat is in two minds of how to write him. He is so disjointed in mood and character it's not like mode swings, it's like two entirely different characters. And he, to my mind, lacks a distinct personality as the Doctor. He is too much himself when he plays the role.
As for the other New Who Doctors, I found Smith appalling. Tennant was better, although not great, but was hampered majorly by the writing he was supplied with. Eccleston was probably around Smith, maybe a little better, maybe a little worse.
All in all. Not much to write home about.
McGann though.. What could have been..
I like most of Tennant's storylines, but I find his Doctor fairly boring, whiny and full of himself, he's more of a hyperactive teenager than ancient alien i.m.o
Smith and Capaldi are both excellent in my opinion.
Smith has a fantastic sense of comic timing, and sold the idea of a old man trapped in a young man's body really well, he struggled a little with outright anger or mystery, but you definitely got the sense he was an alien hiding something, I don't really like much of his tenure, but he really impressed me for such a inexperienced actor, he's probably one of the most child friendly incarnations and that isn't a bad thing.
Capaldi sells the rage, anger and haunted loneliness of the Doctor really, really well i.m,o, he's an interesting blend of self loathing old man with a death wish, and emotionally fragile alien who hides his pain with snark and odd humour, he's not the larger than life hero that was 10 or 11 or the Champion of Time like 7, just an old, rather reserved wanderer in time and space. Capaldi reminds me of the first 3 or 4 Doctors crossed with the gravitas and anger of Eccleston or C.Baker, you truly get the sense he's an alien.
Eccleston is a very good actor, the 9th Doctor was a very charismatic mixture of haunted angry veteran and reluctant father figure with a immature sense of humour, though I do think Eccleston's performance was a little uneven for his first few episodes, and his costume makes him look like an angry binman drowning his sorrows in the local boozer, not perhaps completely convincing as a 'Doctor' but an interesting take on the character.
This scene remains Eccleston's best in Who i.m.o:
_________________
The Thorin: An Unexpected Rewrite December 2012 (I was on the money apparently)
The Tauriel: Desolation of Canon December 2013 (Accurate again!)
The Sod-it! : Battling my Indifference December 2014 (You know what they say, third time's the charm)
Well, that was worth the wait wasn't it
I think what comes out of a pig's rear end is more akin to what Peejers has given us-Azriel 20/9/2014
malickfan- Adventurer
- Posts : 4989
Join date : 2013-09-10
Age : 32
Location : The (Hamp)shire, England
Page 24 of 33 • 1 ... 13 ... 23, 24, 25 ... 28 ... 33
Page 24 of 33
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum