Doctor Who [12]

Eccelston has commented since that he was neither that comfortable with, or felt he got right, the humour parts of the character and scripts. I would agree there- he is great at the war veteran side of things, but with the humour he is often a bit uncomfortable and unsure so it comes off as a bit awkward and stagey.

With 10- well he is my least favourite NuWho Doctor, not alien enough, too human, too whiny and emo by the end and as a Who fan its hard to forgive his final conversation with Wilfred about regeneration being like death and his final 'I dont want to go' line- especially as 10 said exactly the opposite about the process when he first regened from 9 and in reassuring Rose he was same person who 'just changed'.

When it comes to 10's episodes in truth there are not that many I find i can watch start to finish, but there are a lot of episodes I really like bits of, or scenes in- a good example is the Dalek/Davros reality bomb stolen earth story- its pretty bloody bad from concept onwards in my view- but the scene where the Doctor is confronted by Davros and we get the 'man who runs because he dare not look back' conversation is brilliant.
I find a lot of 10 episodes like that- some great moments- like Wilfred and the Doctor in the spaceship discussing war, verus complete rubbish like the whole Master Race crap solved with a wave of the hand in the same story.

For me the difference between my feelings on RTD and Moffat boil down to Moffat era can be up and down episode to episode (arguably Who always has been) whereas RTD is up and down inside individual episodes. When it comes to rewatching RTD I find myself just rewatching scenes as I cant be bothered with the surrounds usually.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
What did you make of the 2 Doctors- I have rather a soft spot for it but I suspect its more to do with seeing one of my favourite Doctor/companion teams again in 2 and Jamie.

There was some fun in it, and Troughton and Jamie raised the bar I thought, though not to 6 and Peri's advantage.  The two big issues I had with it were how they handled the two Doctors being at the same place and time, and how the relationship between 6 and Peri was portrayed.  Although 6 didn't try to strangle her or physically threaten her this episode, there was a catch and a whine in her voice, fear and hurt in her eyes, and a cowering cringe in her every movement that seemed to imply she was expecting the back of a hand at any moment. Don't know why they chose to go this route. It makes it hard for me to like either character.

And after laying the groundwork for what could have been a clever excuse about two doctors meeting due the the unauthorized time travel experiments threatening the whole bubble of time, they postpone the question till the very end, then dismiss the whole concept with something like "Well if you timetravel as much as we do, you're bound to bump into each other from time to time. No problem really."  
That's not what they said in "Three Doctors"....

Bluebottle wrote:

Pettytyrant101 wrote:'He was better in a ten minute special than any of the officially elected new Who Doctors has ever has managed to be'- Blue

Better than Capaldi?! I'd seriously beg to differ there and I'm a huge 8 fan.

Oh, far far superior to Capaldi. What McGann showed in that 10 minute special is exactly what New Who has been looking for for 10 odd years. As I said.. in that special was the promise of what Doctor Who could have been in it's modern incarnation.

Capaldi is ok. He is probably the one I rate highest of the New Who actors. His tenure has several issues though. One that Moffat is in two minds of how to write him. He is so disjointed in mood and character it's not like mode swings, it's like two entirely different characters. And he, to my mind, lacks a distinct personality as the Doctor. He is too much himself when he plays the role.

McGann though.. What could have been..

I agree about McGann. He would have been epic.

I also agree about Capaldi being disjointed and lacking a distinct character. Even after two whole seasons I still only really understood or liked him in the last 3 episodes.

malickfan wrote:
Eccleston is a very good actor, the 9th Doctor was a very charismatic mixture of haunted angry veteran and reluctant father figure with a immature sense of humour, though I do think Eccleston's performance was a little uneven for his first few episodes, and his costume makes him look like an angry binman drowning his sorrows in the local boozer, not perhaps completely convincing as a 'Doctor' but an interesting take on the character.

I think they were going for a complete change from the velvet foppish look that McGann sported. Eccleston looked urban and was supposed to be Northern which is unusual, but he certainly doesn't look like a bin-man, he looks more an angry Socialist who teaches Modernist poetry down at Manchester polytechnic. I do like your description of him as a haunted angry veteran with a silly sense of humour, its spot on. if he had been more sarcastic it would have been more entertaining, but he certainly kicked off Nu-Who extremely well.

Although 6 didn't try to strangle her or physically threaten her this episode, there was a catch and a whine in her voice, fear and hurt in her eyes, and a cowering cringe in her every movement that seemed to imply she was expecting the back of a hand at any moment.- David

Interesting observation. I have wondered in the past whether its just the nature of 6 or that nature plus the way his companion reacts to him thats creates the issue. I wonder if Peri had been the sort to just not flinch, stand up to him sure in herself, and be simply dismissive of his more arrogant outbursts as they deserve whether both their characters would not have come off better for it. But in fairness there was always a plan- to start him off very arrogant, brutish even and then to reveal more beneath over time. Baker himself says of the TV versio0n of his Doctor that they simply were not given the time to 'peel back the layers'. Fortunately BF did so. Testament I think to this is that in DW Magazine poll his Doctor was the least favourite classic Doctor, but he topped the list for favourite BF Doctor, beating even the popularr and prolific McCann. And even in the TV show is pure zest for doing the right thing, for protecting the weak is probably stronger than ever- its just how he goes about is the problem.
Also Baker hated the costume aid it looked like an explosion in a rainbow factory- the costume he pushed for but never got was close to what 9 ended up in.


'I also agree about Capaldi being disjointed and lacking a distinct character.' - Figg

To me thats like saying the 1st Doctor lacks a distinct character because one minute he is kidnapping his companions and wanting to cave an injured mans head in and the next he is as giddy and excitable as a kid full of sugar.

'I still only really understood or liked him in the last 3 episodes.'

You arent really supposed to understand him- he is in his own words 'a man of mystery' and one of the things said from the start by all concerned was the desire to make the Doctor once more less predictable, less known. To make the viewer a bit uneasy when he runs off and says dont worry Ill be back if really he will. Doctor Who after all.

'he looks more an angry Socialist who teaches Modernist poetry down at Manchester polytechnic'- Figg

That was more the vibe I got to- angry socialist worker. Down the docks shouting for the Unions type was what the look said to me. A bit of Boys From the Black Stuff.

'he certainly kicked off Nu-Who extremely well.'

He did do that. Its just a shame that whenever quite felt he got the humour right, and that whatever the buggery went on backstage happened making him leave. Its hard to judge a Doctor on one series alone, everyone from actor to writers and director are still finding their feet. I think with an actor like Eccleston who is very talented but quit method I believe another series would have been all he needed to solve his acting dilemmas on how to do the Doctors more eccentric side as well as his darker one.

Mrs Figg wrote:

malickfan wrote:
Eccleston is a very good actor, the 9th Doctor was a very charismatic mixture of haunted angry veteran and reluctant father figure with a immature sense of humour, though I do think Eccleston's performance was a little uneven for his first few episodes, and his costume makes him look like an angry binman drowning his sorrows in the local boozer, not perhaps completely convincing as a 'Doctor' but an interesting take on the character.

I think they were going for a complete change from the velvet foppish look that McGann sported. Eccleston looked urban and was supposed to be Northern which is unusual, but he certainly doesn't look like a bin-man, he looks more an angry Socialist who teaches Modernist poetry down at Manchester polytechnic. I do like your description of him as a haunted angry veteran with a silly sense of humour, its spot on. if he had been more sarcastic it would have been more entertaining, but he certainly kicked off Nu-Who extremely well.

I agree that a complete change to a more modern, tougher Doctor was a necessary move to bring the show up to date, but for me there's just something a tad...off? about Eccleston's performance in some of the episodes, whether that was down to the rumoured behind the scenes troubles, him finding his feet in a very different role to what he normally played or just the uneven tone of series 1 (one minute he's fighting farting aliens in Downing Street a few episodes along he's trapped in a deadly Dalek massacre) I just felt he never completely got the role nailed down, he's certainly a very good Doctor, and nearly a great one, but didn't quite manage to balance the darkness and humour i.m.o.

As Petty says it's a shame didn't stay longer as another series or 2 would have probably ironed out any writing/tonal issues, but 9's character arc was very well handled in his sole series, and I suppose it benefited the show explaining the concept of Regeneration early on. Best just to appreciate what Who we have, rather than regret that which we don't I suppose.

I haven't really seen much of Colin Baker, but I like that his Doctor is more arrogant and full of bluster, it's kinda refreshing that not all the Doctors are immediately approachable, he is supposed to be a very old, very mysterious alien after all. Davidson's Doctor generally seems to be known as the nice, fallible one, so I suppose having his successor be much less patient and more self important was a necessary move to keep the character fresh.

Pettytyrant101 wrote: But in fairness there was always a plan- to start him off very arrogant, brutish even and then to reveal more beneath over time. Baker himself says of the TV versio0n of his Doctor that they simply were not given the time to 'peel back the layers'.

I could sense some of that in the pains they went to in Trial to show the affection between them.  But the trouble with a plan like that it means absolutely nothing if the audience doesn't connect with the characters enough to follow the series through.  They've always been good about certain types of hooks, doing  scary intros before the opening credits and cliffhanger endings before the final credits, but they seem to have not learned a critical part of the formula from commercial TV. If the audience doesn't like or care about the characters, they're going to change channels at the first commercial. You need to hook the positive emotions too, not just the fear.

I think NuWho sometimes suffers from this as well, aiming for too long and lofty a story arc and losing some of the audience sympathy along the way.

Malick I quit watching Who somewhere in the 5th Doctor era, just a part of growing up.
I did come back for the 6th but I stayed for his run then gave up again after about 3 epiosdes of McCoy jappery. Again judging too soon, as his second series was a vast improvement.
My main feelings at the time was just how cheap and tacky it all looked. Very superficial of my youthful self of course.
Having gone back to 6 I find myself a bit of a closet 6 fan (and out the closet when taking BF into account).
There are clear bits of 6 in 12 too. But then with Capaldi they're all in there all the time ready to emerge.

I've listened to a couple of Colin's audios, The Holy Terror is a Masterpiece, and he's far from unlikable there.

gave up again after about 3 epiosdes of McCoy jappery

Oddly enough I gave up on Radagast after 3 seconds of Mcoy's jappery

Oh, 2 Doctors had real full-sized Sontarans!
I couldn't help noticing that 2 taunted Stike by referring to him as "my nurse". That's gotta be where the concept of Strax came from.

I went off Who because of Davidson.

You know I just noticed going through Who vids, that the vast majority of stuff I post here is not produced by a Brit or by anyone in the UK. Its nearly all from elsewhere in the world (the above is Rusian).
That might seem obvious for a show whose 50th got over 80 million people around the globe in 1,500 countries to simultaneously tune in for it, but for a show that has through most of my life been so British, so idiosyncratic it still seems to odd to me that, with 12 years of NuWho now, there is a whole new generation of foreigners who have grown up with the show just as I did. I love that. But its still weird.


On the subject of global ratings heres Moffat on the Who global ratings-

'"For the record, 77 million is the correct rating - that's what we get internationally," said the writer, "It's only the papers that care - and it's only a certain section of fandom that cares. The BBC knows exactly how huge Doctor Who is."- The Independent

Figgy's in Italy, I've argued with you for years and Norc been spamming the place with Sherlock like she's getting paid and you just now actually realized it's not just Brits watching? You know what that means, right?

It will just be another 10 years or so and you'll realize why we don't like Amy!! 

But she has masses of tribute vids from foreigners Nope Im sure its actually just you two

*mumbles to self* Just ten more years to go.

10 years at least.

Just for you two-

Stumbled across this- its the twitter activity when Day of the Doctor was broadcast-



Two things I found interesting.

First how quiet it goes whilst the actual episode is on.
And secondly the majority of those watching and on twitter were women. Amazing how Moffats blatantly sexist writing draws them in like a moth to the candle! Lucky really there women, weak minded and easily fooled!

Or like us, hoping this time it will be better.

Lucky really there women, weak minded and easily fooled! Petty

Its funny but you generally don't get this level of snidery from RTD fans.

'you generally don't get this level of snidery from RTD fans.' - Figg

I prefer to call it irony.
And thats because Moffat fans like me criticise RTD's writing of Who, not the man himself. And give him his due place as the man who brought the show back and made it popular again.
Whereas RTD fans attack Moffat on a personal level and make insane conspiracy like claims against him in attempts to slur his name and give him no due at all, and so deserve all the irony that can be thrown at them. At least the ones here do.

whatever.

Well it's a good thing you don't resort to name calling, generalizing or conspiracy theories then Petty. Imagine the irony if that ever happened.