Doctor Who [12]

Thats cracking Chris

Got to love Capaldi- he just seems such a genuinly nice bloke.

A bunch of fans made a birthday wishes video for him on his birthday- and he only went and responded to everyone in it personally, and in their own language!

Yeah, he does seem a lovely guy, I liked that he remembered the deaf ones & said thankyou to them

I think a part of it is because when he himself was a young fan he wrote a lot to the BBC- and they started him on his career by sending him (And this would NEVER happen now) a script for an upcoming episode, with all the production notes ect so that he could get a better understanding of how TV was made. He has said in interviews it was something which made him see it all in a new light, and as something you could actually work in.

So I think he really gets just what it can mean to a fan when the show takes time to not generally acknowledge them, but to personally do so.

David-

Just in light of more recent controversy over Who science- say Take the Moon- they weren't planting deeper scientific seeds in that one but deeper moral ones- and the science shall we say takes an extreme back seat to that narrative.
How does it compare to Logopolis and its 'science' versus being worth planting seeds?

For me science in Who for a very long time has been secondary to what the writer is trying to say, and can be bet any old way really to suit it.
So I dont se a fundemental difference between the two episodes in that regard.

Also overall thoughts onthe epiosde- on the Watcher? On how 4 went out with the fall.

Thoughts on 5's début episode and how he plays the role?

I see the point you're making about planting seeds, both scientific (or maybe philosophical) and moral. I'll have to give it more thought, but just for now I'd say that there's a big difference in the latitude that you can take when a story is set a made-up time and place vs. when it's set on a recognizable modern earth. The Dr Who universe allow both, but I find a very different tone between the two. The Earth stories are grounded in a way the others aren't, the off-Earth stories are almost dreamlike in a way, and allow more room to expand ones thoughts (which is why so much good hard sci-fi is set there I'm sure.)

I'm still keeping an open mind about regenerations because I can see the rules are still being changed in these early series. The watcher was a little confusing. I could tell it wasn't going to be an evil being from early on, but even with the remark after 4 walks up to the bridge and talks with him, I wasn't ready for it being another incarnation of himself because of the rules that seemed to be in place from The Three Doctors. Don't quite know what to make of it still.

Likewise, the whole chase through the antenna and 4's fall seemed not as thoughtful or powerful as it could have been. I don't think the writers had yet realized the powerful opportunity that a death/regeneration provides. It was more like "Get this one gone so we can get on with the new one." And what does "prepared for" mean?

I can see the rules are still being changed in these early series.- David

Its not so much as that (and I don't know how many of the regen episodes you've watched yet so Ill not be specific) but every regen in the classic era is quite different from the other and not just visually.
The Watcher concept, what it is ect is all a one off (save some external stories in novels and BF). Its never really explained in the show, its never really mentioned again. If ever.

As to the prepared statement- the general assumption is that the Watcher told him what its nature was in the conversation between them we only witness from a distance. The point where the Doctor hangs his head would seem to be the point the Watcher reveals what has to come.

Three rather nice spoiler filled Who vids-

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
Its not so much as that (and I don't know how many of the regen episodes you've watched yet so Ill not be specific) but every regen in the classic era is quite different from the other and not just visually.

I've now seen recently seen the 1st-4th and 7th regenerations, as well as 8th, 10th and 11th which I'd seen in the past without much context.
I'm just 2 episodes into Castrovalva and starting to figure out what Davison is doing with the role. I'd seen a few 5th Dr episodes back in the 80's, but I mostly remember Davison as Tristan from All Creatures Great and Small. It will take me a little while before I'm ready to form any opinions.

I'll probably finish Castrovalva tonight and probably make a start on 5 Doctors if I've got time.

OK, I just binge-watched Castrovalva, 5 Doctors, Caves of Androzini, and Twin Dilemma, so I've got some opinions on 5 forming, and I'm pretty sure Peri is is an abusive relationship with 6.

Peri's American accent isn't bad at times, but it fades in and out, often hovering in the  mid-Atlantic but sometimes suddenly jumping to broad parody, especially when the writers have included bits of Yankee slang.  Is there a reason why  she was written as American?

Castrovalva seemed to be inspired by and M C Escher print.  Another good example of planting seeds while telling a story.  

5Doctors - not much story really but very interesting to see the interplay between them, and how the writers handled the characters differently. A shame 4 has only a token appearance. I presume there were contract or scheduling issues?

 Caves - decent story.  The 5 doctor is not at his best in a crisis though. He often seems more like a victim than an active player. As Peri puts it to 6, "He was sweet". I'm not sure how I feel about that, but he certainly was more charming and entertaining than 6 so far, at least judging by the first story. I'm going to try to give him the benefit of the doubt till the regeneration has settled down.
(Though he better stop abusing Peri. That's just not right.)

I watched a video last night thats been lurking on my shelf eyeing me up begging to be seen. Its "The Ice Warriors" with Patrick Troughton. It has an audiovisual link between episodes as apparently episode 2 & 3 are missing ?? I didnt know Bernard Bresslaw, the gentle giant from the "Carry On" films was the "king" Ice Warrior? Peter Sallis from "Last of The Summer Wine" was in it, with hair ! It had a good idea for a story & I liked it more than I thought I would because...... the story is shared out evenly. Each character had his 5mins, it wasnt focused on one person only which Ive noticed Moffat can do. It was about the "story" not the person. It genuinely had creepy moments also.

Is there a reason why  she was written as American?- David

Not that I know of other than they wanted an American companion- what I never understand is why they don't just go cast an American when they want one- though Peri has her moments.

'A shame 4 has only a token appearance. I presume there were contract or scheduling issues? '

Hissy fit- one Tom Baker later regretted. He got quite full of himself in his last couple of years in the role- even went as far as trying to convince the production team his Doctor didn't need a companion it should just be him- he offered his resignation over one such dispute assuming they would never accept it- but they did.
So when the Anniversary episode came about he refused to have anything to do with it- the footage in the episode of 4 is taken from Shada- a Douglas Adams penned story that because of industrial action at the BBC was never completed or broadcast (it was meant to be a series finale- though Adams reused a lot of the story and a lot of the characters in his first Dirk gently book, which takes elements of The City of Death which he wrote -the one set in Paris around the Mona Lisa- and Shada and combines them into one story.)

As an anniversary special how did you think it compared to the 50th?
I think the 5 doctors shows the risk of having too many characters and not enough time to give them all something meaningful to do- I mean for every Doctor after the first this is the only time any of him have seen Susan, their granddaughter since she left the TARDIS- yet its just brushed off with a line of dialogue like its not important at all because there isn't the time to cram it all in.


'I'm going to try to give him the benefit of the doubt till the regeneration has settled down.'

Arguable with 6 if that ever actually happens (at least on TV- 6 has a much more rounded and satisfying charterer development arc if you include the BF stories too). It will be very interesting to see what you make of 6 overall.


'It has an audiovisual link between episodes as apparently episode 2 & 3 are missing ??'- Azriel

Sadly due to a BBC policy of recording over stuff to save costs most of the second Doctor's run is missing, or stories are incomplete. Huge shame as what does remain is rather good overall (and fortunately that includes the entire final series- which is just as well as its one huge series long story- the first series 'story arc' in fact, 'War Games', though it is in isolation, the series arc did not come back up again for a long time, and this one was out of necessity- but thats a long story, basically they had to write a whole load of episodes very quickly, so decided to do one huge story- actually given the circumstances it was written in its surprisingly good).

'it wasnt focused on one person only which Ive noticed Moffat can do. It was about the "story" not the person. '

Interesting you should say that Azriel as the 2nd Doctor is arguably where the Doctor moves from background figure to main character- with Hartnell, and particularly the later stuff where ill health was a factor, the Doctor is often not the main lead, or absent all together, with the Companions, Ian and Barbera in particular, and Zoe and Steven taking the lead roles. The original thinking behind casting a younger male in the companion role was to have an 'action hero' lead.
But that began to change with the 2nd Doctor as Troughton was young and fit enough to do his own action stuff. By the time 2 regens into 3 the Doctor is out and out the main lead and action hero has has remained so every since really, with some exceptions- 5 was not much of an action hero but he is still the main character.

Is there a reason why she was written as American?- David

Not that I know of other than they wanted an American companion- what I never understand is why they don't just go cast an American when they want one- though Peri has her moments.

Good actors seem quite capable of doing accents, I don't think you have to cast by nationality. You do have to make sure the accents are believable if you do that.

David H wrote:

 Caves - decent story.  The 5 doctor is not at his best in a crisis though. He often seems more like a victim than an active player...

As I understand it Doctor Who was a fairly big cult hit in North America in the 1980s, and the current producer of the series, Jonathan Nathan Turner frequently attended panels and convetions, keen to grow the audience internationally so maybe they made Peri American in an effort to broaden appeal abroad?

I haven't really watched much of the 5th Doctor, but Peter Davidson has mentioned in interviews he was keen to portray the doctor as more fallible and human, from the clips I've seen he seems sorta like an older (but still youthful) brother who tries his best to help, but is often out of his depth and is continually dealt more and more shit by the universe, there's a fan theory that every second doctor is a reaction to the previous one's failings i.e 2 is more impish and comical than 1, 3 is a mostly serious 'action man', whilst 4 is a larger than life unpredictable alien, so looking at it that way 5's quiet, low key approach seems a natural consequence of 4's alien ego.

there's a fan theory that every second doctor is a reaction to the previous one's failings- Malick

It works fine till 7 then gets a bit tricky- as he starts off one thing but by his second series is quite different. From clown to chess master.

Same thing happens with the fan theory about accents in NuWho- that when the Doctor regens his accent can changed based on someone who had a profound effect on the previous regen- works fine for everyone bar 11- 10 goes all Dick Van Dyke because of Rose, and 12 goes Scottish because of Amy- 9 is tricky too, but as his accent is from the North and so is Clara's, and given the events of the 50th immediately preceding the War Doctors regen into 9 she is the favourite for the source of that accent.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:there's a fan theory that every second doctor is a reaction to the previous one's failings- Malick

It works fine till 7 then gets a bit tricky- as he starts off one thing but by his second series is quite different. From clown to chess master.

I'd read that 7 is developed into 'The Oncoming Storm' and 'Times Champion' in his later books and audios...no offense to Mcoy but personally after seeing him mug his way through TH with birdsh*te dripping down his face I don't think I could ever take him seriously (though I'd heard he'd a very good stage actor)

I'm not too familiar with 5-7, but this is how I see the Doctors

1. Starts out as a mysterious, hard edged Grandfather but softens into a silly uncle with a childish sense of humour

2. Cosmic Hobo, at first glance a silly tramp, but actually a somewhat morose trickster, more of a 'best friend' than father figure

3. Self Righterous Authority figure, and a proactive 'action man' who cuts to the chase

4. Larger than Life alien with a disarming smile and a abrasive unpredictable side

5. Fallible Older Brother out of his depth in a universe he struggles to understand the harshness of

6. Very brash and arrogant at first glance, but actually something of a softie at heart, who mostly fails to contain his outrage at the evil and injustice of the universe

7. Starts off as a clown, but grows into something of a morose, lonely 'chess player' who takes it upon himself to do the dirty work whereever he can

8. Starts off as a scatterbrained moral idealist, and a somewhat fragile, even childish romantic, who wears his hearts on his sleeve, in love with the sheer joy of discovery, in his later years he grows snarkier and ever more broken striving to hold onto hope and purpose in a universe growing ever darker, his ultimate failing being he simply cared too much.

War. (Judging soley from DOTD, we haven't seen/heard War in his younger years) Burnt out elderly gentleman masquerading as a warrior, willing and able to do whatever it takes to fight and win, but by this point largely operating on auto pilot, just wanting to end it all no matter the cost. The Doctor at his best and worst.

9. Haunted, angry veteran, who hides his pain with snarky quips and a cheesy grin, not as tough as he pretends

10. At first glance comes across as a hyperactive arrogant teenager with a eye for the ladies, but really quite a tragic, very flawed figure.

11. A mixture of eccentric professor and ancient man trapped in a very young man's body, very dark and unpredictable at times.

12. Goes from haunted old man with a death wish, questioning his morals and purpose to a aged rockstar with a new found love of life and back again, very mysterious and unpredictable doctor, uncaring of what others think of him and willing to do the unthinkable when pushed, but clearly a very lonely, haunted old man.

Interesting list Malick- not sure I agree entirely with them all, but over all yes.

Always liked 10 describing 1 as 'you know what its like when your young, trying to act all grown and serious'.

And 12's seemingly oblivious description of his younger self- 'I was a completely different person in those days. Eccentric, a bit mad, rude to people.'


Although it has to be said, taking all his incarnations into account 'Eccentric, a bit mad, rude to people.' is a fair summing up overall!

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Interesting list Malick- not sure I agree entirely with them all, but over all yes.

Always liked 10 describing 1 as 'you know what its like when your young, trying to act all grown and serious'.

I find it quite funny in multi doctor stories when the 'younger' doctors are actually usually the older more experienced ones giving advice to the older, but usally more childish predecessors, Hartnell's Doctor is often written off as being a grumpy old man, but he's probably one the silliest there is:

And 12's seemingly oblivious description of his younger self- 'I was a completely different person in those days. Eccentric, a bit mad, rude to people.'

I think oblivious and unintentionally ironic would also describe 12 rather well:

'You are looking nice today Clara...have you had a wash?'

Although it has to be said, taking all his incarnations into account 'Eccentric, a bit mad, rude to people.' is a fair summing up overall!

True, seems like you have all the qualities needed for the job

I'd read that 7 is developed into 'The Oncoming Storm' and 'Times Champion' in his later books and audios...no offense to Mcoy but personally after seeing him mug his way through TH with birdsh*te dripping down his face I don't think I could ever take him seriously (though I'd heard he'd a very good stage actor)- Malick


That is the advancement of the 'Cartmel Masterplan'!

'The overall plan for Cartmel was to reveal that the Doctor was some form of a reincarnation of the Other, a mysterious figure from Gallifrey's past who helped form the Time Lords' society and perfect the time travel technology of the Time Lords. An early draft of Ghost Light, set, at this stage, not in Gabriel Chase on Earth but the Doctor's ancestral home on Gallifrey, was planned as the lead-in to this reveal but the script was shot down by series producer John Nathan-Turner. Cartmel's plans were later incorporated into the Virgin New Adventures series, to which Cartmel and other writers from the late McCoy era contributed, paying off in the final New Adventure novel to feature the Seventh Doctor, Lungbarrow. Lungbarrow had as its origins a proposed early draft of "Ghost Light". The earlier version of "Ghost Light" in turn evolved into a new story and the new story into the novel. '-TARDIS CORE

The idea did get into the final series of classic, in a few lines of dialogue- including the Doctor famously saying he was 'Far more than just another Time Lord'

When RTD took over he seem to have partially kept some of this idea with all the Oncoming Storm- Doctor has the 'Lonely God' aspect.

Moffat in his turn has moved it more to the backburner but he has not abandoned it either, the most blatant reference coming from River lamenting the trials of loving the Doctor 'when your in love with an ageless God who insists on wearing the face of a twelve year old.'


'seems like you have all the qualities needed for the job'

I study hard


And I agree 1 can be among the silliest and most childlike of the Doctors incarnations- but it take a while for that side of him to come out.

Regards the Carmel masterplan the Other also features in Paul Cornell's original novel 'Human Nature', written for the 7th Doctor but adapted by him for tv for 10.

What's of particular interest here (apart from the removal of all the stuff about the Other- save the god like ending of the 'Fury of the Timelord') is that ideas were co-plotted by a preshowrunner Moffat.

'A possible origin[original research?] for the Other is provided by Human Nature, a 1995 Virgin New Adventures novel by Paul Cornell. In the novel, the Doctor transforms himself into John Smith, a human with only fragmentary memories of his past life. Smith writes a children's story about an old man in Victorian England who invents a police box larger on the inside and capable of travel through time and space. Lonely, the man visits the planet Gallifrey, where he finds a primitive tribe. He tells the Gallifreyans about science and the arts, teaches them to travel time and space, and advises them on how to be as civilised and law-abiding as England. When they grow dull and officious, he invents a way for them to begin new lives upon death, and gives them second hearts in hopes of making them more joyful. When this fails, he steals a police box and flees back to Earth, deciding that being free is better than being in charge. Smith's story was plotted by Cornell's friend Steven Moffat; Cornell stated, "He's always had some radical thoughts about Who, and it was good to be able to give expression to some of them."-wiki

Pettytyrant101 wrote:As an anniversary special how did you think it compared to the 50th?
I think the 5 doctors shows the risk of having too many characters and not enough time to give them all something meaningful to do- I mean for every Doctor after the first this is the only time any of him have seen Susan, their granddaughter since she left the TARDIS- yet its just brushed off with a line of dialogue like its not important at all because there isn't the time to cram it all in.

It's been a while since I saw Night/Day of the Doctor, and while it's much more ambitious that 3 Doctors or 5 Doctors, I think they all three depend on fan nostalgia to keep their engines running at times. Which is really just fine I think, as long as they only do them every decade or so.  

The biggest difference I see is that the Time Lords are the mechanism for breaking the timeline-crossing rule in the first two, while DoD uses a time crack if I remember right. It requires a lot more slight of hand to bring all the fans' old friends together by chance, without the agency of the Time Lords as an excuse (and also as a tool for exposition.) Take Bad Wolf/ Rose for example. It was great to see her again, but if you stopped and thought about it, it was quite contrived.

That's actually the biggest single difference between new and old Who in terms of narrative that I'm seeing so far. In the old ones there seem to be Time Lords popping up as Tibetan mystics, professors and whatnot all the time, with Gallifrey and the Council there to provide structure, rules, and deus ex machina escapes from time to time as needed. New who lacks this, which both elevates the Doctor and reduces the structure, often making it more challenging to follow. Which is not necessarily good or bad, just very different.

'In the old ones there seem to be Time Lords popping up as Tibetan mystics, professors and whatnot all the time, with Gallifrey and the Council there to provide structure, rules, and deus ex machina escapes from time to time as needed. New who lacks that structure, which is not necessarily good or bad, just very different.'- David

This ties in sort of to the Cartmel masterplan discussed above. In that the reason for that plan to begin with was the sense that the Doctor had lost a part of his mystery with 30 years worth of back story and all the Gallifrey Time Lords stuff.

Similarly when RTD brought it back he felt all the Time Lord stuff was weighing down the series and making it less about the Doctor just travelling about and doing stuff and too much about the political shenanigans on his home planet. So he invented the idea of the Time War as a means of getting rid of them (and at the time the Daleks as when they began NuWHo they did not yet have the rights to use the Daleks from the Terry Nation Estate).

Moffat- although he has brought them back, more or less, has been equally sparing in their use (though technically RTD brought them back in the sense that he brought them back into the show before he left- but kept them still at a distance and still lost in the time-locked Time War).


The Bad Wolf thing is an interesting observation- it is true she performs the basic narrative function the Time Lords did in previous specials- bringing the different Doctors time streams together- but it also let Moffat round a second problem, which was Rose- he felt where her story ended was a good point to leave it- and that continuing on with Rose proper from that point would not have worked and ruined RTD's original ending for her- I think he was right about that.