Sherlock - BBC [4]

Mrs Figg wrote:
I do think the first two seasons were fantastic and I really enjoyed them. At the time they were fresh and novel and sparkling. Martin Freeman and Cumberbutch bounced off each other and their friendship seemed real and I was excited to watch each episode. Personally I thought season 3 was everything you mentioned, it became shallow fanservice of the most boring kind. .... They had a winning formula and it got stale when they over used it.

That sums it up pretty well for me. Although they weren't always consistent, I loved the first 2 seasons, as did my teenage nephew and my elderly mom. That's a very rare thing in any medium, especially TV, to have a show that 3 generations can get equally excited about. But no formula is for ever, and I think the writers must have known that, so for season 3 they consciously chose to focus on my nephew and leave me and my mom behind.

Mrs Figg wrote:

Norc wrote:u forget the show is basically a slasher fiction, the writer have said so.. they don't care anymore about casual viewers, they're writing their own sherlock now. focusing on what they think the general public have gotten wrong all these year, the fact that it is a love story between two men, camouflaged as the greatest detective adventures of all time.

well to be fair it probably always was a love story between two men, even in Brett's version in the 80s, but it was platonic love. In Moffats version its more that the fans want it to be slash fiction, than what actually happens onscreen. I cant think of one scene where I think ey-up! are they gay or what, specially as Watson marries a woman.  On the other hand if you want a really gay adaptation just watch 'The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes' film 1970c. That's pretty overt.

yes, and the last one is their main inspiration. also, the director of private life has stated he regretted not going further with it. also, ofcouse i disagree with everything els you say, John is Bi and chooses Mary when sherlock is "dead" because he is heart-broken and needs to "move on"...

ok fair enough. Got to say the Bi thing went straight over my head.

'Mary's death is a classic example of fridging, arranged to create as much conflict as possible for the male leads.'

And this is a classic case of woman talking shite! Mary is an original character- one if written as Doyle had would be a background doormat who the writers sometimes forget exits at all, or cant even remember what name they gave her. Obviously thats not an option these days. Having written her up as more they still have to get rid of her, because thats what happens in the stories they are basing it on- so they do. That this then has an effect on her husband and a knock on effect on her husbands relationship with his friend is not fridging- its reacting- its human emotion.
What does the reviewer think had John just went "Ah well thats her dead then. Whats the next case Sherlock? How about some humourous banter?" that would be the right way to treat the death of a major female character?

Have you heard of someone called Tauriel? you know totally unnecessary love interest shoehorned in to a classic boys own story, boring pointless and politically correct bollox, well this is Mary. Total waste of scene time, nobody likes her, then hastily fridged when the plot doesn't need her any more.

'it's time to talk about the inexplicable subplot where John Watson sexts a random woman he met on the bus...John's wildly out-of-character flirtation with the Bus Lady. .. as an addition to John Watson's characterization in Sherlock, it's catastrophically inappropriate.'

Maybe its time to talk about the completely explicable adaptation of Watsons off the page (occasionally on it) roving eye for the ladies and multiple marriages into the modern adaptation. John Watson is no saint when it comes to women. Its part of his character. Is the reviewer even familiar with the material being adapted? It seems not.

Making John a weak and nasty character is not in keeping with his previous incarnation. He is newly married and has new baby, are we supposed to believe he is bored of both baby and Mary after a few weeks of sleepless nights? that he would even consider an affair with another woman while his wife had just given birth is just plain nasty. He may like marrying women but he doesn't treat them like shit and in the books he waits until one is gone before he goes on to the next one., and doesn't pick them up on buses, and texts while his wife is sleeping next to him. This is all wrong and unexcusable.

'it doesn't make sense in the context of Watson's previous characterization'

His previous characterisation re women prior to his marriage in Sherlock is that he could not settle with any one and got through a few.

You cant justify Johns actions by saying he likes women.

{{{Mary is nothing like Tauriel- Tauriel was invented and inserted into a preexisting story. Mary was in the originals and lasts for as about as long and what happened to her is never mentioned before wife no2 comes along.
So if they wanted to follow the development of John in the book's (and even if they are using this as Norc suggests) then Mary has to come and Mary has to go in fairly short order- which is what happened.
The effect of that on the other characters cannot be ignored- the fact they are male is because the shows two main characters are bloody well male.
This has noting to do with fridging, womens rights or any other nonsense- its simply adapting the character to the modern era then having the other characters react to her loss.
Claiming its anything else is one of the reasons people find it so hard to take feminists seriously any more.

'Making John a weak and nasty character is not in keeping with his previous incarnation'

What previous incarnation? You should read how he talks to his maid in the originals (they hint at that in last years Victorian xmas episode). Nor does it make him 'nasty' it makes his personality flawed- he either cannot settle with a woman for the reasons Norc eludes to, or he cant settle with a woman because he likes lots of women (the general book reason).

Previously in Sherlock we have seen John dumped by girlfriends because he got them mixed up, thinking one had a dog when it was an other one. Its always been there in his character since series 1. Its perfectly in keeping with how we have seen him handle personal relationships throughout- ie very badly.  }}}}

"Claiming its anything else is one of the reasons people find it so hard to take feminists seriously any more." Petty

yeah we all know how you hate 'The Feminists'

Watson was never much of an interesting character in the books. He started off as a character the readers could identify with, and gradually receded into being little more than a reporter.

I don't recall him being very interested in Mary. He married her for some reason, but we never saw the romance; and she was eventually discarded as being an impediment to the structure of Sherlock with Watson as observer. There is no more to the Watson and Mary characters than that in the books, and I think it's a stretch to read any more into them than that.

I think the banality of the Watson character leaves adapters rather free to do what they want with him. Unfortunately Nigel Bruce turned him into a bit of a twit. The Sherlock interpretation is the most memorable adaptation of Watson I can recall, but I'm admittedly no purveyor of Holmes adaptations.

I don't recall him being very interested in Mary. He married her for some reason, but we never saw the romance; and she was eventually discarded as being an impediment to the structure of Sherlock with Watson as observer.- Halfwise

{{Don't agree with that it doesn't fit the facts- if Doyle only dumped Mary because she was an impediment to the two man act he would not have kept marrying Watson off afterwards as he did. He was obviously making some point by doing so about Watson and his several marriages. }}}

Did he marry several times? they were such non-entities that I never noticed, always assumed the same woman, with the disappearance and reappearance due to changing time frames (as many stories go back in time with the device "looking through my notes, I recall....")

http://www.sherlockpeoria.net/Who_is_Sherlock/WatsonsWives.html

Absolutely rife with speculation. I don't find it the least bit convincing.

{{My personal count is 3 with a possible 4th -but I think Doyle just cocked up on the 4th- point is however you count them and there is enough room for ambiguity over the amount thanks to the non-chronological way the strories are told and because Doyle is inconsistent too- but there is on the page reference and evidence of at least 3 wives for definite- and on several occasions Holmes passes cryptic comments on Watsons love life habits. More than enough to extrapolate from that Watons had a bit of a roving eye and liked a good time. }}}

Mrs Figg wrote:  ok fair enough. Got to say the Bi thing went straight over my head.

yeah, it's a theory. for one, it is quite obvious that John chats Sherlock up ASiP, and Sherlock notices this. In contrast to the Molly scene (Molly is a John Mirror) he actually makes an effort to downplay it. Because he is gay and interested in John, although it is to early to actually say it so he does that whole married-to-his-work thing. Remember Sherlock thinks it's not nesessary to know that the earth goes around the sun, but the knowledge of what gay underpants is is.

another factor to the bi-thing, is the duality of John. He's a doctor, the hetero-side, and a soldier, gay. Remember Sherlock saying "all nice girls like a soldier" and john correcting him "sailor". this is a concious choice, storytelling-wise and should be noticed. When he introduces himself/we are introduced to him as thte doctor it is also in connotation to a hetero-life. dating women, mary being the doctor's wife. and don't forget the whole sholto-businnes, reffered to as an ex.

please watch this video (with an open mind). it focuses on the BBC version (solely i think) and although some points might be far fetched, a lot of it is quite good analyzis with an actual academic foundation (you can study like.. litterature, and find these idk tropes, tecniques). the video is just 27 minutes, i recommend it.

halfwise wrote:Watson was never much of an interesting character in the books.  He started off as a character the readers could identify with,  and gradually receded into being little more than a reporter.

I don't recall him being very interested in Mary.  He married her for some reason, but we never saw the romance; and she was eventually discarded as being an impediment to the structure of Sherlock with Watson as observer.  There is no more to the Watson and Mary characters than that in the books, and I think it's a stretch to read any more into them than that.

I think the banality of the Watson character leaves adapters rather free to do what they want with him.  Unfortunately Nigel Bruce turned him into a bit of a twit.  The Sherlock interpretation is the most memorable adaptation of Watson I can recall, but I'm admittedly no purveyor of Holmes adaptations.

two things. firstly, watson marries a lot and the women in his life have never had much focus in the original stories. maybe their just a beard?? to shout out "they're not gay!" when needed? edit: he also marries a lot and they never work out, should we take it as a hint? throughout the BBC sherlock, we've seen tons of hetero relationships, and most don't work out. whereas the "touching case" mentioned in The sign of Three is a gay romance. A woman was being blackmailed to marry some dick, if she didn't he would tell her posh family she was gay. it ended up with her telling it herself and finally be with the woman she loved. and sherlock reffered to it as touching. the high functioning sociopath. the machine. hah. so gay.

secondly. watson (and also doyle) is an uneven narrator, mixing up facts, and not always telling the whole truth. meaning we can expect the same for BBC sherlock, we cannot always trust the narrator (here mostly John, but in the latest episode one could argue it is sherlock).

{{Its also worth noting in the original Watson is a bit of an off the page party animal- he is a member of several Gentlemans clubs, he frequents drinking clubs, smoking clubs, music hall, opera and concerts- usually when Holmes and Watson attend such a thing it is Watson taking Sherlock to them.
He also on more than one occasion ends up near broke for no readily apparent reason- on at least two occasions including their original meeting Watson lodges with Holmes because he has blown his cash, despite having his own Doctors practice- thats a lot of money in those days to just blow to the point of having to share digs.
When you add to that multiple marriages, none of which seem to last very long and some of Holmes remarks in the book about Watson's lifestyle then a picture does begin to emerge of Watsons private life which shows a man who likes the good things in life, good company, but is unable to settle with one person or in one place- Sherlock being the one exception in his life and the only constant.}}

he also marries a lot and they never work out, should we take it as a hint?

By this logic Trump may be gay.

usually when Holmes and Watson attend such a thing it is Watson taking Sherlock to them.

It's usually Holmes that suggests the opera and classical concerts in the books. I don't recall any music halls. Don't recall them attending smoking or drinking clubs, but perhaps I'll have to read more carefully. I've always had the impression that Victorian drinking and smoking clubs were rather staid environments, but that's probably a purely media interpretation.

{{Holmes doesn't tend to frequent them- but Watson does he mentions several different clubs during the years they are together.

I knew I had read or listened to a Holmes story recently where Watson mentions money issues- The Cardboard Box from His Last Bow collection of stories (1917) - I listened to an audiobook version of it just a few days ago!

Watson narrating - 'a depleted bank account had caused me to postpone my holiday' there are dotted throughout the stories several other mentions of Watson getting himself in financial strife from minor to major. And typical of Doyle they are all as vague as this for why he keeps getting into money trouble (I suspect out of the narrative its merely an easy excuse for why Watson is there at all). But it is a definite and deliberate pattern with Watson within the narrative. }}}

The depleted bank account does seem to show up quite a bit. I always attributed this to lack of clients rather than a wastrel lifestyle. Now if he had mentioned depleting his bank account during his holiday I'd be more convinced.

{{There is only one instance I can recall where Watsons money issues are directly attributes to a down turn in trade. The rest of the time it just happens, often, with no explanation given.

But Watson of the books definitely enjoys a good night out, fine tobacco and drink (all referenced in the text) frequents several gentlemans clubs (also in the text) enjoys a night out (he buggers off for an evening out while Holmes is 'thinking' for hours on end on more than one occasion) and goes through at least 3 wives (also in the text) and often finds himself in financial difficulties (also text based) whilst Holmes occasionally makes cryptic comments about his life style (text based).

Taken all together I think it does paint a bit more a picture of a livelier Watson than adaptations of the past have tended to give us.

And if they want to go in the direction Norc is indicating the pattern of behaviour here could be pressed to that end without to much difficulty. }}}

{{And for those complaining of Mary's increased role- its worth noting that does have some book source- Mary was Watson's final wife in the books, not his first. And arguably the only one he seems to have shown actual love for.
Holmes called Watson marrying her this way- "The good Watson had deserted me for a wife, the only selfish action which I can recall in our association."

An odd statement as by this point Watson had already had 2 wives at least and had moved in and out of Baker Street several times, including running his own practice and living above the shop for years (where he lived with at least 1 of his wives).

What makes this one selfish is that Mary impressed Holmes and he admitted a desire that she should join them in the detective business.
But instead she marries Watson and they bugger of in love together, shortly afterwards Holmes retires from detecting and moves to Sussex to take up bee-keeping.

But the idea Holmes was impressed with Mary and wanted her to join him and Watson is in the text- it just doesn't actually happen.}}

{{Also of note is how we first meet Watson in the book- he says he gravitated towards London because its  'that great cess pool into which all the loungers and idliers of the Empire are irresistibly drained '- this is how Watson counts himself- a lounger and idilier. Whilst there he 'spent such money as I had more freely than I ought' eventually he comes to the conclusion that he will either have to leave London or 'make a complete alteration to my style of living' and when he meets his old medical friend who puts him in touch with Holmes, he is in the 'Criterion bar'. A fact which, in true Sherlock style, we can extrapolate quite a lot from.

Its still there- wiki describes it as 'an opulent restaurant complex facing Piccadilly Circus in the heart of London.'
It only opened in 1873 meaning Watson, despite not being able to afford it, was hanging out in one of the newest trendiest bar restaurants in all of London.  It also had its own theater (which could be surprisingly bawdy in the Victorian era!). I think its fair to say, even when he cant actually afford to, Watson likes to live the high life. And he remains bad with finances throughout until the end when he finally settles with Mary.
We don't know the exact reasons why every time he is skint again- but the initial set up for his character indicates its because he has a tendency to live outside of his means enjoying the good things in life- regardless of what those means are- more he has, more he seems to spend!

The Criterion circa 1873-




Also to the readers of the day the Criterion would be noted for something in particular- it was popular with women and had a very progressive approach to accommodating women (and their money!) and was later favoured by the suffragettes for meetings for that reason.
But in Watsons day and when he was there one of the things it was known for was beiing 'popular with ladies who had come to London's West End to shop.'- something London readers would be aware of and which might explain Watsons interest in that particular establishment- despite the costs. It would be typical of the way Doyle suggests stuff without ever coming out and clearly stating it.

In short what this all tells us is that Watson thought of himself as a lounger, lived outside his means staying in expensive hotels, and when we first meet him he is hanging about in an establishment known for being frequented by women. I think its clear what Doyle is suggesting here about Watson}}}}

All this is fanfiction Tumblry 21st century projection. If you want to understand Sherlock and Watson you have to understand the 19th century mindset. Sherlock is asexual and cerebral, like most famous detective stories such as Poirot they are single with one male friend like Captain Hastings who acts as 'us' the audience, less brilliant and a foil asking questions and taking notes in awe of the brilliant man. An outside relationship is unnecessary and boringly domestic. We read these stories TO get away from the boringly domestic, that's why partners are firmly in the background. secondly Sherlock and Poirot's partners in crime are men come back from war and violence while still retaining a certain innocence and bewilderment. Sherlock and Poirot are sometimes bemused by their friends bumbling but the bumbling serves as a sounding board. Both Hastings and Watson marry and occasionally go off to live their own lives, and are definitely hetero. Sheldon from Big Bang Theory is another asexual prototype, brilliant, a borderline autistic, but still has close male friends. Watson and Sherlock love each other platonically like friends do, as do Poirot and Hastings, its part of the Boys Own, Scout movement and boarding school generation of men where close and intense friendships developed. Some were gay some were not.
I think Doyle would have been shocked and repulsed by the way Watson treated Mary last episode. It is the utter opposite of the way he himself treated his wives. Doyle was married to a woman he loved but who was an invalid, he met and fell in love with another woman, but because he didn't want to hurt his wife and because he couldn't betray her, he had a platonic friendship with the other woman until his first wife died, and only then did he marry his female friend. Seeing Watson contemplate a betrayal  of his wife and child would have been unthinkable to Doyle.

{{Watson in the books makes comments about finding women appealing whilst married- granted its always possible Doyle forgot Watson was married- but even so still stands- he passes more than one comment on women's comliness whilst married.

And everything in my above few posts are taken exclusively from the books- not some tumby notion- its all book evidence with the exception of the comments about what the Criterion was best known for in Doyles time- which is historic fact-its no coincidence Doyle choose the Criterion for Watson to be in. Its not random.}}

OMG  just found brilliant Russian version of Sherlock Holmes.  


more recent version

What Figgy wrote is essentially what I was saying, but she said it much better. I think what Petty points out is essentially true for the first few stories, but Doyle backed further and further from developing Watson as a character: eventually he was just putting stories out to make a buck, and so stuck to boilerplate and for all except his main character.

I suspect that Doyle didn't give a rat's ass about Watson's private life; it was in the first story or two because he was still flexing his chops as a writer and real writing doesn't feature 2D characters. I'm thinking in later stories he brought wives in and out just according to whim of whether he felt like writing Watson with or without Holmes; picking up the story from the beginning or being called in once it was already in motion.