Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]

almost there but its not totally there. and I can say this because I know Petty is busy getting blotto in some ditch somewhere up in Scotshobbitstan. He really wont notice me dissing that bit of the edit, cos I TOLD him it doesnt pan out. But after 10 Buckies he wont care. On the other hand its me who has to scrape the pavement pizzas out of his barrel.   

I may well be in a ditch and blotto (and yes you will have to bring a mop and bucket, and possibly a shovel) but I still disagree.

I showed the film last night to someone who has never read TH book or seen the films and one of the things I asked them when it was over was why did they think Smaug had gone off at the end to destroy Lake Town- and their reply was, 'because Bilbo let slip about Laketown boasting about being a barrel rider and talking about the Black Arrow and Smaug wants to punish them for daring to help him.'

So I say it works just fine.   

yeaaaah ok   

Ah, another argument for the new year.   

Still, I'm guessing we wouldn't have it any other way around here.   

So, spent two days downloading from the skydrive over the slow connection at my mums, but it have now watched the newer auj cut and dos so in time honoured tradition I will spew forth all the random thoughts that are running around my head.

First a thought and a fear,

It was impressive in the Auj edit how well the story starts, the whole first section seemed to run really smoothly and showed some reference to the book and an attempt to get things done well. My fear is, even with the sterling work done on Dos there is just too little left. Watching them in order really hammered home how little time or thought has been given to this section of the story from the book. It shows clearly how late the transition to three films was. This was clearly written as a first act for the second movie, truncated to give enough time for the battle of the five armies and in that context I could see it working, unfortunately the cumulative effect is to leave everything feeling rushed. Any final judgement on this will have to wait until after the ee for film three I think, but I worry it will be impossible to reconstruct a satisfying purist edit in the same way as you have achieved for LOTR.

I have nothing to say about the first sequence at all, even if the hurry of the dwarves after the trollshaws is a little odd it still works.

I liked the cut of the white council it seemed more like a meeting of friends and showed that Gandalf had stayed without all the other guff

The goblins and Moria flashback works better, but seemed a little long even in its truncated form, I did wonder if it is possible to trim a little more and still make it make sense - kings death, prince picks up the reins - I except it probably isn't without losing the flow of the VoiceOver and soundtrack issues.

I was surprised you had left the Bilbo running away scene in, but actually it paid off really well after the excursion to goblin town and served the purpose of the growing respect of Thorin without the violence.

Goblin town seems to have undergone a further cut since I last saw it and I really liked it, by only showing as little as necessary of the dwarves the emphasis is very clearly on Biblo and his story.

It is here out if the mountains that the rush and lack of focus on the dwarves and Bilbos journey begins to tell. The five fir trees scene cut works well to remove orcs and hit the images that I was looking for, but is too short and lacking any real dialogue, so isn't all that involving to watch, it is here the disconnect starts.
Short fir trees is followed by short eagles to short chase to short beorn to short Mirkwood to short elven halls to short river section to short lake town. Nothing you can do about it and some of this may be improved with ee scenes, but I do wonder if it may be necessary to cut some bits away from the book to leave a better flow.

For example it struck me that if you took firtrees and eagles out the chase off the mountain and into Beorns with the lookout Bilbo scene may be a good link. I know you are already thinking of possibly two films as a final cut and this is one option. Not ideal I know, but you could still imagine they had happened off screen.

As another aside there is a shot if the thrush flying up to the door and knocking that would be displaced in a single film, which may be usable once the company get to the doorstep.

I definitely think running Auj into Dos makes sense as no matter how you look at it, without the prancing pony bit the beginning of Dos is not great.

Anyway, enough whinging about things you can't control.  

Is there anymore of the conversations at the gate to the wood that can be salvaged? I only ask as it works, but seems a little lacking in conversation at a parting of the ways.

The trek through Mirkwood works nicely even though you have cut some of the trippy stuff. Like the spider cut in terms of changing the motivation, I hadn't noticed the understanding spider speech without the ring bit until it was mentioned here, but it did stick out like a sore thumb this time. I was surprised you had cut Tauriel completely, as her presence simply as an elf wouldn't matter, but I realised that actually most of what she talks about is spider fights and other rubbish and I could see why she wouldn't make it even in the background.

The time with the elves works well, it wasn't until you cut away that I realised actually you had cut a lot from it and actually this is one lace where the compressed time works, dwarves captured, Thorin turns down Thranduil and Bilbo helps them escape, I might be tempted to cut the barrel escape a little to fit this as it is too short for and event in its own right, but too long simply as the end of this sequence.

Again, the shortened lake town sequence works better in its own right, I did wonder if you might want to keep a shot of the dwarves being covered on fish, the gateway and so on, just to show how they got in as it seemed a little arbitrary. Bard seemed clear and his reaction makes sense without over playing it.

It's a shame the journey to the mountain is so rushed and that there is little to reasonably be done with the doorstep scene, the cut to Balin and Bilbo in the mountain is nice and I think the Smaug, Bilbo scene works, although a few rough edges could do with smoothing. I got the motivation clearly, although it still takes a little time from barrel rider to flying off.

The end felt a little clunky, but as with Auj It may be possible to cut a lot of this and head straight on once we have taba.

Really impressive job, I know there is little worth doing at this point until you have the rest of the footage, but thought I would share my thoughts. Thanks for sharing once again, I always enjoy you edits.

It is clear Auj is the superior of the two in terms of Hobbit story. The biggest problem with what has been done in Dos is the dwarves just seem daft, with or without a burglar you can not imagine anyone, let alone Gandalf supporting their quest.

Eek, that's a bit long.......

As always Kafria, thankyou for watching and thanks for commenting.

"I worry it will be impossible to reconstruct a satisfying purist edit in the same way as you have achieved for LOTR."

It wont be is the short answer, the longer answer is hat I hope to get something I can at least watch without wishing death on everyone involve.

I will take a look at the Moria scene and see if it can be trimmed- I find it incredible PJ thought it was a good idea to start the film with exposition heavy material (which is necessary) and then stop the story immediately it gets going to insert his made up version of more exposition.

The shortness of the scenes from the start of DOS is a huge problem. Basically if its in the book in DOS PJ has made it as brief as humanely possible in order to make room for all his own additions. I am greatly hoping there is some EE material concerning particular the Beorn section and Mirkwood sections (they filmed sleeping Bombur and if you look very carefully during the Mirkwood sequences you can see the are carrying a stretcher in some shots- so removing it seems a very late decision as they have not reshot anything but cut around it).

I may be able to use some of the ending from AUJ elsewhere, but I dont want to tgive the viewer any definite knowledge Smaug is still there until Bilbo goes in.

Not sure this is any more to salvage at Gandalfs parting at the gates of Mirkwood, I got as much as I could without bringing vodophone (sorry Galadriel) into it.

I hadnt planned ahead to cut Tauriel entirely and thought she would probably make a few appearances- its just it turned out she doesn't actually do anything of relevance at all and so more kind of fell out of the cut than was deliberately forced out by me pddly enough.

"I did wonder if you might want to keep a shot of the dwarves being covered on fish, the gateway and so on, just to show how they got in as it seemed a little arbitrary."

I took that out as them needing sneaked in and the whole way PJ sets up Laketown is gone too so it doesnt make a lot of sense- in my cut they go tot Laketown, go to Bards, get warmed up, get war clothes, have a munch, a short cha and then head straight to the Master to declare who they are and get his approval.
Given that it would be a bit weird that they sneak in, if they intend to go see the Master anyway, (as opposed to being arrested and taken to him)- what I will probably do is use some of the so far unused external shots of Laketown from DOS and find places to use them in the sequences to make jumps between scenes less obvious.

"a few rough edges could do with smoothing"

Oh very much so, this is still only at the blocking in stage. I only did very rudimentary and crude fades between cuts, so is not been smoothed at all. As I have to do it all again probably when I get an HD version to work with I just couldn't be arsed doing all the finicky stuff to smooth transitions and cuts, not for this quality version anyway.
This is very much a work in progress which is why folks comments are so useful and welcome right now.

And thanks again Kafria for taking the time to watch and add your thoughts.




"I think the line "that...is a dragon" should be moved to after Smaug blows fire. Him just getting up is not dramatic enough."- Halfwise

This is more a matter of need- that particular scene is where it is to mask a big jump in where Bilbo is between two cuts.
And given Smaug is about the size of a jumbo jet it seemed not unreasonable that just him getting up and stomping about would make the ground shake- but mainly is to cover the fact that without there Bilbo goes from in the open in front of Smaug to elsewhere.
And I cant put it to just after he blows fire because theres already a cutaway scene there- Balins- 'his name is Bilbo' bit with Thorin (and it would still leave the problem of the cut to ask earlier).

I'm appreciating reading everybody's comments too. I watched the first rough edit with the bad audio a couple days ago. What struck me is very much like what Kafia said, I think. DoS, once edited, is mostly just a rushed journey from place to place. Most of the actual story (both JRRT's and Pj's) has been left on the cutting room floor. It was noticeably better in that without all the orc slaughtering, Bilbo was able to rise above the surface in a few scenes (spiders, elf escape, and dragon). But the only story that's left for most of it is, "They went here, then they went there, then they got in barrels and went farther, then they got new clothes and walked some more." It really suffers for lack of meaningful dialog.

In the bad audio edit, there are a couple seconds of Tauriel and Leggy following the barrels. I was wondering when I saw that if you were going to have elves trying to capture the escaped prisoners, rather than trying to save them from orcs. If that were possible, it would make sense within the story arc and give a reason for a boatman to smuggle them in fish. I know it would be a miracle if you could explain that the elves were chasing the dwarves with the bits PJ has left you, but if it were possible it would really add to the story.

That's just a few of my quick thoughts, based on a quick watch on a borrowed tablet thingy with bad sound. I guess I'm going to have to put the flashdrive back in the mailbox again soon....

I'm going to have to put the flashdrive back in the mailbox again soon.... - David

Well on the bright side you'd not only get AUJ and DOS but also Day of the Doctor, Time of the Doctor, the Adventures in Space and Time docudrama, and the 7 minute special Night of the Doctor- so worth the effort.  


I shall take a look at the barrel escape to see if I can imply the elves are following them but without the nonsense. It might be an option Dave.

did you cut the bit where Bilbo kills the creature? I hate that scene with a passion. Its unfortunate its one of the very very few Bilbo scenes but it makes him look hateful and not a sympathetic character.

Oh yes it definitely gone Figg- as are all the Ring parts that are not in the book.
In my cut its as it is in the book, a useful tool for Bilbo.

I actually think it being seemingly innocent in TH hobbit is more tense than clumsily showing it with power corrupting him.

If youve seen the LotR's films then the fact Bilbo doesnt have a clue to any evil to it makes every time he uses it a 'dont use it you dont know what it really does!' moment for the viewer- and if you havent seen the LotR's films then it doesnt ruin the reveal in FotR that its more than a useful trinket.

good   

I didn't mind the kill-the-spider-nymph episode so much, it really is an ugly evil looking thing that's almost as big as Bilbo. In fact the whole spider sequence was pretty good if you forget the whole stones and songs part of the book...anything charming is long gone anyway.

I thought it was cute.   

My problem with Mirkwood n the film is that its not enchanting. No enchanted stream. No dancing partying elves with their lights that all goes instantly dark as soon as you step into the glade, then reappears a distance away- that would have made a much better sequence than the bad trip idea.
Film Mirkwood is all dark, horrible and miserable and deadly throughout.
As you point out Halfy any charm the story had has been drained entirely out of it. There is no joy in the film at all, anywhere, no quiet moments, no simple pleasures.

And as my edit shows and Dave highlighted, once you edit all the ludicrous inserted and contrived fight sequences back out, there are no real character moments or development in the film, just the rudimentary bones of they go here, then here next.
Any character work or quiet moments come only for PJ;s invented characters and story lines. None of the books main characters get any at all.

I thought the trippy bit was so unlike anything Tolkien it stuck out glaringly. The effects were plain bizarre but not in a good way. Mirkwood wasnt trippy, it was Faerie but PJ didnt have the skill or the inclination to show it. I bet GDT is pissed off he didnt get to showcase his ideas.

I think GDT can do Faerie & sinister simultaneously, & probably would have done a better job than Pejeers ! GDTs Labyrinth ?

Mirkwood wasnt trippy, it was Faerie- Mrs Figg

For once, I couldnt agree with you more.  
PJ and the Coven didnt just miss the boat on this one he couldnt even find the water.   

only once?   

Well this year anyway.  

Peej got absolutely nothing right. Not one goddamned thing.

So finally got through your Purist edits, Petty. (Little while ago now really.) And I found them really enjoyable. Actually, I don't think I've gotten through RotK with that little cringing before.  

It's been a while since I've been through Jacksons versions so not sure i can give you a blow for blow account, but it certainly removed a lot of the things I felt really made someone well aquainted with the books struggle with the movies.

Of course there are a lot of stuff that harmonises badly witht the books that can't be fixed, but I really feel you have done a stellar job recutting them. I particularily like you moving the story back to follow the structure of Tolkiens 6 books.

So it's all very appreciated.   

I could probably write something more if you're interested, but not really sure where to start.

Also getting ready to get into the Hobbit edits now, how are they coming along?

TH edits are already up on the drive Blue- but they are a work in progress and will remain so until I have all 3 special editions.

Thanks for your thoughts on the edits, glad you enjoyed them and any further thoughts you might want to share will always be appreciated.

For those interested and with access to the first Skydrive I am uploading the LotR's radio play to it so check in to see whats there (I, Davros from Big Finish is also in the same Documents folder and is a must listen for Who fans   )

Might have a look at that, Petty. The radio play is LotRs`by the BBC?

As for your edits, I think you all were discussing the darkening effect you added. I find it worked quite well and were quite atmospheric. Though it did become a bit overpowering at times. And was thinking maybe I would have gone along and higlighted important areas a bit. Like faces and so on. Though I neither expect you to have the equipment or the time to really do that properly.

How did you think it turned out?

I like the darkening effect- its too dark for some, but I think some of that comes down to peoples tv and monitors being different and set differently.
I particularly think the effect of the red filter slowly building up as they get closer, combined with it creeping over Minas Tirith helps subconsciously to give a tangible visual sense of Saurons will given the absence onscreen of a bad guy in LotR's (especially in my edit which has Saruman back in his book role not promoted to temporary main villian).
So for me it works- but then I would say that!

And yeah the radio plays are the BBC version.