Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]

Bungo I misunderstood your point 2 above- having reread your point I think that would work.

Yeah, I should have been more clear on point two. Cutting right after Gandalf's line before Lindir says that Elrond is away. I'm not sure how this would look in a final edit though, may be too jarring? Just a suggestion.  

Suggestions are always welcome Bungo. Worse that happens is I waste half an hour seeing if it will work- worth the effort for the times when it does, and you never know till you try, as the stripper said to the Bishop.

I still think the Erebor scenes are best in the Thorin on Cliff moment.

I agree it would be good there to replace the whole Azog story with Smaugs at that point- but without reshooting it its impossible to do just by editing- I have no voice over telling the story that would make any sense in the context of that scene, there is no lead into the scene either- the entire set up about orcs would make no sense.

you have to leave orcs out totally. cut Thorin getting miffed about Kili, what does the dialogue say in the Erebor prologue? is it possible old Bilbo could speak without it looking ridiculous? is there any youtube clips that dont involve Rick Astley?

is it possible old Bilbo could speak without it looking ridiculous?- Mrs Figg

I cant imagine how.

is there any youtube clips that dont involve Rick Astley?- Mrs Figg

Probably not! But even if there were Id run into problems of combining different encoders, and picture quality issues and apsect ratios and lots of other technical gubbins that makes the 'just stick this bit in here' argument sound easy when its not in practice, sadly.

I watched the AUJ edit again last night, focusing on storytelling. I do think there's something to be gained by playing more with the colors at the beginning (especially when dwarves aren't present), at Rivendell, during Riddles, and at the end. What you've done so far with the use of lighting and sound to tell the story when you don't have exactly the right words and images works amazingly well, and I think you can get more out of it.

Bungo's suggestion about removing Elrond's entrance got me thinking. It really would be better if the elves weren't coming back from hunting orcs, if possible. The goblin/orc references should be delayed as much as possible until the cave scene, if the Hobbit is being seen as a story in its own right, rather than a prequel to LotR. I really wish the elves were merrier, teasing and singing. A part of the story is lost without that. Anything you can do to downplay the militarism and bring in a more "elven" tone with colour and sound would be a big improvement.

When I watched it the first time, the darkness of the underground stuff seemed perfect. But I was watching with the lights very low. Last night I had more lights on and I had the same problem following the facial expressions in Riddles that Bungo mentioned. It's something you should definitely look at if you want the edit to be watched in anything but a dark room with a good screen.

I still love the eagle scene, and the mountain-thrush-gold-dragon sequence. The storytelling transitions from narrative to visual at that point. If gradually adjusting the color is reasonably easy, I'd suggest heightening the dawn effect and bringing back brighter colors at that point to highlight the shift in storytelling. Just to see what it looks like...

And I still hate that the dwarves lay down their weapons once Bilbo is captured. What happens if you just cut that part and go straight to dwarves in sacks. Could it really be any worse?

And more thoughts on Gandalf and WC. There is still a discontinuity as to why the company is leaving Gandalf, or how Gandalf got to the Goblin Cave. I'm curious how obvious Gandalf's absence is when WC is removed completely. Would it be theoretically possible, for instance, to insert a couple seconds of Gandalf kindling his staff in Moria just as the company enters the cave, and perhaps a closeup of him looking pensive earlier, to show that he's deep in thought as an explanation for why Thorin is leading? (I admit, Gandalf lighting his staff in the cave is an iconic image from the book for me. I'd love to see it come back in some form.)

Also, I understand taking out Gollum's orc-feast (though it is in the book) but I wish the boat could have made the cut. It's part of his character.

On the colouring issue I will play abut with it a lot more when I have the extended.
I did very little beyond the necessary basics (such as darkening the goblin section) in this edit.

"I was watching with the lights very low. Last night I had more lights on and I had the same problem following the facial expressions in Riddles that Bungo mentioned. It's something you should definitely look at"

This is a trickier issue than might first seem.
To begin with there is what I edit with my own display settings, then there is the fact everyone who watches it may will have a different display set up to me, and thats before you get into just the vast amount of variations in display between different devices and products.
Most modern TV's have quick presets for different viewing conditions, on my own tv if I watch Riddles in the Dark in bright daylight on Movie setting it would mainly be black, but its fine on the dynamic setting for strong ambient lighting.
In short its easier for the viewer to adjust their display to suit them than it is for me to second guess all the possible means people could be viewing it.

"What happens if you just cut that part and go straight to dwarves in sacks. Could it really be any worse?"

It would not make sense- the scene immediately preceding them throwing down their weapons is a troll espying Bilbo freeing the horses. If I cut it would go from there to them all immediately in sacks with no explanation of how we got from one to the other.
Look on the bright side, at least the troll fight is less than half as long.

"to insert a couple seconds of Gandalf kindling his staff in Moria "

Not sure about that- put right next to each other I think the differences in filming technique between the two might be glaring. But I will give it some thought.

"I understand taking out Gollum's orc-feast (though it is in the book) but I wish the boat could have made the cut."

The book says he didn't immediately attack and eat Bilbo because he had recently eaten a goblin, it doesn't show him doing it, and it certainly doesn't show Bilbo witnessing it and the Ring bouncing off.  (and it doesn't make sense as an explanation in PJ's anymore because he doesn't eat it, he doesn't get the chance- so really he should have eaten Bilbo, as given th eoption Hobbit has too look more appetising than orc))
There is only one shot of the boat, when Smeagol approaches after killing the goblin on his island, and its still there, I didn't cut it.

this is very good, maybe you could do a version? only showing more Dale/Erebor and Smaug.

They demonstrate well with that vid why I dumped the idea. Its almost exactly as my own cut was.
In order for the visual imagery to match the lyrics you lose Bilbo, and as the whole point narratively of that scene is for Bilbo to hear and be moved by the scene he kind of has to be in the scene.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:On the colouring issue I will play abut with it a lot more when I have the extended.
I did very little beyond the necessary basics (such as darkening the goblin section) in this edit.

Very interesting! I only watched TH once in the theater in 3D, then your early rough edits of bootlegs on a laptop, so I have only a distant memory to go on, but the color palate is quite different than I remembered. I wonder if it's my memory or if they changed it when they set it up for DVD.

"What happens if you just cut that part and go straight to dwarves in sacks. Could it really be any worse?"

It would not make sense- the scene immediately preceding them throwing down their weapons is a troll espying Bilbo freeing the horses. If I cut it would go from there to them all immediately in sacks with no explanation of how we got from one to the other.
Look on the bright side, at least the troll fight is less than half as long.

I take your point, but you still didn't answer my question. Could it really be any worse?  

"to insert a couple seconds of Gandalf kindling his staff in Moria "

Not sure about that- put right next to each other I think the differences in filming technique between the two might be glaring. But I will give it some thought.

I really only posed it as a theoretical thought problem. Either way I'd be interested in hearing the technical difficulties. Still, wouldn't it be cool if it were theoretically possible to put Gandalf back were he belongs? It's at least worth looking at.

There is only one shot of the boat, when Smeagol approaches after killing the goblin on his island, and its still there, I didn't cut it.

I'll have to watch closer next time then. Probably missed it in the dark. Not now tho. Dr Who to watch! 

Could it really be any worse? - David

Not worse, it just lacks any coherent narrative- whereas with it left in there is a coherent narrative, its just that the narrative is a complete load of piss.  

"It's at least worth looking at."

It is, I'm now also racking my brains if there is a shot or two of Gandalf on the Caradhras path I could nick (easy enough to make the change to a night scene) if I can get it to work at all.
The immediate problem assuming I can get the shots, is the shot of the dwarves leaving Rivendell, where Gandy is conspicuous by his absence.

"Dr Who to watch!"

Well don't stand here gabbling man!

I've thought of a new challengeb ut I'm going to sleep on it and see if it still seems like an interesting idea in the morning.

 

My half-formed thought last night had to do with the troll scene and all it's stupidity: ponies that calmly let themselves be carried off and eaten, dwarves that charge into battle without a plan or a clue, and then lay down their weapons and allow themselves to be eaten.

Among other things, it really bothers me that in the dark, the noise, the chaos and the general fog of battle, it seems that all the trolls have to do is say a word, the whole battle stops and the dwarves fall into line to parley. If you've ever tried to deal with a crisis at night, it just doesn't work like that, even when you've drilled for it!  

So my thought was this: could you take all the gratuitous combat footage and edit it together into a "Saving Private Ryan" fog-of-war montage in which the trolls appear to be winning? It might be both easier and better not even to worry about the sound while editing, just edit it to show the darkness and confusion (or slow motion if you like), then score it to imply the adrenaline haze of combat.  The cut to dwarves-in-sacks would make so much more sense than it does now. (How for f*** sake does PJ think they got into the sacks? Did the trolls stand them all in line, then pick them each up docilely one by one and stuff them in, or did they pass out sacks to everybody and have them  all climb into them at once?  )

My big reservation is that of course I'd much rather there were no battle at all, but I'd so much rather have a lost battle than an impossible surrender....

yes me too, I hate that stupid battle with the Trolls, they are supposed to be made from stone so the Dwarves yelling and swinging with their swords makes no sense, and I am sure PJ had the Dwarves stabbing the Trolls feet at one point, (they simply wouldnt have felt the swords), indeed fighting with Trolls would have been impossible, thats what makes the book so scary, because without Gandalf they would have been eaten. Thorin and co fighting made me turn off, from that moment onwards the rot set in.

Im not sure editing can do all you would wish David- although that wont stop me from having a go at it.  

If only we'd had a storm, the loss of the baggage, and the dwarves being captured. I dont know whats more depressing, that PJ choose to go for a fight, or the fact he would turn it into a fight being so dully predictable we were saying that was what he would do on here as soon as the film was announced (same goes with the barrel escape   ).

That's why I called it a challenge Petty. I don't expect miracles, just hoping for a little more plausible continuity in the narrative. As I've said before, I believe in setting my bars low (especially when PJ is in someway involved.)

Pettytyrant101 wrote:If only we'd had a storm, the loss of the baggage, and the dwarves being captured. I dont know whats more depressing, that PJ choose to go for a fight, or the fact he would turn it into a fight being so dully predictable we were saying that was what he would do on here as soon as the film was announced (same goes with the barrel escape Mad ).

I remember we called it way back in the golden days of Bree.

  poor old Bree all windy and full of dust bunnies

Not much left to be said there, unfortunately.

Leafed through this thread yesterday and was surprised to see that half the videos were still up.

Is there any way to see the whole thing though? It would be a most interesting thing to watch.

Full HD versions are on my skydrive Bluebottle- just pm me your email and I can set you up with access to download them.

Ringdrotten!!! Need your help, um again....Ive done it again, forgotten what the hell the second skydrive email is!! Its something like pettyedits I think, but my buckied memory and two HD failures seem to have put payed to me remembering- can you help so I can send Bluebottle the link to it?