Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:41 pm
Well give it a go Figg- you shouldnt need a password
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Bluebottle Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:44 pm
I did get around to watching some more Petty.
I finished book 3. I was going to have a go at book 4 yesterday, but it had to take a backseat to my spamathon to reach a 1000 posts.
http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t845p30-countdown-to-bungo-s-1000th-post
(Thousandth post on the next page.)
I'm really enjoying it. Though I am rediscovering that there were several things I didn't really like the look of from a design point of view towards the end of the films.
I'm not going to go far in second guessing you on the story, you've obviously spent a lot of time and thought on it. The only thing I can think about is that you loose some of the desperation, last stance, aspect of the Helms Deep battle by shortening it. But it's probably hard to cut it another way without keeping the pointless elves in.
The only other real creative criticism points I have are technical.
The only real issue I had is that there's quite some fluctuation in sound levels from scene to scene. I don't know if it could be fixed by having it mastered. But it's probably not easy when you don't have the equipment or technology, I'm sure.
Also, some of the scene cuts turn out a bit abrupt. Maybe it would be better to fade to black keeping the background music going at times and then fade into the next scene? Don't know if that is at all possible, just an idea.
Not that I'm criticising you for that in any way. What you have managed to do is really impressive.
I finished book 3. I was going to have a go at book 4 yesterday, but it had to take a backseat to my spamathon to reach a 1000 posts.
http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t845p30-countdown-to-bungo-s-1000th-post
(Thousandth post on the next page.)
I'm really enjoying it. Though I am rediscovering that there were several things I didn't really like the look of from a design point of view towards the end of the films.
I'm not going to go far in second guessing you on the story, you've obviously spent a lot of time and thought on it. The only thing I can think about is that you loose some of the desperation, last stance, aspect of the Helms Deep battle by shortening it. But it's probably hard to cut it another way without keeping the pointless elves in.
The only other real creative criticism points I have are technical.
The only real issue I had is that there's quite some fluctuation in sound levels from scene to scene. I don't know if it could be fixed by having it mastered. But it's probably not easy when you don't have the equipment or technology, I'm sure.
Also, some of the scene cuts turn out a bit abrupt. Maybe it would be better to fade to black keeping the background music going at times and then fade into the next scene? Don't know if that is at all possible, just an idea.
Not that I'm criticising you for that in any way. What you have managed to do is really impressive.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Bluebottle Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:45 pm
Ooh, a DOS edit.
I think I'll leave it til I've seen the film though.
I think I'll leave it til I've seen the film though.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Bluebottle Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:53 pm
Bluebottle wrote:I did get around to watching some more Petty.
I finished book 3. I was going to have a go at book 4 yesterday, but it had to take a backseat to my spamathon to reach a 1000 posts.
http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t845p30-countdown-to-bungo-s-1000th-post
(Thousandth post on the next page.)
I'm really enjoying it. Though I am rediscovering that there were several things I didn't really like the look of from a design point of view towards the end of the films.
I'm not going to go far in second guessing you on the story, you've obviously spent a lot of time and thought on it. The only thing I can think about is that you loose some of the desperation, last stance, aspect of the Helms Deep battle by shortening it. But it's probably hard to cut it another way without keeping the pointless elves in.
The only other real creative criticism points I have are technical.
The only real issue I had is that there's quite some fluctuation in sound levels from scene to scene. I don't know if it could be fixed by having it mastered. But it's probably not easy when you don't have the equipment or technology, I'm sure.
Also, some of the scene cuts turn out a bit abrupt. Maybe it would be better to fade to black keeping the background music going at times and then fade into the next scene? Don't know if that is at all possible, just an idea.
Not that I'm criticising you for that in any way. What you have managed to do is really impressive.
That wasn't meant to come across critical in any way. I find your versions far preferable to Jacksons, which I struggle to get through at times.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:03 pm
Dont worry on the critical points Blue, they are welcome.
There are several cuts that are too abrupt, it used to be a lot worse, slowly but surely I have solved a problem at a time, but theres still plenty to go.
There is an inherent problem however in cutting material that has already been cut and edited. Where possible I try to 'gloss over these' by the sort of means you describe, there are many fades out and cross fades that have been added by me, but sadly it not always possible (cross fading is a good example of the problems if you are interested in technical details- if I have the start of a scene that this is say, Aragorns face, but its a brief shot before cutting to a wide of him- and I want to put before it another scene and crossfade from it to the Aragorns face video- when you cross fade the video it uses from the second clip can only be from the start of it- if the clip is the very start then Aragorns face will crossfade in, but it will disappear almost immediately because there isnt enough time on the face giving a weir abrupt transition.
Worse if the clip is edited down from a longer one the crossfade will use material from before the Aragorn shot to make the the length of the crossfade up, so you get in the middle of it a flash of the end of a frame or two from a scene that shouldn't be there- obviously this problem only arises when working from already edited footage. But it gives you an idea of just one of the hassles and crabbit inducing things about trying to make these!)
Im glad you are enjoying them overall. And all further comments on anything you notice or that strikes as you watch are very welcome.
ps not sure what the sound problem is- in theory as they are edited together in the same editor from the same source files there shouldn't really be any differences in level, as it was not something I altered.
There are several cuts that are too abrupt, it used to be a lot worse, slowly but surely I have solved a problem at a time, but theres still plenty to go.
There is an inherent problem however in cutting material that has already been cut and edited. Where possible I try to 'gloss over these' by the sort of means you describe, there are many fades out and cross fades that have been added by me, but sadly it not always possible (cross fading is a good example of the problems if you are interested in technical details- if I have the start of a scene that this is say, Aragorns face, but its a brief shot before cutting to a wide of him- and I want to put before it another scene and crossfade from it to the Aragorns face video- when you cross fade the video it uses from the second clip can only be from the start of it- if the clip is the very start then Aragorns face will crossfade in, but it will disappear almost immediately because there isnt enough time on the face giving a weir abrupt transition.
Worse if the clip is edited down from a longer one the crossfade will use material from before the Aragorn shot to make the the length of the crossfade up, so you get in the middle of it a flash of the end of a frame or two from a scene that shouldn't be there- obviously this problem only arises when working from already edited footage. But it gives you an idea of just one of the hassles and crabbit inducing things about trying to make these!)
Im glad you are enjoying them overall. And all further comments on anything you notice or that strikes as you watch are very welcome.
ps not sure what the sound problem is- in theory as they are edited together in the same editor from the same source files there shouldn't really be any differences in level, as it was not something I altered.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Bluebottle Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:17 pm
Yeah, I get that it's difficult.
The one which stood out most to me was the Gandalf "17 years later" one. I don't know if you think putting a second or two of black screen in between might help. Anyway, I can hear ypu've put a lot of work into it, and there's only so much you can do. I get that.
I am enjoying watching them, but it is a bit strange rediscovering how many problems I had with RotK, which is coming up next, but also how much I enjoyed Fellowship. They just seemed to get the feel right at the begginging in my opninon.
The sound thing sounds a bit strange, because I'm actually sitting adjusting the sound at times while watching. I'm sure it has something to do with the original mastering. That they slowly turn the sound up during the movie or that they made sure that the louder scenes didn't sound abrupt in their cut.
Anyway, good job Petty. I'll let you know if I have anything else to contribute.
Oh, and I'm liking the darkening of the scenes. Though it does make the faces and details a bit dark at times. As for Lothlorien, I can't contribute that much. It was ... blue(?) in the original. It didn't come across as jarring to me in any way though.
The one which stood out most to me was the Gandalf "17 years later" one. I don't know if you think putting a second or two of black screen in between might help. Anyway, I can hear ypu've put a lot of work into it, and there's only so much you can do. I get that.
I am enjoying watching them, but it is a bit strange rediscovering how many problems I had with RotK, which is coming up next, but also how much I enjoyed Fellowship. They just seemed to get the feel right at the begginging in my opninon.
The sound thing sounds a bit strange, because I'm actually sitting adjusting the sound at times while watching. I'm sure it has something to do with the original mastering. That they slowly turn the sound up during the movie or that they made sure that the louder scenes didn't sound abrupt in their cut.
Anyway, good job Petty. I'll let you know if I have anything else to contribute.
Oh, and I'm liking the darkening of the scenes. Though it does make the faces and details a bit dark at times. As for Lothlorien, I can't contribute that much. It was ... blue(?) in the original. It didn't come across as jarring to me in any way though.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:26 pm
Yeah was all starlight and blue- I hated it on two counts- firstly that it reminded me too much of the ewok village in RotJ and secondly Sam specifically says of Lothlorien that he thought elves were all for star and moon light but Lothlorien is all all sun and green and its even more elvish, so I felt I had to change it.
As I had opted for using a red filter that increases in strength as Frodo and Sam get closer to Mordor to represent the will of Sauron, and I use a brightening effect whenever Gandalf does his white light and with phial of Galadriel that 'breaks' the red filter, I thought it seemed fitting to make Lothlorien green and for that to represent the land under the power of Galadriel.
Thats the logic behind it at any rate.
As I had opted for using a red filter that increases in strength as Frodo and Sam get closer to Mordor to represent the will of Sauron, and I use a brightening effect whenever Gandalf does his white light and with phial of Galadriel that 'breaks' the red filter, I thought it seemed fitting to make Lothlorien green and for that to represent the land under the power of Galadriel.
Thats the logic behind it at any rate.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Bluebottle Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:37 pm
Yeah, I saw you had a rather long discussion on that already. 
The green light didn't look out of place or jarring to me. But it's at a point were I'm so disassosciated with the movies that I don't have a strong opinion.
The green light didn't look out of place or jarring to me. But it's at a point were I'm so disassosciated with the movies that I don't have a strong opinion.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Ringdrotten Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:25 pm
First: To everyone who might be interested in this edit – watch Jackson’s cut first. What Petty has done here is a major improvement, but there's no way working around all of Jackson's changes to the story, so watch the original first and blame the right person before you move on to Petty's cut.
My thoughts on the edit in the spoiler!
My thoughts on the edit in the spoiler!
- DOS edit:
I much prefer your opening - No prologue, no Azog, no dwarves battering the door before they realise it can be opened very easily, no "Last Bear Standing" story by Beorn. Beorn still appears shitty as ever, but they've made it nearly impossible to remove him from the film completely, so I can't ask you to do more or less than you've already done.
Mirkwood - In your final edit, is it possible to make Mirkwood look darker, like you made Mordor red and Lothlorien green? It’s way too bright. This is a rough cut so I understand it if you didn’t bother doing it with this edit. Mirkwood is a lot better without the trippy shit, and Bilbo’s naming of Sting works a lot better when this is his first kill. It still pains me to hear him name the sword after he’s taken off the ring and (in the film) shouldn’t be able to understand what the spiders say, but what can you do. At least he names it, and it's something from the book.
The capture of the dwarves is less dramatic and all the better for it. The introduction of Legolas is much better as well, as it doesn’t scream «LOOK HERE, IT’S LEGOLAS FROM LOTR!», but rather makes him look like any other captain. When they're entering the elves' stronghold/keep/whatever: Is it possible to move the shot of Bilbo running towards the gate to right before the gate closes? That way it’ll actually look like he may have made it inside. The Thranduil sequence works much better now, no silly scar and dragonfire survivor crap.
Barrel ride – no trace of elves or orcs that I could see, nicely done
Bard – can you cut from him standing above them to Balin speaking to him? This way you would lose his superhuman archery skills, which are just silly.
Laketown – much better! It will be chopped up, especially the part where they stand before the Master for the first time, but that can’t be helped. I much preferred this version. You might be forced to alter it when you edit the third film as we don't know what part Laketown will play there yet, but for now it's a major improvement.
The Lonely Mountain - When Bilbo spots the stairway, could you cut Thorin’s line «you have keen eyes» - the stair is so #/=!! obvious and I cringe so bad when I hear Thorin say that :xAnd Thorin’s «rue this day» line, could that one be removed as well? That is if it is possible and the same to you, of course. My problem with it is that I can’t tell the difference between Armitage and Arnold Schwarzenegger in this one, so if you want to keep it I'll just close my ears with my hands. There’s no wait outside the door, but the whole scene works better now when you cut straight to Balin following Bilbo down, and Balin's words to Bilbo didn't feel as out of place this time. Maybe it's because all the action-packed stuff has been removed, and a quiet moment doesn't feel like something odd taken from another movie. The conversation between Smaug and Bilbo needs working on, but as you say, this is a rough cut and I don’t need to point that out for you. I MUCH preferred your ending – Smaug flew off just when he should have, thank Eru for that.
To sum up: The awful changes Jackson has made are still there, but without Azog, Tauriel, orcs in Laketown, Radaghast, Gandalf side story (and having his staff broken AGAIN
) – the list goes on – this is a much better and preferable version, and it is watchable (or will be, once you get a version in decent quality to work with). I’m slightly excited about your two-movie idea, or even one long movie. Take that as a compliment, as I’ve not been excited about these films since your AUJ edit. Hopefully Tauriel and Legolas wiped out all the orcs so you won’t have any trouble with them editing the last film. There are a few issues, like the fact that Jackson chose to split the dwarf party in two, and we don't know what sort of introduction we'll get to Thorin and his dwarves in the third film. We’ll just have to wait and see how that’ll work in your edits, but at least there’s hope now for a half-decent Hobbit film (or two). I am considering watching the third film, if only to be able to give you proper feedback on the last edit. Good work as always, Petty, I look forward to seeing the edit in high quality and as a part of AUJ
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:32 pm
Thanks Ringdrotten for the feedback.
I did almost nothing in terms of smoothing between cuts, and there are bits in it that wont be in the final but were too fiddly to remove for such a poor quality end product, and there are bits where extra shots need to be found and dropped between two cuts etc
I will wait until its possible to work on a proper HD version in the future before I devote a lot of time to it.
But I think as either the middle of a 3 and half hour film, or as the end of the first of two it will at least make something vaguely watchable for those who just want the focus on the book story line and not PJ's additions.
I did almost nothing in terms of smoothing between cuts, and there are bits in it that wont be in the final but were too fiddly to remove for such a poor quality end product, and there are bits where extra shots need to be found and dropped between two cuts etc
I will wait until its possible to work on a proper HD version in the future before I devote a lot of time to it.
But I think as either the middle of a 3 and half hour film, or as the end of the first of two it will at least make something vaguely watchable for those who just want the focus on the book story line and not PJ's additions.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Ringdrotten Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:37 pm
"But I think as either the middle of a 3 and half hour film, or as the end of the first of two it will at least make something vaguely watchable for those who just want the focus on the book story line and not PJ's additions." - Petty
It could definitely work, but it all depends on the third film. Might be the EE adds something watchable as well, which would be a big help. We can but wait and see
It could definitely work, but it all depends on the third film. Might be the EE adds something watchable as well, which would be a big help. We can but wait and see
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Mrs Figg Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:52 pm
sounds good Petty, cant wait for the final version 
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Bluebottle Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:19 pm
Well, it will be interesting to see what you can salvage from it Petty.
Still, it being anything like the Hobbit is perhaps to much to hope for?
Still, it being anything like the Hobbit is perhaps to much to hope for?
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Music of the Ainur Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:28 pm
Bluebottle wrote:
it is a bit strange rediscovering how many problems I had with RotK, which is coming up next, but also how much I enjoyed Fellowship. They just seemed to get the feel right at the begginging in my opninon.
I agree that FotR started very encouragingly, to begin with I liked it very much indeed and was not bothered that much at all for quite a while and overlooked the changes made. It was of course far from perfect in my opinion, leaving out, The Shire meeting with the elves, Tom Bombadil and the Old forest, and Barrow downs not the least of the early diminishing revisions, but I understood that they Have to condense and omit somethings.
Lots of other issues too of course, but after enduring the other crappy changes...and then what they did to Galadriel and Lothlorien was the straw that broke the back of my flexibility and tolerance. They changed the spirit and sense of Awesome Good Power of her into something ugly and scary for me. Missed the tone by many many miles.
and why? how did this bring more power to the movie?And as far as RotK I don't even what to drag that up... It is rife with clueless tomfoolery. I can't resist this jab though, one of my favorites,
Frodo says , Go away Sam, I have a new best friend now ,(Gollum)...
or the asinine warping of Faramir... 
Why do those people insist on sucking all the powerful goodness out of Tolkiens tales til all that remains is a weak shadow? I will never understand their reasoning ,and foolish arrogant minds.
Again I will state as I have claimed since I first started participating on these forums...
...I don't think the Coven even likes Tolkien very much if at all. How could they love his stories and do the dirty deeds they have done time and again? Bad judgement can't explain all of their diminishing revisions. The most logical reason is a basic absence of a fondness for them
coven ...You are at least more gifted than JRR in your own minds anyhow...arsses 
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Bluebottle Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:45 pm
Great points Music.
I don't really know exactly what worked with Fellowship, so I find it easier just to put down to feel.
It's like you can have two sitcoms with almost exactly the same script, and one will sink without trace while the other might go on for 20 series or whatever.
That's what I felt worked with the start of Fellowship. While it had a lot of other problems as you've pointed out. Getting the feel right can often rescue something from the hounding something that doesn't have the feel but the same mistakes will get.
That's how I feel about Fellowship and RotK, I guess.
Don't know if that made all that much sense though.
I don't really know exactly what worked with Fellowship, so I find it easier just to put down to feel.
It's like you can have two sitcoms with almost exactly the same script, and one will sink without trace while the other might go on for 20 series or whatever.
That's what I felt worked with the start of Fellowship. While it had a lot of other problems as you've pointed out. Getting the feel right can often rescue something from the hounding something that doesn't have the feel but the same mistakes will get.
That's how I feel about Fellowship and RotK, I guess.
Don't know if that made all that much sense though.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Music of the Ainur Tue Dec 24, 2013 6:21 am
whoops I see now that we are discussing the PettyPuristEdits...
my remarks were not directed towards the edited versions but the pj version... sorry.
I find the edited versions to be very much more enjoyable. It has been a while since I watched and I will watch them again before I comment further regarding them.
my remarks were not directed towards the edited versions but the pj version... sorry.
I find the edited versions to be very much more enjoyable. It has been a while since I watched and I will watch them again before I comment further regarding them.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:58 am
Just finished editing DOS onto AUJ- complete running time is 2hours 23minutes and 26 seconds (excluding end credits- which I believe is nearly half an hour shorter than just the theatrical edition of AUJ! DOS on its own is 53minutes 13 seconds long).
I'm outputting it now (that'll take a couple of hours anyway- and will put in on the skydrive for those with access- which will take many hours ).
Even if I say so myself its a significant improvement on my first rough cut! (although there are still some sound issues at cuts that will be hopefully sorted when I come to do a proper HD version- it just not worth all the hassle to fix now when I am going to have to do it all again shortly when the blueray comes out anyway, but in terms of scene choice and placement I dont think there will be much if any difference from this version barring suggestions from folks here)
I'm outputting it now (that'll take a couple of hours anyway- and will put in on the skydrive for those with access- which will take many hours
).Even if I say so myself its a significant improvement on my first rough cut! (although there are still some sound issues at cuts that will be hopefully sorted when I come to do a proper HD version- it just not worth all the hassle to fix now when I am going to have to do it all again shortly when the blueray comes out anyway, but in terms of scene choice and placement I dont think there will be much if any difference from this version barring suggestions from folks here)
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by azriel Mon Dec 30, 2013 11:54 am
You give me something PJ never could.............. something to look forward to !
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:47 pm
The purist edit is currently uploaded- its 577mb so should only take ages instead of bloody ages to upload.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:26 pm
Its uploaded 12% in just under 2 hours 
I hate uploading! 
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Radaghast Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:30 pm
Sheesh!
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:32 pm
Yeah got to hope it picks up a bit of speed!
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Radaghast Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:33 pm
What type of connection is it?
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:39 pm
The problem is with Microsoft, if I want fast upload I need to shell out for it, otherwise its capped ridiculously low to prevent people like me doing exactly what I am doing.
Fortunately I am both in sturdy control of the lock on my sporran and a stubborn old bastard. So screw you Microsoft!
Fortunately I am both in sturdy control of the lock on my sporran and a stubborn old bastard. So screw you Microsoft!
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Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
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*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
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*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
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Re: Petty's Purist LotR Edits [3]
by Pettytyrant101 Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:48 pm
44% and its only taken it about 4 hours 
So hoping it will be available in about another 5!
So hoping it will be available in about another 5!
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Pure Publications, The Tower of Lore and the Former Admin's Office are Reasonably Proud to Present-
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*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
A Green And Pleasant Land
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*Pure Publications reserves the right to track your usage of this publication, snoop on your home address, go through your bins and sell personal information on to the highest bidder.
Warning may contain Wholesome Tales[/b]
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