Petty's Purist LotR Edits [2]

Here we go- for now- book 1 part A-

Typical- left the hour bit cut the 10 minute bit! Will try to reupload see what happens- heres next bit for long as it lasts.

Shit, Petty ! your not having much luck !

Well it was a long shot Azriel- they lasted the entire day- longer than I expected- but no one watched. 

I started watching Part 1A, Petty, though I took a break to chat with someone on FB.  It's pretty good, though some of the minor cuts to the Shire material I wasn't sure why you made them.  I liked your prologue a lot, though.

One thing I was curious to know why you left in is Bilbo's "it is no bad thing to celebrate s simple life".  That always seemed to me to be very out of place given that he was plotting to leave the Shire forever at that same time.

some of the minor cuts to the Shire material I wasn't sure why you made them.- Eldo

Could you give more detail Eldo- I reinstated the 17 year gap- which explains all the cuts regards Merry, Pippin and Sam prior to that.
Other cuts were merely to keep the opening focus on Bilbo.


The line you mention comes at a bad time to cut as its the cap to a scene, it has a musical sting accomanying it (always hard to edit round) and the acompanying visual- of Bilbo's party banner being hoisted- is an important narrative point so had to stay.

I was talking about some of the really minor stuff, like fractions of lines at the ends of cuts.  I think there were a few shots cut as Gandalf was riding up to Bag End during his conversation with Frodo that jumped out to me, if only because I've seen the original version of that scene so many times.

I cut the bit where Gandalf lights the fireworks for the hobbit children- I think thats the only cut in that scene- as it completely contradicts what Gandalf says about fireworks in the book where he is very crabbit about them- and it made Gandalf too much the friendly twinkly eye wizard in my view.

Glad you are watching though Eldo- at least you got to see the intro!

Have you go to the shadow of the past section?- Id like to hear your comments on that if possible before it gets pulled too.

I would watch your Hobbit edit if you put it on Dailymotion Petty.

I was planning too mrs Figg- but I figured it would be more stringently policed than a decades old film, so I thought Id try the LotR's edits first- and as I cant seem to get it uploaded without being pulled I dont think there is much chance for TH- and it takes about an hour to convert and cut to upload length- and 3-4 hours to upload it. So sadly I dont think it will be worth it.

I think the first hour of fellowship (above) still plays though- give it a go.

I got to watch it Petty ! Ive got a few ideas, will get back in a bit, gotta do something 1st.

Glad you got to see it Azriel- I look forward to hearing your thoughts on it.

Still not sure why the first part has so far escaped censor but the other two got caught within half a day.
If I can work that out I might be able to work out how to get away with the rest.

I finished watching Part 1A.  It was fun, especially because I haven't watched Fellowship in a long time.  Last time I tried I was annoyed at my ability to anticipate every single line before it was spoken, so this was nice because I didn't know exactly what was coming. The 17 years later subtitle actually worked better than I thought it would, but I was disappointed at what it did to Merry and Pippin.  They were already shortchanged in the characterization department at the beginning of FOTR, and removing them from the party leaves them basically complete strangers when they run into Frodo and Sam as far as the audience is aware.

You asked about Shadow of the Past, so I was watching especially closely in that part.  To be perfectly honest, I didn't really care for it.  There's a lot of important backstory to be communicated there, but I think the flashbacks go on for way too long.  The Last Alliance and Deagol finding the Ring work in the originals because they're prologues that are partially set apart from the rest of the film.  I think using some of that material was good, but as it is they're too long.  The lack of voiceover also makes the scene pretty confusing unless you've read the book.  If possible, I think adding some explanatory dialogue from Gandalf would have made the flashbacks work better.  Also, I don't know what your version of the Council of Elrond was like, but I'd probably save more of the backstory for that.

I mentioned earlier that I thought some of the minor cuts seemed pointless, and there were more like that.  I'm not sure why you shortened Butterbur's conversation with Frodo when they enter the inn, especially since it removes basically the only characterization (forgetful innkeeper) that distinguishes him from a wooden post that can answer questions.  A few other moments I could understand (like the Nazgul smashing the gate at Bree or Frodo's magnetic finger) but it made for some awkward cuts.  I will say, however, that I really liked how you handled the scene of the Hobbits hiding under the tree.  I've seen that scene picked apart so many times that it's started to impact my enjoyment of the original cut, and while it's still a bit implausible, removing the part where Merry noisily throws a bag into the woods makes it much better and increases the role of the Ring.  Two birds, one stone, really great decision and execution of that change.

Anyway, I had fun watching the first hour of your edits, so I appreciate you posting it to Dailymotion.

Im only guessing ! but, do you think MAYBE there was some sort of censorship on it ? ok, it got thru 1st time but, after that "they" wised up & decided not to continue ? Nah,come to think of it, "they" would have pulled the 1st one wouldnt they, Its PJs spies, theyre everywhere

The edits serve a duel purpose Eldo- firsty they are somethng I can watch without hating more of than I enjoy.
And secondly to show how they could have been done- if it was me I would have made the flashback shadows scenes more succint and go with a voiceover (sadly PJ used Galadriel for narration- if he had used Gandalf I could have included a voice over).
So whilst no Shadows as it stands is not as I would ideally have it, I think it demonstrates that had the script been written following Tolkiens structure more closely it could have been done.
In showing the film to people I have found those who dont know Tolkien find they remember and understand the Ring history better this way than when ita all given in a big flashy blur in the first 10 minutes.

Interesting with you commenting the sequence is too long- the point at which Frodo and Sam leave the Shire is almost the same as Pj's extended cut- my opening section is in fact 2 minutes shorter than what you normaly watch- there is just a lot more info in it and a lot less wasted (perhaps making it feel denser)

Regards Merry and Pippin I felt the characterisation they got at the party was detrimental to them and set them out as mischief petty thieves- too far from the book for me, also with putting back in the 17 year gap (which I feel pays off when they meet Bilbo at Rivendell) there was no way to keep them in, looking exactly the same- there is at least some in-film explanation for Frodo not seeming to age once he is the owner of the Ring.

I cut the Butterbur line becuase yes he is forgetful, but no so he wouldnt klnow who Gandalf was. And I figured PJ had bastarised the character so much into supscious barman that he was better served not being confused to much with book Barliman.

There are some cuts you may not see a reason for, but I can assure you no cut was made without a great deal of thought first and serving some perceived purpose.

Thanks for watching, and thanks for commenting though Eldo- its appreciated always.
Its a shame you cant see th elater stuff like TT and RotK- as obviously they took the most sorting.

Ok, you had Eldo pick the bones, now my turn. How would I understand it if this was my 1st time ? Actually,quite well. As you can only distort what PJ has issued,your hands are tied a little. I want to be honest but not be critically harsh. I think at 28mins on, as we see Sauron etc, some dialogue would be helpful ? but all in all I was happy with it. I had my bristly moments when I thought " hows this gonna work?" but it did flow ok & knit together. Felt less "light" & more "adult" if you get what I mean ? The 17yr gap worked better than I sensed. Obviously you can do nothing bout PJs attention seeking niggles, ie: a disco red lazer light show going on when Frodo inspects the ring after Gandy tries to barbeque it.Bilbo saying the rings on the mantlepiece when he had no time what so ever in getting it there ! etc. I liked it,&, with the addition of a little light dialogue in the right places, it would be easy for a beginner to take in. I still cant get over Frodo at Bree tripping & the ring going on his finger & NO ONE NOTICES when he re-appears ??!! WTF ?! but thats detracting from your work & Im getting hot under the corset about PJs f**k ups ! 

And NO, Merry & Pippin were not village idiots as PJ tried to make them look ! Them & Fatty Bolger were more intelligent & helpful than that !! Boy, as time goes on you really see the cock ups PJ inserted !
(Im sure there's a joke in there if you look )

Pettytyrant101 wrote:The edits serve a duel purpose Eldo- firsty they are somethng I can watch without hating more of than I enjoy.

I understand that, and I tried to be keep that in mind when writing my comments. I like a lot of what you were trying to do and I do understand that there were limits to what you could do in editing, but there were a couple changes that I just didn't agree with. That's just my opinion of course, and I admire all the work you've put into this project.

Interesting with you commenting the sequence is too long- the point at which Frodo and Sam leave the Shire is almost the same as Pj's extended cut- my opening section is in fact 2 minutes shorter than what you normaly watch- there is just a lot more info in it and a lot less wasted (perhaps making it feel denser)

The only thing I said felt long was the flashbacks. The rest of the edit flowed pretty well, but it just ground to a halt during the Shadow of the Past scene. I can see why you wanted to show Gollum's origins, but letting (nearly) the entire prologue of ROTK play out kills the pacing and emotion and makes it jarring to return to Bag End after that. Also, a theoretical novice audience wouldn't even know who Gollum is at this point, so the lack of context and lack of voiceover would make for some confused viewing.

Regards Merry and Pippin I felt the characterisation they got at the party was detrimental to them and set them out as mischief petty thieves- too far from the book for me, also with putting back in the 17 year gap (which I feel pays off when they meet Bilbo at Rivendell) there was no way to keep them in, looking exactly the same- there is at least some in-film explanation for Frodo not seeming to age once he is the owner of the Ring.

Yeah, it's a dilemma and one to which there is probably no completely satisfactory solution that can be done in editing. Like I said though, I do think that the re-instated gap works much better than I thought it would.

I cut the Butterbur line becuase yes he is forgetful, but no so he wouldnt klnow who Gandalf was. And I figured PJ had bastarised the character so much into supscious barman that he was better served not being confused to much with book Barliman.

Barliman is a very transient character in the films, but I didn't think he was especially suspicious. He also didn't forget Gandalf, he just took a moment to remember him, which really is not that out of line with book!Barliman (to my memory, at least). This is a minor point, but trimming Barliman's scenes down even further just felt like it removed some of the color from a minor but important side-character. I understand that you'd have approached the character differently if you were filming LOTR from scratch, but for me as a viewer it just made Bree feel blander.

There are some cuts you may not see a reason for, but I can assure you no cut was made without a great deal of thought first and serving some perceived purpose.

Thanks for watching, and thanks for commenting though Eldo- its appreciated always.

I completely believe you, and I hope you know that my criticisms here are just the reflection of my own opinions and honest disagreements. I don't at all want to negate the work you've put into the edits. NB I have seen a little bit of TTT from the clips you uploaded to YouTube a while back (portions of the Dead Marshes and Helm's Deep, if my memory serves) and I enjoyed watching those as well.

Thanks Azriel- no its never going to be perfect or how I want it- I only have the footage Pj has made available to work with, and those are tight constraints all in.
When it comes to new viewers the bit Ive found most rewarding is the Ring reveal- in PJ's vesion the audience knows all about its history before they meet Bilbo- in my version, like the book, you only find out about it when Bilbo uses it at the party- and that mystery- of why is Bilbo so agitated- whats his plan with Gandalf- then the supriee when he just vanishes- seems to wiork very well with new viewers who dont know Tolkien.
For that reason alone I think its worth moving the prologue info back to Shadows.
For me Pj always reveals his hand way too early to the audience ruining the moment when it should come.

You're right about PJ having a tendency to show things too early. Just to be clear, I like the idea of having flashbacks during the Shadow of the Past, I just wish they were shorter.

PJ would be great in a card game ! Id win a bomb of him !

Dont worry about harsh comments Eldo- I dont mind. I can give reasons for cuts but I wouldnt for a moment claim everything works perfectly, it doesnt- the question for me is it more or less enjoyable than PJ's- and for me I prefer the niggles removed even if it causes a minor jarring to having to sit through them.
As I said I would have had a voice over and shorter scenes covering Shadows, but I think the premise- that its better narratively to cover the Ring history here, in (shortish) bursts holds true- its easier to see how the Ring got to Frodo and its importance.

I found PJ's Barliman very supscious- PJ groups him physically with the Ferny character at the bar, they all look supsicously over at the hobbits table together, the montage scene where Frodo is fondling the Ring he looks sinister- I felt the intrusion of a small clumsy part of his book character into it just made a bigger mess of it- better to just portray him the way most of the footage does- as not perhaps trustworthy.
Obviously I wouldn have done Bree like Pj does at all- but thats another matter.

Imeant to ask earlier and forgot- you said you liked the Black Rider  scene- did you feel it benefited from that bing their first, unannounced appearence?

Like the shortening of the party.