Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [2]

[Orwell]

He said that these fruits and vegetables “resemble the male penis” and hence could arouse women or “make them think of sex.” Bikyamasr.com cannot independently verify the accuracy of the news item at time of writing.

As opposed to resembling the female penis?

It doesn't look the least like a female penis - and I've seen a few!

[Orwell]

Actually..... they may have been male penises... or what looked like male penises... in movies maybe...

[Mrs Figg]

why do women put up with this crap? they will be putting out the thought police next. It starts out with banning red lipstick and it just seems to be accepted until it just gets out of hand. ok a few put up a fight and get stoned, but what if all of them just said no, what would the mad mullahs do, stone all the women in the country, I dont think so. Its time for them to wake up, stop living in fear and put an end to this slavery.

[Orwell]

If I was a woman in one of those repressive socities, I'd do what I'm told, until I could find the means to flee to a democracy somewhere. Sadly, I think women put up with it because they don't want to be killed for their insolence. Put up with the crap? You do if you don't want to be further repressed, or killed. The evil Americans in Afghanistan (for example) are actually a force for female emanicipation. No one here in Forumshire, of course, will agree, as most here happily defend evil patriarchy and revile moderate Western governments. (No, I'm not suggesting Western democracies are perfect).

And while I'm having a grump, Assange comes to mind.

(1) Releases state secrets, (2) sexually assaults women, (3) finds solace with a government that shuts down news agencies that criticise it... Hero of our times? But shouldn't that be "self-serving ego-maniac"?

[Mrs Figg]

I agree individuals have to do what they are told, but I was thinking en masse, you know a civil uprising where all the women say thats enough to the burka and the mutilation. If they all said no that would be the end of the line.

As for Assange I am not sure, something about him gives me the creeps.

[David H]

Sadly, I think women put up with it because they don't want to be killed for their insolence. Put up with the crap? You do if you don't want to be further repressed, or killed.

You forgot one. The threat of being declared unfit mothers and having their children taken away from them.

The evil Americans in Afghanistan (for example) are actually a force for female emanicipation.

I'm proud of much that has been attempted in Afghanistan, particularly helping support educational opportunities for women. We've sown some good seeds, but I've also noticed that wherever the US has a permanent military presence, the seeds of drug and alcohol abuse and prostitution also seem to take root. IMO it's time to get our troops home for their own good as well as the Afghanis.

And while I'm having a grump, Assange comes to mind.
(1) Releases state secrets, (2) sexually assaults women, (3) finds solace with a government that shuts down news agencies that criticise it... Hero of our times? But shouldn't that be "self-serving ego-maniac"?

I don't for one second see him as a hero, but I wish somebody would try to get the facts and, if they think he's guilty, charge him with something!

You say he sexually assaults women? Then why hasn't the Swedish government filed criminal charges???? Why haven't they even come and taken a statement from him when his attorneys have offered???? It's looks like they're not even trying to make this case in the courts, but would prefer instead to damage his reputation as much as possible by innuendo in the world press, whether he's guilty or innocent. That's not how it's supposed to work.

As to releasing state secrets, I think we're long overdue in this country for a healthy public discussion of the line between "State Secret" and "Coverup". The Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld team intentionally dismantled a lot of our protections in this area.

Bradly Manning has been charged with leaking the documents, which is absolutely appropriate. By all accounts he committed a crime (though torturing him while he awaited trial wasn't so smart )

But no charges have been filed against the newspapers that published all the leaked materials. That's not a crime. So has anybody ever said what law Assange is supposed to have broken? I think right now all they're claiming is that he violated his parole by going into the embassy.

No, Assange isn't a hero, but why can't all of our governments just grow up and follow the rule of Law? Either charge him with something or move on.

{{{And Mrs Figg, I think the creepiness is partly just the Aussie-ness showing through. Like Murdock. }}}

[Mrs Figg]

I think you are right Dave.

There is something shifty about him though, I wouldnt trust him as far as I could throw him. Assange that is.

[Pettytyrant101]

Time to chuck some controversy in to this and who better tham controversial UK politician George Galloway.
Heres what he said on the matter of rape in an interview about Assanges case;

On the issue of whether this would constitute rape or not, Mr Galloway suggested that "not everybody needs to be asked prior to each insertion".

"Some people believe that when you go to bed with somebody, take off your clothes, and have sex with them and then fall asleep, you're already in the sex game with them.
It might be really bad manners not to have tapped her on the shoulder and said, 'do you mind if I do it again?'
It might be really sordid and bad sexual etiquette, but whatever else it is, it is not rape or you bankrupt the term rape of all meaning."

An intresting point, my mates wife often jokes he can have sex as often as he likes so long as he doesnt wake her up.
But is this rape?
If you are actually in bed with a woman who you have just had sex with I would say it is generally considered that consent for sex has already been given.
Or are men supposed to get women to fill in a form every time?

[David H]

I'd love to hear this Galloway character debate "legitimate rape" with our nutcase Rep. Akin (preferably in a cage).

[Pettytyrant101]

It was a 30 minute podcast he made where he made those comments, prior to the bit I quoted he said;

"Mr Galloway, a frequent critic of the US and UK governments, said Mr Assange's "only crime was to expose, through Wikileaks, malfeasance by states including our own and the US on a truly gargantuan scale".
In a thirty minute podcast, the controversial anti-war MP said it was "an extraordinary coincidence that public enemy number one, Julian Assange, somehow gets inveigled with two women with incredibly complex political backgrounds who just, at the right time, come forward with allegations of sexual misconduct against him".
"Let me tell you, I think that Julian Assange's personal sexual behaviour is sordid, disgusting, and I condemn it," he said.
"But even taken at its worst, if the allegations made by these two women were true, 100 per cent true, and even if a camera in the room captured them, they don't constitute rape.
"At least not rape as anyone with any sense can possibly recognise it. And somebody has to say this."

[halfwise]

I have to say I agree with Galloway.

[Pettytyrant101]

Ive got to say so do I- its pretty bad form mind you just having another go when she has fallen alseep, but rape?

[Amarië]

Time to chuck some controversy in to this and who better tham controversial UK politician George Galloway.
Heres what he said on the matter of rape in an interview about Assanges case;

On the issue of whether this would constitute rape or not, Mr Galloway suggested that "not everybody needs to be asked prior to each insertion".

"Some people believe that when you go to bed with somebody, take off your clothes, and have sex with them and then fall asleep, you're already in the sex game with them.
It might be really bad manners not to have tapped her on the shoulder and said, 'do you mind if I do it again?'
It might be really sordid and bad sexual etiquette, but whatever else it is, it is not rape or you bankrupt the term rape of all meaning."

An intresting point, my mates wife often jokes he can have sex as often as he likes so long as he doesnt wake her up.
But is this rape?
If you are actually in bed with a woman who you have just had sex with I would say it is generally considered that consent for sex has already been given.
Or are men supposed to get women to fill in a form every time?

Are you kidding me? First of all, if the woman falls asleep while you do her, a whole lot of alarm bells should go off in your head. Chances are this person should not be in bed with you in the first place. To finish the run is one thing, to start over again is a whole other matter! If it happens to be a girlfriend of wife or such, you probably already know what he/she/it feels about things. Unless you know that this person would be totally or at least fairly cool with you fucking them while sleeping, then don't do it! And just because she/he/it/them said yes once, does not mean they have said "Yes you may fuck me whenever."

If Orwell lets you lick his ice cream, it does not mean you are automatically allowed to raid his freezer and help yourself to his Ben&Jerry's.

You can ruin people's lives here, even your own. Be careful boys.

[Pettytyrant101]

I did say it was bad form- I just question if it constitutues rape - there is no indication she woke and said no, or asked him to stop, or even that she protested afterwards before she left.
I am very doubtful that many men in his postion the next day would think they had raped someone the night before.

Is it right to go ahead anyway for a second time after she is sleeping- no- but is it rape is the question.
And there never seems to be any responsbiilty placed on the woman- they can get pissed, sleep with someone they have just met and spend the night in their bed then claim next day they were too drunk to gvvie consent- even when the man is as equally drunk.
Humans are animals we rely on tryng to interpret the signs same as any other animal- if signs are hugely ambigous should all the blame for that be solely on the man?

[David H]

In general, I'm of the opinion that any woman, man, or child who thinks they've been raped probably has been raped, and no legal explanation will change their minds.

Certainly confusion can arise when one or both parties are so f***ed up they don't know what they're doing, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

As to tabloid accounts of the details of anybody's private sex life, I don't reckon it's my place to have opinions.

[Eldorion]

I've always been under the impression that having sex with someone while they were asleep was a form of rape, even before the Assange case. I applaud WikiLeaks' work as a whistleblowing organization but if the allegations against Assange are true (and that's a fairly big if; innocent until proven guilty is still a thing) then yeah he's a rapist.

I guess if two people agree ahead of time that they're both okay with sex while one person is sleeping then it would be okay but that doesn't seem to be what happened here.

[Pettytyrant101]

thing is if you clearly are having consenting sex - and you are in a bed together for the night- is there a statute of limitations on your consent for the night? Does your right to have sex stop as soon as its over the first time? And even in the course of the same night, in the same bed with the same person are you required to get permission to have sex again?

Personally I think having sex with a women, even if you just have done, once she falls alsleep is pretty damn low and immoral and it would never even cross my mind- but I am not sure it should legally be counted as rape either.
Especially if both parties are drunk and neither is that capable of making informed decisions.

Rape's a hell of a serious charge, it stigmatises a person for life and carries (rightly so) heavy punishments.
As a man I can think of fewer worse things to be accused of than rape.

[halfwise]

She had texted a friend that she was 'half-asleep'. Shades of grey here.

If they had not had sex before falling asleep and she woke to find him having sex with him, I whole-heartedly agree it's rape. But they fell asleep after sex - seems it could be argued it's part of the same consensual session. Loutish as all hell especially since she claims she asked if he was wearing a condom and he wasn't, but with her being half asleep and the other circumstances I wouldn't go as far as rape. I do think she should have thrown him out of the house, but she didn't even throw him out of her bed for the next few nights. She moved out of the bed herself and even to a friend's flat, but never tried to dislodge him from her bed.

All in all, his behavior was disturbing and even immoral, but I'd stop short of shouting rape.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/17/julian-assange-sweden

[Eldorion]

Sleeping in the same bed is not tantamount to consent to have sex, nor does having sex once automatically mean that both parties have consented to have sex again in the future. I have no problem calling someone who has sex with a person who is asleep rape, regardless of whether they had consensual sex in the recent past.

Again though, I don't know what actually happened in the Assange case and there are some fishy circumstances (exacerbated by the witch-hunt mentality surrounding WikiLeaks).

EDIT: What David said.

[David H]

It seems to me that if you aren't 100% certain you have consent, it would be wise to ask....

[Pettytyrant101]

I agree David.
However to play devils advocate here-I suspect he thought he did have consent- she had agreed to spend the night in his bed and have sex with him.
When does that run out during the night?
And are his actions comparable to grabbing a woman off the street at knifepoint and forcibly having sex with her- because as far as the law is concerend rape is rape.

[Eldorion]

When does that run out during the night?

How about ... when they finish having sex? Unless they previously agreed to have sex on and off throughout the entire night, I suppose.

I don't think I see the big question here.

[Pettytyrant101]

The big question is consent. If a woman agrees to spend the nigth with you and have sex with you is that not consent? Do you have to sipulate beforehand how often you want to have sex during that night?

As I say I suspect he thought he did have consent- at least for as long as she stayed with him in the bed.
Or are you saying Eldo that if a woman is in your bed for the night having sex with you that you have to get a clear statement of consent before every time you have sex?

[Eldorion]

I don't think that you don't have to have an explicit verbal contract every time you have sex with a person in normal circumstances because normally your partner will be able to express their desire to stop if that's how they feel. The problem is when someone has sex with a person who is unconscious. In what world is agreeing to sleep in the same bed -- or agreeing to have sex while awake -- tantamount to agreeing to have sex while unconscious?

[Pettytyrant101]

I said it was bad form- I just dont think its the same thing as rape.
Rape implies an intent to have sex with a woman against her will- in the circumstances as described I dont see that as being the case. I dont think he had any intention to rape.