UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

{{I will happily criticise Islam Figg- its a crock of shit like all the other Abraminic based religions of the region- exported shit the rest of us swallowed over a thousand years ago because we were ignorant and we haven't been able to shake its deceits entirely since- though fortunately in the UK at least religion is finally dying on its arse as actual evidence led thinking takes over and those believing in the fantasies of an old book as reality are now in the minority.
But I certainly dont want to see one corrupt, twisted untruthful belief system (Christianity) replaced with another corrupt, twisted untruthful belief system (Islam)- hopefully given time they both disappear as critical thinking replaces indoctrination}}}

I have so many mixed feelings about religions of any kind & find myself in a war zone of the brain. I abhor so called religions that suppress people to the level of shit, IE over women & their place in the world & we can often thank the Arab states for that. I have different friends with different beliefs. I don't object to anyone trying to find solace in their lives as long as you don't use that to dictate & brow beat me & make me be the leper in the colony. Religion is dangerous when it becomes hypnotic & brain washing. I still see religion as a tool from long long ago to control the masses & that many of the so called oaths, vows, whatever you want to call them are just the mirror wishes of the person banging the drum. I am surprised that a "story" ( that's how I see religion ) continues throughout the centuries. So many different religions it gives me headache. Some cultures are SO adamant in their belief that it controls every aspect of their lives. I don't think that's healthy. I believe in good common sense, try to be a good, honest decent person, try to do the best you are able & don't fecking hurt anyone in spite or malice ( unless in self defence ) Watched Planet of The Apes & I thought about the world we live in. IF we had an equal in an animal, say a primate, would that primate have a religion also ? would "he" go against us & admonish it ?  or, what would a primates beliefs be ? Why did religion have to start at all. In my view its the biggest cause of trouble you can find. Yet people have that burning need to cling onto a religion. Maybe they don't feel whole unless they have a spiritual prop ? Its an addictive form of collectivism to me.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{I will happily criticise Islam Figg- its a crock of shit like all the other Abraminic based religions of the region- exported shit the rest of us swallowed over a thousand years ago because we were ignorant and we haven't been able to shake its deceits entirely since- though fortunately in the UK at least religion is finally dying on its arse as actual evidence led thinking takes over and those believing in the fantasies of an old book as reality are now in the minority.
But I certainly dont want to see one corrupt, twisted untruthful belief system (Christianity) replaced with another corrupt, twisted untruthful belief system (Islam)- hopefully given time they both disappear as critical thinking replaces indoctrination}}}

true. It is all one pile of poop, but I object to being called a racist for criticising Muslims, Christians or anybody who try to impose their will as regards religion or culture. If I see Asian grooming gangs I am going to use the word Asian, and if I see Christian Evangelists abusing kids ditto. its got fuck all to do with race, or colour, therefore its not racism, and I am going to speak my mind and call Christmas Christmas and not the fucking 'holidays'. call me a culturist, or an anti-mediaeval bullshitist, but nobody can call me a racist. I am not against non-European immigration because they are Black, its because they come from bullshit shithole countries full of corruption, evil dictators, and religious nutters who treat women like cattle, these are not boatloads of doctors and lawyers, they boatloads of desperate poor people who have zero chance of finding work unless they become slaves to the mafia, the women prostitutes and the kids sold for their organs. they have decimated the natural Italian tolerance, and thats why there are neo-fascists in power in Italy. If you go to Italy and see the tourist areas they are literally choking under a carpet of Africans selling fake goods you are not left in peace for 5 minutes without beggars, who rompere il cazzo, and the public transport and trains are literally a no go zone for females. its fucking mad, and it has to stop. Europe will have to follow Australian rules as regards immigration or we are finished. already the Right has taken over in Italy, France, Austria and Eastern Europe, if we don't sort this out and stop the emptying of Africa into Europe, there is bad trouble ahead for the Left..

Mrs Figg wrote:

halfwise wrote:Well, I do seem to remember years ago you complained about non-assimilated muslims ruining the English culture, Figgs.  It may not be outright racism so much as conservatism: keep things the way they used to be.

.....
when it comes to illegal economic migration from non-EU countries I support the right I suppose that makes me conservative or whatever, and I think like this because I have seen Italy being destroyed by an invasion of Africans, who beg outside every shop, restaurant, supermarket and bar, beach and even outside hospital car parks in every town in Italy. But these are my views about Italy and not the UK, the context is different in the UK, and I do think some non-assimilated muslims are a problem, but I fail to see why that is racist, its their culture of sexist mediaeval views, the sharia law, and the grooming gangs ect,  I have a problem with, not the colour of their skin.
The whole problem we have in the West is just this attitude that anyone who questions the muslim culture is a racist, and those who question the Israelis are racist. I object to being called a racist, and I wont tolerate it from anyone.

I didn't call you racist, I took issue with your claim that those who supported Brexit due to immigration issues were being racist.  I think you just made my point.

no I didn't. I voted Remain. Because I am not racist.
It is a fact however that UKIP was based on getting rid of immigrants. the whole of brexit was based on getting rid of immigrants. of all types.

anyway talking about race and religion is about as bad as talking about grass length, and can get you killed in Forumshire, so I will put a sock in it.

{{May and her government are a hopeless waste of space who currently are fighitng like cats in a sack.

If you recall about a fortnight ago May announced she had two alternative plans for the UK/EU relationship post Brexit- she spilt her cabinet in two halves- the hard-liners and the soft Brexit lot and then gave them each others proposals to go through and then they would all get back together and agree between the two on the final settlement and proposal and that would be the Brexit exit plan.
Right up until this week when Gove quite literally ripped up the so called plan in a rage at the proposals and then blatantly leaked the fact he had done so to the press. Then 19th century perpetual Oxford student Jacob Reece-Mogg who leads a powerful group of hard-liners announced that any proposal less than complete exit from the customs union and out of the European Court would be vetoed by his lot anyway.
And at the same time the EU is saying you need to get your proposals on the table very quickly or there will be no deal at all.

So whats May our wonderful and decisive leader saying now about her two great plans?

'the government has now deemed both options practically or politically undeliverable.'

Brilliant. So her genius solution?

'Downing Street has produced a third model for handling customs after the UK leaves the EU'

Genius! Another plan! Her government cant agree on anything- they couldn't pick one option out of two how does she expect agreement on this option when she couldn't even narrow it down to a single plan only a week or so ago?

I dont want Brexit, I never voted for it, I think its a bad idea. But if we have to have it I would like to see it being done with a modicum of ability and skill, and with someone having a clear idea of what Brexit actually looks like. Instead we have a daily slow-motion car crash where our government should be. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{I dont want Brexit, I never voted for it, I think its a bad idea. But if we have to have it I would like to see it being done with a modicum of ability and skill, and with someone having a clear idea of what Brexit actually looks like. Instead we have a daily slow-motion car crash where our government should be. }}

So if your government continues to be disfunctional and never gets around to making a deal, could you remind me what date it all goes horribly wrong?

even Tories are fed up with the arrogance of Mogg. one of them told him to shut it.

Esther McVile up to her old tricks and the quitter campaign accused of criminal activity. what a pile of shysters.

I am almost past caring about Brexit anymore, two bloody years of this shit dragging on and on, it's exhausting, embarrassing and annoying that after all this time we have made barely any progress towards a firm deal or plan, I voted Remain and maintain that the decision to vote leave is the worst the UK has made in many decades, but at this point in time I just want *something* to happen either way...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{I dont want Brexit, I never voted for it, I think its a bad idea. But if we have to have it I would like to see it being done with a modicum of ability and skill, and with someone having a clear idea of what Brexit actually looks like. Instead we have a daily slow-motion car crash where our government should be.

Problem is that while remainders voted for one thing... brexiteers bored for many different types of Brexit and now everyone is arguing about which version.

This is why it should go to another vote once the deal is known. Although they just need to get the fuck on with it!!

this is an appalling situation for business. if I was the head of the motoring industry I would sue the government for gross incompetence.

{{Well today is allegedly the day we find out what the actual Brexit position is from this feckless bunch of Tories.
May has them all locked away in Chequers for 12 hours to thrash out a final do or die deal. Saying her Cabinet has 'a duty' to agree- not sure collective Cabinet responsibility is high up this Cabinets skill set given they've been at each others throats publicly in the press for months and months.
If she doesn't get a deal then I reckon she is a goner as PM- and I can see a contest emerging between Boris, Gove and Reece-Mogg!! Some choice- Boris an over-intellectualised overly energetic clumsy spaniel, Gove the politician most likely to be cast in a film playing a Nazi's lookalike and Mogg, the right wing zealots version of Walter the Softy from the Beano  }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Well today is allegedly the day we find out what the actual Brexit position is from this feckless bunch of Tories.}}

Great! At last something to take my mind off of Trade Wars!

{{I'll be gobsmacked if they can come up with a position the whole Cabinet back for more than 24 hours and they still have to bring the backbenchers like Mogg and his crew of upper class twits with them too }}

{{They are still locked up in Chequers and so far no leaks, apparently phones ect all been confiscated.
But even if somehow they can reach an agreement- they still have to present it to he rest of the EU who will probably reject large parts of it as the UK cherry-picking and wanting to have its cake and eat it - the whole things is a mess}}

{{May still has them locked in their- we are well into ordering out for pizza time now! }}}

I hope it all goes tits up

{{Well the govenrment had decided on a position- well sort of, only until we see the white paper its just a lot of vagueness to me, stuff I cant see the EU accepting, and will certainly not please the Mogg lot or those who voted for a clean break.
If you voted remain its not likely to please much either as a lot of it just seems a way to keep what we have, only now we will have more bureaucracy in the way to do it and no say over making the rules!

Anyway according to the BBC this is what was agreed -with sarcastic added commentary by me!

'The UK would accept continuing "harmonisation" with EU rules on the trade in goods, covering only those necessary to ensure frictionless trade'

In short when it comes to stuff we need to sell fast to the continent- fresh fish, shellfish, other food stuffs mainly we will stick to EU rules in return for which we expect frictionless trade- ie no tariffs or border checks. sticking point here is what exactly does sticking to EU rules mean in this context- allowing access to our fishing waters to EU vessels as it currently stands? Maintaining equal healthy, safety and hygiene standards?
The fishing community largely voted leave on the basis of retaking control of fishing stocks in UK waters, they wont like it if the whole point of them voting leave is taken away.



'Parliament would have the final say over how these rules are incorporated into UK law, retaining the right to refuse to do so'

Can see the EU rejecting this on the basis we want to have our cake and eat it, because we do. And if we do decide to not incorporate something EU regards frictionless trade then the EU would be within their rights to change the rules at their end too as it pleased- making this unworkable in practise. We cant both say to the EU we will stick to these rules in return for frictionless trade, oh but by the way we also want to reserve the right to not stick to the rules if we dont want to!



'There will be different arrangements for trade in services, including financial products, with greater "regulatory flexibility" and "strong reciprocal arrangements"'

This is all about protecting the city of London. There is a fear a lot of the financial services will move to the continent over time particualry to Paris, and the French would love that. Not sure what the 'strong reciporal arrangements' will be but in normal speak it should just read 'bribes'.

'Freedom of movement as it stands will come to an end but a "mobility framework" will ensure UK and EU citizens can continue to travel to each other's territories and apply for study and work'

'Mobility framework'- they just made that up! There is no such thing! What is it? It sounds like we keep freedom of movement only now its not free and there will be forms to pay for to fill out and waste tax payers money on, just to let us do something we can do now hassle free! And if its the same as freedom of movement then that's not going to please the anti-immigrant crowd that voted to leave, and if we put some sort of restrictions on the numbers then so will the EU on those wanting to work in Europe from the UK and their framework is suddenly not very mobile after-all. Seems utterly pointless, just replacing something we have now that's simple and straightforward with something stupid and expensive and bureaucratic and probably won't work.

'A new customs arrangement will be phased in, with the goal of "a combined customs territory"'

What? They are at it again, 'combined customs territory' they made that up too. What is that? Is it a customs union like we already have but May thinks if she makes up a new name for it the hard-liners will go 'oh that's ok its not staying in the customs union then'- and how long is the 'phase in' phase to take? And what happens while we phase in, do we stick to the rules of the current custom union? Do we still have to pay into the pot? If so what's the point from the leave perspective? Moggs lot will not like this one bit!

'The UK will be able to control its own tariffs and develop an independent trade policy'


Oh I see! So we are going to stay in the customs union by just calling it something else, but we still want to act as if we aren't in a customs union by making all our own trade deals and setting our own tariffs. Yeah that's not wanting to have your cake and eat it- no way the EU will swallow this particular cake. May's having a laugh here.

'The jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice will end but the UK will pay regard to its decisions in areas where common rules were in force.'

Anyone for fudge? Get your lovely Tory fudge right here! We've mountains of the stuff! I mean what does that mean? We leave the EU court but where we already have EU court laws we will maintain them, sort of, what does 'pay regard to them mean?' stick to them? follow them? acknowledge they exist as a concept in a 3 dimensional universe? What exactly?


Really need to see the white paper for details, May is making all sort of claims including that these proposals somehow solve the customs union, tariffs, deal, court and bizarrely the Northern Ireland border issue- if anyone else can spot how I'd love to know because the released set of proposals above is nonsense, made up phrases, less than half-arsed compromises (not with the Eu between Tories!) and attempts to keep all the good stuff from being in the EU whilst also doing all the stuff you can only do outside  the EU.
It wont fly with the Mogg lot, the Farages and Goves and it won't please remainers because it's just an attempt to keep what we already have only at greater expense, no say in procedures and with more bureaucracy.
And I don't see the EU agreeing to most of it as we are trying to cherry pick the good bits.

What will be interesting now is to see what the reactions are, particualry from the hardliners. May is saying that up till now she has waved aside Collective Cabinet Responsibility in order to let her Ministers freely argue their case publicly (her excuse for all the public fights!) but no longer- the Maybot is stomping her leopard print heels down on it-
"agreement on this proposal marks the point where this is no longer the case and collective responsibility is fully restored".
Or in short she is telling the hardliners its time to shut their mouths, no more leaking or fights in the press and to publicly back the government position from now on and agree with it whether they do really or not.
This means the backbench hardliners, of which the Tories have many more than in the Cabinet, led by Mogg will now have no Cabinet level Ministers putting their case- May is effectively telling them they lost the argument so shut it. I can't see Mogg shutting it. More like making a leadership bid.}}


edit add- the full statement -  https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/723460/CHEQUERS_STATEMENT_-_FINAL.PDF

Although doesn't make anything clearer. I still don't see how the proposed Facilitated Customs Arrangement as they call it solves the border issue in Ireland as claimed. The text claims-

The UK would apply the UK’s tariffs and trade policy for goods intended for the UK, and the EU’s tariffs and trade policy for goods intended for the EU'

How do you do that without some sort of border checks to see what goods are coming and going? }}

the EU will take one look, shovel through the fudge and disingenuous garbage and reject it. quite rightly. its full of meaningless waffle made up in one of those useless 'think tanks'.

{{{ The devil will be in the white paper of course- but right now the official statement uses terms and phrases that could be interpreted in a wide amount of ways (or that they've just outright made up altogether!) that I'm sure Blue could easily drive his legal horse and coaches right through it, sideways. }}}

Thanks for the translation Petty. It all makes much more sense when you explain it!

{{{{I think... }}}}