UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

Mind blowing scenes of utter chaos in the House of Commons today. never seen anything like it bloody hell! total uproar as no white paper had been given out to MPs before questions about white paper. amateurs or deliberate?

{{He does live shows, in fact I think he is on tour now (why he has been doing his 'reports' from other locations than London recently) and possibly the Edinburgh Fringe this year }}

can the remainer Brits sign this.

https://www.peoples-vote.uk/petition_landing

looks like the right whingers are getting frit, they have started up the old chestnut, Corbyn is a racist rubbish. its getting dangerous.

{{{ What I've found out about this I didn't like- is it all started when Labour adopted a version of wording about anti-Semitism that apparently was not the same as the internationally accepted one. First why the fuck is there a version of events that is forced on everyone internationally? And secondly and even worse in my view this includes a stipulation that Israel should never be compared with Naziism (this was the bit Labour left out in their version and started the whole row).

Right now the Israeli government has passed legislation which essentially creates Jews only areas (even if they did water the language down from explicitly stating that to something vaguer which let them do the same thing anyway but didn't sound so bad).

'The EU has led a chorus of criticism after Israel passed a controversial law declaring that only Jews have the right of self-determination in the country.... the EU joined Israeli Arab political leaders, Israeli opposition politicians and liberal Jewish groups in the US in flagging up concern, with some saying the law amounted to “apartheid”....It also strips Arabic of its designation as an official language alongside Hebrew, downgrading it to a “special status”...“The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment.“...Some of the strongest language was used by the head of the Israeli Arab Joint List group of parties, Aymen Odyah..He added: “[The Knesset] has passed a law of Jewish supremacy and told us that we will always be second-class citizens.”...the legal centre for Arab minority rights in Israel, called the law an attempt to advance “ethnic superiority by promoting racist policies”.'- The Guardian

And meanwhile the leaders of the Christian churches in Israel have been publicly condemning the Israeli government for unfair treatment of Christians.

'The heads of Jerusalem’s major churches—including its Catholic, Greek Orthodox and Lutheran denominations, among others—criticized Israel’s lawmakers and its courts following a ruling that mandates the sale of church buildings to a Jewish settler organization...The church leaders protested the transfer of the ownership of three church buildings belonging to the Greek Orthodox Church in Jerusalem’s Old City to the Ateret Cohanim Association. They also put themselves in direct opposition to a bill which would make all church land sold to private citizens the property of the state....“We see in these actions a systematic attempt to undermine the integrity of the Holy City of Jerusalem and the Holy Land, and to weaken the Christian presence,” the statement from the church leaders read.'- Newsweek

And we haven't even touched on the day to day treatment of Palestinians by the Israeli government or the death toll on the Palestinian side versus the Israeli (even higher if you include alongside military casualties all those who have died from sickness or disease brought on by the increasingly horrendous conditions behind the wall).


Comparing Israel, or Trump for that matter, to Nazis might not be subtle rhetoric, but nor does it instantly mean you are saying they want to stuff folk in gas chambers or prescribe to following a Nazi doctrine. The Nazis didn't start out like that, they started out spreading lies about other groups of people, allocating blame for societies woes to them, then segregation- all with public blessing and enshrined in legality and law.

There is a legitimate case to be made that Israel has slipped into following some worryingly similar trends of late under its current regime.

The idea that anyone associated with Labour in the UK cannot make such criticisms without instant censure and being kicked out their job I find exceptionally worrying. }}}

the whole thing stinks. I want to know who is behind all this, I bet if you traced it back there would be some right wing rich powerful people who own a lot of the media outlets, and are using this to get rid of a possible Corbyn government. this always surfaces when the Tories are collapsing, which is odd. Soon anyone who dares to criticise Netanyahu will be called anti-Semitic. its barking mad and needs quashing. As for that bitter harridan Hodge screaming abuse, and she is supposed to be in the right? what is really worrying are the three Jewish newspapers who have declared war on Corbyn. wheres the evidence?, wheres the proof?, just give us a shred of proof ffs? there is as yet zero proof Corbyn is a racist, its madness. I reckon because the actual government is now so weak and democracy is now just a joke, all these people with axes to grind come out of the woodwork and are not challenged.

Am I correct in thinking that the first day after we officially leave the EU is April 1st? seems kinda fitting somehow, though it doesn't strike me as an especially funny prank...

{{That sounds about right Mailck, and it is kind of suitable in a really black humour kind of way!  }}

yep ironic.

'Liam Fox says the chance of a no-deal Brexit is growing, blaming the "intransigence" of the European Commission.
The international trade secretary and Brexiteer put the chance of failing to come to an agreement at "60-40".'- BBC

{{So the no deal the government said they did not want at the start is pretty much now the option they are pushing as the most likely! That should go well-

'the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, warned that the possibility of a no deal was "uncomfortably high."
Mr Carney said that if a no-deal Brexit were to happen, it would mean disruption to trade and economic activity, as well as higher prices for a period of time.'

Oh good! If I have to pay more for everything without any change in my wages then I'm fucked frankly. I'm already uncomfortably close every month to only breaking even, much more and I'll be ending every month on a minus figure! How the hell did we get from my dad's generation where 1 full time working adult could earn a wage enough to support a family of four and save for a holiday every year and a night out most weeks to it needing at least 2 people working full time just to pay the basics and scrape by? And a no-deal Brexit will only make that even worse }}

Agreed Petty, our parents the Boomers had it good but a lot of Boomers seem to be living in cloud cuckooland and prepared to begin the gammon apocalypse. The kids today wont stand a chance of having a lifelong job, security, or a home, let alone 4 kids. They will all have to retire at 70 with a tiny pension. its like going back to the 70s before we joined the EU, but this time with crap music  we will be the poor man of Europe again.

{{ The govt published their first list of 'notes' on what to do in the event of a no-deal Brexit (which seems increasingly likely).

First the context- here is what various groups have warned of if there is a no deal-

The Hospital and Ambulance service in England warned  'of possible "stockpiles and shortages of medicines and medical devices"'

The police warned of increased risk to the public if they lose access to the eu criminal database.

The farmers union said many farms could be on the brink of collapse if there is no deal and cost of trade with the Eu increases.

The Head of the Bank of England called a no-deal "highly undesirable"

and the Foreign Sectary of the government itself said a no-deal could cause a "fissure in relations between European allies that would take a generation to heal"

On the other side pro-Brexiteers like Mogg claim, "the UK has nothing to fear from leaving without a trade deal and falling back on WTO rules."
With Mogg himself saying that it 'would suffice' and that the other claims about a no deal are just to scare folk and are 'absurdly overstated'.

So that's context here's what the government announced today-

• The cost of card payments between the UK and EU will "likely increase" and won't be covered by a ban on surcharges
  
• Business trading with the EU should start planning for new customs checks, and might have to pay for new software or logistical help
  
• Britons living elsewhere in Europe could lose access to UK banking and pension services without EU action
  
• A licence might be needed to import nuclear materials from the EU
  
• The UK would continue to accept medicines that have been tested in the EU to ensure a smooth supply
  

Now it seems to me that even if the anti-Brexit claims are as Mogg says 'absurdly overstated' I still dont see anything  here which could possibly be called a positive. In every are we'd be in a worse position with the rest of Europe than we currently are. This is just a big list of downsides far as I can tell we are being warned are coming.

This I think gets the heart of the problem with referendum versus the role of Parliament.
The job of Parliament is to legislate in the best interests of the nation. Passing a law through that seems so obviously not in the best interests of the nation is the exact opposite of what they are paid to do.

But having given it to the people as a referendum they now feel obliged to fulfil that, regardless of its in the best interests of the nation or not.

With the big irony here being folk like Mogg argue for leaving the EU on the basis of sovereignty for Parliament- a sovereignty they would be neglecting entirely by carrying through a policy that damages the nation.

And this list of advice from the government is just the first release, there are plenty more to come!  }}

{{{ Brexit is going well! For those not keeping up here's a summing up of the current state of play- everything is fucked!

Ok slightly more detail.

May is sticking to her Chequers plan- the one that a chunk of her cabinet resigned over and say gives everything to Brussels. May is also saying that having a second referendum on the deal would be a 'betrayal of democracy', not quite sure how giving people a vote on something is anti-democratic, but there you go.
Meanwhile Brussels are saying that the Chequers plan is unacceptable to the EU as it would mean 'the end of the Single Market' and in-particular won't accept the separation of services and goods, ' if we let the British pick the raisins out of our rules, that would have serious consequences'
And to cap it all off Boris is howling from the sidelines from a tabloid column undermining May at every turn, saying today that her plan was that, "The UK has agreed to hand over £40bn of taxpayers' money for two-thirds of diddly squat."and that  "the inevitable outcome is a victory for the EU, with the UK lying flat on the canvas and 12 stars circling symbolically over our semi-conscious head." and rounded off his attack by declaring that May  had "gone into battle with the white flag fluttering over our leading tank". (thats Boris for you, throw in what he thinks is a working person phrase like diddly-squat to his tabloid column for the masses, that no one has used in a generation, a boxing metaphor to keep his street cred up with some noble sporting allusion that can be shared with the lower classes but is not so common as football but not as noble and exclusive as horse racing, and round it of with a patriotic image alluding to British military greatness undercut and betrayed with the idea of May going to Europe and surrendering like Chamberlain.)

So yeah, still on track for this to be a complete hopeless disaster! Hurrah! We'll show Johnny Foreigner that Britain can cut of its own nose to spite its face! }}}

Thanks for the summary Petty! It's helpful to know I'm not the only one scratching his head.
As I'm trying to figure out just exactly what's happening right now with our own trade policies, and  where it's going to hit us the hardest, I can't help but remember Trump boasting two years ago that he was "Mr Brexit". It looks like he meant it.

{{{It's now looking like some of the promised financial aid may actually be coming our direction, but in the form of assistance developing new markets after they've burned the bridges to all our old ones.  Interesting strategy.... }}}

The sooner brexit goes tits up the better. then we can get rid of the lot of them.

We are totally fucked aren't we?

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/09/20/europe/brexit-salzburg-theresa-may-summit-intl/index.html

We are totally fucked aren't we?-Malick

{{Its looking like a hard brexit, which despite its name isn't a 1970's porn film starring Ron Jeremy, though to nick a quote, it will probably still fuck us as hard as him, but with considerably less warmth.

May insists its her Chequers plan or no way at all, half her party say 'well no way then' and now the EU have said no way to her plan too, but for exactly the opposite reasons.
Even if there is a deal at this late stage its going to be a botched patched up mess at best. }}

I am applying to become a dual Italian citizen. It takes about 2 years and costs £200, but its worth it.
Even though its more hopeful thanks to the brilliant Kier Starmer. He really should be the next Labour leader.

Mrs Figg wrote:I am applying to become a dual Italian citizen. It takes about 2 years and costs £200, but its worth it.
Even though its more hopeful thanks to the brilliant Kier Starmer. He really should be the next Labour leader.

And then you can vote against populism twice. Bravo, I say!

A foot in each camp ? good move, calzone & chips ? a pickled onion with your Barolo ?

" Myra Hindley is to babysitting"

I do love this guy. For all the witty lines & sarcasm he's not a daft fellow by any means.