UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

I was just thinking that the other day. for ONCE in her life she should make her opinions felt, I think it would make all the difference if she was to say that she is worried about brexit. I know she has no political power nor should she get involved with politics, but this is an emergency.

There's a lot of things Queenie doesnt speak of. I also think she should voice her thoughts once in a blue moon.She was tight lipped over Diana's demise, tight lipped over the riots during the thatcher years, tight lipped about too many things, that, for me is why I have no respect for her or faith in her.

Is a monarch like a spare tire then- something you carry around for years on the off-chance your parliament goes flat?
{{'cause I think i'm hearing a hissing noise...... }}

exactly now's the time for a monarch to take back control now there's nobody to stop her.

They are all too busy turning the UK into a bananas republic.

Not sure how likely a Labour Party split really is but the fact that it's even in the conversation speaks volumes about where UK politics is in the aftermath of the referendum.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-party-assets-owns-jeremy-corbyn-leadership-a7121961.html

Ironically the Labour party has bolloxed up this country more than the Tories ever could. first Iraq and then Blair ignored the collapse of working class dignity while he was entertaining Bono. now there's IS and a feral English underclass. great work chaps. its no wonder Corbyn is hanging on for dear life, he is literally the death rattle of the Labour movement. He tried to turn back the tide to a time before Blair but its too late the damage is done.

{{{{Goves out the Tory leadership contest- he who wields the knife rarely gets crowned, and he wielded it twice in quick devastating succession- so its down to the last two which means our next PM is a woman- either Theresa May or Andrea Leadsom. My money is on May but these days who can really say what the buggery is going on in our politics? }}}}

It has to be May, the other one is a loony.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{{{ so its down to the last two which means our next PM is a woman- either Theresa May or Andrea Leadsom. }}}}

That might be a good change. Based on all the chest-thumping we've seen, I think an argument could be made that testosterone played a part in all we've seen (even more so with Trump, bragging about the size of his "hands" and such )

{{{Um, or last female PM was Thatcher}}}

You want that we send Sarah Palin your way?

Hey! I didn't say that estrogen didn't carry it's own risks!

Mrs Figg wrote:It has to be May, the other one is a loony.

I'd never even heard of Leadsom until a couple weeks ago. It's gotta be May, right? I guess this could be a test of how Eurosceptic the Conservative membership is, as opposed to Conservative-leaning voters as a whole.

{{Well they are both on the right of the party- but May has way more experience in government departments- and she has lasted years at the Home Office which is infamous as the graveyard of Ministers. She is pretty hard line.
But Leadsom is also religious so I hope its not her, last religious leader we had was deluded messianic Blair, we don't need another PM who thinks an invisible super being is telling them what to do.
I will be very surprised if it is her- I have so far assumed she is put up candidate not meant to win, her job was to make sure the vote on the eurosceptic right was split enough between candidates to keep May in and put Gove out. }}}

So let's recap:

Leaver campaigners thought the EU was undemocratic, dictatorial and too centralised, it will be more so if the UK signs up to a Norway style deal and become part of schengen with even less say on how regulations are made, no power over E.U freedom of movement and a Tory dominated goverment leaning heavily towards the right, the Leave voters overwhelmingily stated mass immigration as one of their key concerns, if we want access to the single market we'll almost certainly have to accept it, with even less control and none of the opt out we had as members of the E.U.

Some immigrants or descents of immigrants from old colonies or members of the commonwealth (India, West Indies etc) now holding British passports voted to leave as a protest vote against tighter commonwealth immigration laws, now we are seeing increased reports of racially motivated assaults etc.

Working class and rural areas of England and Wales voted to leave, as a protest vote against Westminster and big business now they're going to get hit by consequences the hardest without the beneficial injections of E.U funding and workplace legislation that can be overturned at will by a Tory dominated goverment, some demand the UK Goverment promises the same amount of money they had under E.U funding, whilst the Goverment is too busy trying to implement the brexit anyway, and with the UK likely heading for budget cuts across the board and a likely recession, these areas could be hit even harder.

Many Leave campaigners were emphasizing NHS issues and funding, now we've learnt the promised £350 million a week was a ludicrous fabrication and there is talk of many NHS EU workers considering leaving making the situation worse.

Leavers said "what could possibly go wrong with economy?", now the pound is at a thirty year low and falling, the stock market is in disarray, investors are retreating, companies freezing hiring, 700000 less jobs are advertised across the UK than last year, and there is talk of many financial companies making plans to move from London the source of most of the UK's wealth and one of the most pro e.u parts of the country.

The Referendum was (supposedly) supposed to bring more political stability and settle the matter once and for all, now both ruling and opposition parties are in unprecedented chaos, a majority of M.P's were staunchly pro-e.u and a majority of the public rejected the message, big schisms between classes and politicians, Westminister and local goverment and even different areas of the country have appeared.

Leavers wanted "more control", now they're losing control and also possibly half the country with Scotland likely to exit (causing more financial strive across the E.U and U.K) and the position in Northern Ireland looking more precarious than it has done for years, the possibility of a solid border and high security border controls between N an S Ireland once more could have serious repercussions across the island...

And most tragic of all Britain, the country that colonized half the world is now on the path to xenophobia driven isolation in the face of increasing globalization, a United Kingdom may well implode upon itself and become once again little england on its own...

But hey, at least Cameron'as gone...

May is serious and seems sensible, the other one is supported by fascists. Britain First, so...

{{That about sums it up Malick- though if Scotland can vote to leave before the UK exit and get successor state status that would help in stability for Scotland and the EU, especially if NI and Gibraltar are part of the deal. Just England and Wales that would be really screwed after that, and indeed on their own. }}}

Mrs Figg wrote:May is serious and seems sensible, the other one is supported by fascists. Britain First, so...

Yeah May is definitely the better choice, if what's her face gets into power

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{That about sums it up Malick- though if Scotland can vote to leave before the UK exit and get successor state status that would help in stability for Scotland and the EU, especially if NI and Gibraltar are part of the deal. Just England and Wales that would be really screwed after that, and indeed on their own. }}}

Yeah, but would the UK Goverment agree to let Scotland hold an indy ref before Article 50 is triggered, and I doubt the UK would agree to Scotland having sucessort status? The Civil surface will already be basically imploding under the weight of brexiting, trying to detatch Scotland at the same time would be a complete clusterf*ck of stress and effort, it would damage the economy even more.

I'm actually inclined to think if you wait till after Article 50 is trigged 'Yes' will get more support anyway, either way I expect some of the more hardarsed Tories to try and block a second Indy ref for as long as possible.

As for N.I, I guarantee there are still loyalists who would stay with the UK no matter the cost...and some of them will have access to weaponry...

would the UK Government agree to let Scotland hold an indy ref before Article 50 is triggered, and I doubt the UK would agree to Scotland having successor status? - Malick

{{{I am not sure they can stop it- the SNP will hold the referendum anyway and let the Uk government try to hold out against the result and global judgement.
As to successor status- well the government argument previously was if Scotland left the UK it left the EU and so RUK was automatically the successor state, seems to follow to me that if RUK leave the EU and we dont, we are likewise automatically the successor state by their own logic.

NI is a nightmare prospect either way ahead now as far as I can see- either leaving the UK to unify and Loyalists take up arms, or put a border up between north and south and good chance the Republicans will take up arms again.}}}

Leave voters might be in for a shock, they are riding high right now, but they are going to be sorely disappointed by when the next General Election comes around.

If the new Prime Minister doesn't trigger article 50 (political suicide), or goes for the EEA option (which is very similar to staying in the EU, but with hardly any representation), then Leave voters are going to be furious that their will has been frustrated, and we'll see an endless circle of calls for more sovereignty etc.

If the new PM does trigger article 50 (suicide for the UK in its present form), then the UK will be in complete economic meltdown. Many Employers and younger citizens will be running to get out of the country as quickly as possible, we may well see a net decrease in the number of immigrants coming here, but there will be less jobs and money to go round for all anyway.

The tabloids will find some way of blaming the EU anyway, or ripping into whoever is unfortunate enough to hold a cabinet job at the time, many of the right leaning media will accuse the escapees from Britain of being 'traitors', if Scotland does manage to extract itself relatively quickly and painlessly, many commentators in the UK will be tempted to pin the blame on them for causing more uncertainty, failing to realize that good relations between an independent (but economically unstable) Scotland and a diminished, divided UK would be to the mutual benefit of all.

Either way, the far right will have a field day, blaming anyone they can and getting angry like they love doing...then the realization will hit them...

Pettytyrant101 wrote:
{{{I am not sure they can stop it- the SNP will hold the referendum anyway and let the Uk government try to hold out against the result and global judgement.
As to successor status- well the government argument previously was if Scotland left the UK it left the EU and so RUK was automatically the successor state, seems to follow to me that if RUK leave the EU and we dont, we are likewise automatically the successor state by their own logic.

I see you point, but aren't the econmic arguments even worse than they were in 2014?, and it seems to me the UK government could just make the argument that Scotland voted in 2014 with the knowledge they'd have to reapply to the E.U in the result of indepedence, but they also voted to remain with the knowledge they might have been pulled out anyway...and I seriously doubt Whitehall would even have the resources at hand to decouple two unions at the same time, god knows what it would do to the British economy (on both sides of the argument...).

NI is a nightmare prospect either way ahead now as far as I can see- either leaving the UK to unify and Loyalists take up arms, or put a border up between north and south and good chance the Republicans will take up arms again.}}}

Ireland can't afford to unify for the forseeable future, but the UK will not accept an open border at their backdoor, so I guess Ireland is once again getting f*cked over by England

the leavers have destroyed the UK for generations to come, its a shame the remainers have to suffer because of it.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jul/03/parliament-must-decide-whether-or-not-to-leave-the-eu-say-lawyers

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/05/deadline-approaches-government-response-brexit-legal-challenge-article-50

surely if every law firm in the country mired the GVT down for years with threats of legal action, we could scupper article 50?

Mrs Figg wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/law/2016/jul/03/parliament-must-decide-whether-or-not-to-leave-the-eu-say-lawyers

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jul/05/deadline-approaches-government-response-brexit-legal-challenge-article-50

surely if every law firm in the country mired the GVT down for years with threats of legal action, we could scupper article 50?

I suppose you could make that argument, but surely that would just prove once more that the Goverment was ignoring the wishes of the public? i think a large proportion of the leave vote was a protest vote, but even so that would prove they are fed up not being listened to...