Waiting for 'The Battle of the Five Armies' [2]

I was having an interesting conversation elsewhere about the possibility of a film based on the second age. This was through the Tolkien society and there are a few Tolkien scholars who actually think WB might try and make it happen, by using appendices material and info in LOTR  to make it happen. I'm not really a fan of the idea unless they can come up with a solid story to build the film from. The mention of  Numenor  was a big part of the conversation.o

Since the Hobbit the BO5A  is WB  last hurrah into middle earth that we know of, does anyone else think they might possibly try something like this? I mean there are enough people out there who simply want more middle earth. ( I am mixed on the idea only if Jackson is no longer involved and they can create a cohesive story from sources that are available to them)

As for this being the last hobbit film in theaters, it really doesn't bother me, after all I usually watch LOTR, and all the behind the scenes footage twice a year. Once in April on my son's birthday, and once on Thanksgiving day. The Hobbit I put it on just for noise around the house but rarely stop to get glued to the TV like I do with LOTR. I still find the making of footage rather interesting but the films themselves don't hold that special place in my heart like LOTR does. Maybe once all 6 films are on blueray  I'll watch them from the hobbit thru LOTR at least 1 time. Although I can't guarantee I won't ff  through parts of the Hobbit.

I dont see how you could do the story of Numenor just from the appendices.
Tolkien wrote quite a lot on various bits of Numenorean history elsewhere, and the problem with not having rights to that stuff is not just that you cant use it, but that whatever you come up with has to be completely different from it to avoid any accusations and law suits.
And if you have to make up the story and just string it onto the broad events you may as well make a film about Atlantis instead, other wise you end up with TH.

I'm a little sad about the end of The Hobbit movies because of what they represent far more than anything about the films themselves.  It's the end of an era, it's making me saying goodbye to something that was a big part of my childhood.  It's also going to change what it's like being part of the online Tolkien fandom, which is something that has ended up being a pretty big part of my young adulthood in its own right, even as I've become less obsessive about the books and films themselves.

Sinister71 wrote:I was having an interesting conversation elsewhere about the possibility of a film based on the second age. This was through the Tolkien society and there are a few Tolkien scholars who actually think WB might try and make it happen, by using appendices material and info in LOTR  to make it happen. I'm not really a fan of the idea unless they can come up with a solid story to build the film from. The mention of  Numenor  was a big part of the conversation.

I've seen this idea floated a couple of times, but I'm not sure it would work.  There are a number of things alluded to briefly in the Appendices that are fleshed out in greater detail elsewhere, as Petty mentions, and the big question is whether the Tolkien Estate would take legal action if it looked like filmmakers were dipping into off-limits sources.  So far they seem to have turned a blind eye towards PJ and Co's occasional borrowing from Unfinished Tales and the like, but that's probably because said borrowing is limited to general inspiration more than actual lines or plot elements.  I do wonder if the Estate would have done anything if Gandalf had used the Blue Wizards names in AUJ. But I can't imagine that they would stand by and allow a Silmarillion movie that used elements from the posthumous works (so basically, any recognizable Silmarillion movie).  A far greater percentage of the extant Numenor material can be found in the Appendices, but that's largely because there's such a paucity of material about Numenor to begin with.  I don't think that it's really famous or popular enough to attract studio financing either, despite Helge Fauskanger's best efforts.

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/num-intro.htm

I'd say the Akallabêth, and the whole capture of Sauron and subsequent fall of Numenor, would probably be the most relatable part of the Numenor history, and that is covered both in the appendices and the Silmarillion.

Having seen what Jackson and co did with the Hobbit though, I don't think I want to see what they can make out of two appendices pages.

Eldorion wrote:I don't think that it's really famous or popular enough to attract studio financing either

No, and I'd say the same. They would need to sell it as some kind of Silmarillion movie to capture the public conciousness. That said, we do have this "Fantastic Beasts" triology coming up, so what do I know.

Eldorion wrote:

Sinister71 wrote:I was having an interesting conversation elsewhere about the possibility of a film based on the second age. This was through the Tolkien society and there are a few Tolkien scholars who actually think WB might try and make it happen, by using appendices material and info in LOTR  to make it happen. I'm not really a fan of the idea unless they can come up with a solid story to build the film from. The mention of  Numenor  was a big part of the conversation.

I've seen this idea floated a couple of times, but I'm not sure it would work.  There are a number of things alluded to briefly in the Appendices that are fleshed out in greater detail elsewhere, as Petty mentions, and the big question is whether the Tolkien Estate would take legal action if it looked like filmmakers were dipping into off-limits sources.  So far they seem to have turned a blind eye towards PJ and Co's occasional borrowing from Unfinished Tales and the like, but that's probably because said borrowing is limited to general inspiration more than actual lines or plot elements.  I do wonder if the Estate would have done anything if Gandalf had used the Blue Wizards names in AUJ. But I can't imagine that they would stand by and allow a Silmarillion movie that used elements from the posthumous works (so basically, any recognizable Silmarillion movie).  A far greater percentage of the extant Numenor material can be found in the Appendices, but that's largely because there's such a paucity of material about Numenor to begin with.  I don't think that it's really famous or popular enough to attract studio financing either, despite Helge Fauskanger's best efforts.

http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/num-intro.htm

Honestly I think if a film maker went to the Tolkien estate in a completely different manner than Jackson did, and actually discussed having their involvement from start to finish something could be worked out. Jackson from the way it sounds went in and told them what he was going to do. Any filmaker other than Jackson might stand a chance if he is humble and talented enough. But I think a good film maker who was willing to work with the estate would have better luck. If that could happen I think a couple good film may be able to come from it. But I would assume they would have to be independent films since I can't see a major studio letting the estate have that much control. Honestly I would do it just because I would want that creative input into the project.

No more... by Eru, please make it stop! When I was young(er) in the 70s (not the 1870s), I used to dream about a live action film based on The Lord of the Rings.

What a foolish youth I was...

... although I still think 1980s Joyce Penelope Wilhelmina Frankenberg (look her up) would have made a far far better Arwen than Liv Tyler...

... under my direction of course.

Sinister71 wrote:Honestly I think if a film maker went to the Tolkien estate in a completely different manner than Jackson did, and actually discussed having their involvement from start to finish something could be worked out. Jackson from the way it sounds went in and told them what he was going to do. Any filmaker other than Jackson might stand a chance if he is humble and talented enough. But I think a good film maker who was willing to work with the estate would have better luck. If that could happen I think a couple good film may be able to come from it. But I would assume they would have to be independent films since I can't see a major studio letting the estate have that much control. Honestly I would do it just because I would want that creative input into the project.

I'm not sure we know if PJ even talked to the Estate at all until after pre-production on the films was underway.  PJ wanted to adapt The Hobbit and LOTR when he was beginning the project in the late '90s, and the Estate has never held the rights to either of those (since they were sold by JRRT before his death).  PJ had to get permission from Saul Zaentz (and sought permission from MGM, but that fell through, which is why he didn't do The Hobbit 15 years ago) and had to court studio support to pay for the movies, but he didn't have to get the Estate's blessing.  I have no idea if anyone in the Estate resented that or not, but I don't think it's fair to hold that against PJ when he had enough on his plate trying to get the people who actually had a say to sign off on the project without hacking it down to one two hour film or something like that (which nearly happened, but for PJ's tenacity).

Eldorion wrote:

Sinister71 wrote:Honestly I think if a film maker went to the Tolkien estate in a completely different manner than Jackson did, and actually discussed having their involvement from start to finish something could be worked out. Jackson from the way it sounds went in and told them what he was going to do. Any filmaker other than Jackson might stand a chance if he is humble and talented enough. But I think a good film maker who was willing to work with the estate would have better luck. If that could happen I think a couple good film may be able to come from it. But I would assume they would have to be independent films since I can't see a major studio letting the estate have that much control. Honestly I would do it just because I would want that creative input into the project.

I'm not sure we know if PJ even talked to the Estate at all until after pre-production on the films was underway.  PJ wanted to adapt The Hobbit and LOTR when he was beginning the project in the late '90s, and the Estate has never held the rights to either of those (since they were sold by JRRT before his death).  PJ had to get permission from Saul Zaentz (and sought permission from MGM, but that fell through, which is why he didn't do The Hobbit 15 years ago) and had to court studio support to pay for the movies, but he didn't have to get the Estate's blessing.  I have no idea if anyone in the Estate resented that or not, but I don't think it's fair to hold that against PJ when he had enough on his plate trying to get the people who actually had a say to sign off on the project without hacking it down to one two hour film or something like that (which nearly happened, but for PJ's tenacity).

Yeah I'm not sure when Jackson talked to the Tolkien estate, I just remember reading it over at TORn a long time ago. That he did meet with them but wouldn't relinquish any of his control to have their creative input. Something I personally feel was a mistake. Honestly I think it would be nice to see the Tolkien estate maybe produce something on their own. It's not like they wouldn't be able to raise the money needed, or be able to hire the people they need. Hell even WETA is for hire for that matter. Something like that could hold promise.

I can't recall the Estate ever publicly expressing an interest in producing films.  That seems like something that would be highly out of character for them.  Christopher has steadfastly refused to turn his father's more fragmentary stories into full novels (this came up when The Children of Hurin was published, and the answer to the question of whether there would be any more was an emphatic "no").  He left The Silmarillion in outline form because to go into greater detail would require too much authorial intrusion, and even then he second-guessed a lot of his editorial decisions years later.  Adapting the First Age stories to film would require even greater changes and "intrusions".

Their opinion on that might change though.

Though I guess that just leads us back to the whole question of movie rights and JRR Tolkiens stipulations for his estate.

It's good to remember that the estate does not own the movie right to the Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings. So, we'll see no productions based on those books from them. So, it would have to be a production based on his other works.

Christopher became more strict about faithfulness to his father's texts over time, and I suspect that the movies and their (perceived) cultural displacement effect will have further disillusioned most of the Tolkien family members who are involved with the Estate from the idea of working with Hollywood.

And I don't think the Estate has $100-200 million just lying around to finance a SFX-heavy movie on their own.  Most of the money they bring in from royalties every year gets donated to charity through the semi-separate Tolkien Trust.

Problem is Christopher is very particular (and rightly so) that the integrity of both the deeper underlying mythic message shis father included are preserved as well as the, to him, just as important scholarly side to the work.
The LotR's is not just a fiction book. Its an example of all Tolkiens professional knowledge in linguists, myth and legend. In that sense its a sort of academic work from a Professor at the top of his field in his day. Its Tolkiens definitive take on what constitutes the elements of myth done as example.

PJ of course had no truck with that last part especially, his version pays no heed at all to LotR's academic credentials. And I think that in particular really rankled with Christopher.

That will rankle anyone who felt insulted by a lesser minded individual

Yeah, I don't think the Estate is heading in that direction either. It's an interesting thought though that Sinister brought up, the Estate going about making their own adaptation. Even if it's just hypothesizing for the sake of it.  

I think, while Jackson obviously didn't go about adapting Tolkien's work in a sense that was true to its spirit, that the LotRs and the Hobbit are more self contained and therefore better suited for adaption. While Tolkien's other published work, as Eldo said, are more fragmentary in nature and adaptation would require an authorial effort on behalf of the adapter, and allowing anyone such creative control over his fathers work is definitely not something Christopher is open to. And after the experience they've had with Jackson probably something the Estate ever would be open to.

And.. yeah. What Eldo said.

And I guess that's probably for the best.

Sinister71 wrote:
Honestly I think if a film maker went to the Tolkien estate in a completely different manner than Jackson did, and actually discussed having their involvement from start to finish something could be worked out. Jackson from the way it sounds went in and told them what he was going to do. Any filmaker other than Jackson might stand a chance if he is humble and talented enough. But I think a good film maker who was willing to work with the estate would have better luck. If that could happen I think a couple good film may be able to come from it. But I would assume they would have to be independent films since I can't see a major studio letting the estate have that much control. Honestly I would do it just because I would want that creative input into the project.

I don't think this would ever be likely, especially not now, a filmmaker might be willing to work with the estate, but I doubt the estate would feel comfortable working with them. The Tolkien estate showed no interest (as far as I am aware) in the Rankin Bass/Bakshi films, and had no inclination to authorize their own adaptations of the stories in the years before Jackson's films (Didn't Christopher Tolkien make a comment that in his personal view, the books were unsuitable for visual dramatic adaptation?), though Christopher Tolkien did give his blessing to the 1981 BBC radio play (I think), the way I see it he takes his role as Literay executor too seriously to be an impartial advisor on a project of this magnitude (which in all likelihood, the Estate could neither spare the time, or resources to work on), and given the Tolkien estate is currently engaged in an ongoing lawsuit with the financiers (or rights holders I forget which) of the current adaptions, any attempt by them to make their own versions of the story could be seen as 'cashing in' and ironically taking advantage of the success of the current films (not to mention risking further lawsuits). The films are very popular with casual audiences who have little interest in the books, I don't see an 'authorised' truer to the source version, made outside the Hollywood system having the same effect.The Estate's purpose isn't to make money, it is too guard Tolkien's literay legacy int he way they feel most approriate, given Tolkien's own feelings towards adaptations, and the dubious, fragmentary (and rather niche market) nature of the pothunous publications, any future adaptations will have to tread on rather careful ground, the amount of scrutiny they will be subjected to is probably not worth the effort from there perspective.


Possibly stupid question, but given the screen rights were sold away, can the Estate/publishers even legally make their own version for commercial distribution?


I realise I come across as a crabbit member of the 'anti-all adaptations' police, but I just don't think this is feasible any time soon.

My question is: if even the author himself/herself is involved in the film version (Potter) or show (Thrones)... who really has the power of ultimate say? In the Tolkien scenario I would think it would be the director/producers/rights holders of the film, not anyone from the Estate...

... which seems to me to mean that Christopher Tolkien -- only within the theoretical scenario that he even thought a film adaptation of The Children of Hurin 'could' work, for example -- could desire a film version that's very different from what 'Hollywood' wants or thinks would work... but then (I imagine) the filmmakers get to slap (something like) 'Christopher Tolkien helped' on the final product, even if he really only had minimal influence.

GRRM seems happy with the people he allowed to do GOT, and he is involved in some measure too (even writing one episode a year so far). But even this appears to be the result of good fortune according to Martin himself, along with his judgement in picking this team of course.

Again in theory, I think it would be a clash of what some might call an 'art film' (if I were forced to guess at the desire of the Estate) versus some Hollywood blockbuster, and unless CJRT were to be given real power to make sure that his desired film was made... there seems little reason to get involved in the first place.

CJRT (or maybe Adam Tolkien) would be lending 'the Tolkien name' to a project that wasn't really his to control, just his to possibly affect in 'some measure'.

Or no?

Elthir wrote:Plus, my question is: if even the author himself/herself is involved in the film version (Potter) or show (Thrones)... who really has the power of ultimate say? In the Tolkien scenario I would think it would be the director/producers/rights holders of the film, not anyone from the Estate...

Hmm...good question!. I know on Potter Rowling was an executive producer on DH films, and did have some major input into the casting, but I think she reached an understanding that she would 'advise' on the films (someone approached Her for the rights, she didn't sell them), rather than seek credit. If the rights were to lapse or be sold to another company it would be for an astronomical price, I couldn't see anyone going to the Estate knowing knowing they could probably make more profit on their own terms.

.. which seems to me to mean that Christopher Tolkien -- only within the theoretical scenario that he even thought a film adaptation of The Children of Hurin 'could' work, for example -- could desire a film that's very different from what 'Hollywood' wants or thinks would work... but then (I imagine) the filmmakers get to slap (something like) 'Christopher Tolkien helped' on the final product, even if he really only had minimal influence

I think by this point the Estate would know how studios work, and would likely make the conditions of any sale rather straight forward in their favour, it seems clear they aren't out to make bucketful of cash, but it would depend on whether another adaptation could be seen as beneficial.

GRRM seem happy with the people he allowed to do GOT... okay, and he is involved in some measure too (even writing one episode a year so far). But even this appears to be the result of good fortune according to Martin himself, along with his judgement in picking this team of course

He has the obvious advantage of being alive to voice his own personal opinion (I think he actually started out as TV writer), whereas C.Tolkien etc are working from guesses and personal conversations with an author 40 years dead, if they haven't made a move by now, I can't see they making one anytime soon

Again in theory, I think it would be a clash of what some might call an 'art film' (desire of the Estate) versus some Hollywood blockbuster, and unless CJRT were to be given real power to make sure that his desired film was made... there seems little reason to get involved in the first place.

Exactly there isn't any advantage at the moment as far as I can see.

CJRT (or maybe Adam Tolkien) would be lending 'the Tolkien name' to a project that wasn't really his to control, just his to possibly affect in 'some measure'

Or no?

Time will tell, you should probably have a look at this thread, me Eldo and Blue have had quite an interesting argument about this recently:

http://www.hobbitmovieforum.com/t37-filming-possibilities

I think by this point the Estate would know how studios work, and would likely make the conditions of any sale rather straight forward in their favour, it seems clear they aren't out to make bucketful of cash, but it would depend on whether another adaptation could be seen as beneficial.

Yes I didn't mean to imply CJRT or the Estate were ignorant about this... just that they would want real power I would think... but so would the filmmakers! I would also think. And in the event (a what if scenario) that they had ever said 'yes, you can consult us for The Lord of the Rings...' I think they knew that that would only go so far, and this would likely hold with The Children of Hurin too, or something.

Elthir wrote: GRRM seem happy with the people he allowed to do GOT... okay, and he is involved in some measure too (even writing one episode a year so far). But even this appears to be the result of good fortune according to Martin himself, along with his judgement in picking this team of course

He has the obvious advantage of being alive to voice his own personal opinion (I think he actually started out as TV writer), whereas C. Tolkien etc are working from guesses and personal conversations with an author 40 years dead, if they haven't made a move by now, I can't see they making one anytime soon.

Well yes it's not JRRT himself here of course but it comes down to what CJRT thinks the film should be in essence and in detail... and the point is, I'm not even sure GRRM has that kind of 'power', it's just that he made a (so far) fortunate decision as far as picking a team and 'faithfulness' is concerned.

Exactly there isn't any advantage at the moment as far as I can see.

I agree. Now I suppose it's possible in general that there are filmmakers who would want to make an adaptation that merges nicely with CJRT's desire... heh, again within the theory that Christopher Tolkien even thinks 'something' of his father's is suitable for film in the first place.

But lots of things are 'possible'  

I think we will simply have to wait as see what happens after C.Tolkien eventually passes on (not anytime soon I hope), by that point the Estate and the fanbase will have had to time to reassess how, and what to expect from any future films.

I don't think any of the stuff is really suitable for faithful adaptation to film anyway, but The Lay of Leithian could make a rather bonkers-yet-brilliant stage show...

malickfan wrote:Possibly stupid question, but given the screen rights were sold away, can the Estate/publishers even legally make their own version for commercial distribution?

I can't imagine that the Estate would be able to.  I don't pretend to be an expert on copyright law, but I think the sale of the rights would have to have some sort of exclusivity agreement, otherwise it's not really worth it for the purchaser.  And we know that the rights are indefinite.  New Line will see their license revert to Saul Zaentz if they don't make new films regularly enough, but Zaentz is the owner of the rights, period.

Elthir wrote:My question is: if even the author himself/herself is involved in the film version (Potter) or show (Thrones)... who really has the power of ultimate say? In the Tolkien scenario I would think it would be the director/producers/rights holders of the film, not anyone from the Estate...

The ultimate say belongs with the filmmakers (or in truth, the producers) unless there is some clause in the original contract that puts limitations on what an adaptation can go.  I'm pretty sure Rowling insisted that the HP films be made with a British and Irish cast (except for characters who were supposed to be from other countries, like the Beaxbatons and Durmstrang delegations in Goblet of Fire).  But otherwise, the filmmakers were not bound to follow her advice, although they often did; for example, removing a reference to Dumbledore having had a girlfriend after Rowling told them (in private) that he was gay.  Martin, on the other hand, has been vocal in his criticisms of several of the cuts and changes made in adapting ASOIAF, although he seems to maintain a good working relationship with the showrunners.  But he doesn't appear to have veto power over anything.

This issue actually comes up in Tolkien's Letters in the context of Forrest J Ackerman's proposal for a film adaptation of LOTR in 1957.  While he didn't end up selling the rights until about ten years later, he seems to have stuck to his "art or cash" policy then.

Letter 202 wrote:But this Mr Ackerman brought some really astonishingly good pictures (Rackham rather than Disney) and some remarkable colour photographs. They have apparently toured America shooting mountain and desert scenes that seem to fit the story. The Story Line or Scenario was, however, on a lower level. In fact bad. But it looks as if business might be done. Stanley U. &: I have agreed on our policy : Art or Cash. Either very profitable terms indeed ; or absolute author's veto on objectionable features or alterations.

NB When re-reading this letter I noticed that Tolkien mentioned having accepted an International Fantasy Award from the organizers of "the Fifteenth World Science Fiction Convention" and I got really excited for a moment, thinking that this meant Tolkien attended Worldcon, but apparently he only went to a private lunch for the award and was left pretty confused by the whole thing.

http://www.fiawol.org.uk/fanstuff/then%20archive/1957Worldcon/LonWorld7.htm

Eldorion wrote:

malickfan wrote:Possibly stupid question, but given the screen rights were sold away, can the Estate/publishers even legally make their own version for commercial distribution?

I can't imagine that the Estate would be able to.  I don't pretend to be an expert on copyright law, but I think the sale of the rights would have to have some sort of exclusivity agreement, otherwise it's not really worth it for the purchaser.  And we know that the rights are indefinite.  New Line will see their license revert to Saul Zaentz if they don't make new films regularly enough, but Zaentz is the owner of the rights, period.

That's pretty much it. It's not really a question of copyright law in this case, more of the general freedom of agreement. An exclusivety agreement is in no way mandatory, but you can pretty much expect the party purchasing the right to demand one. If not he might go away and invest in an adaptation only to find the author has sold the rights to someone else as well and that his Hobbit adaptation, to take a completely random example, must compete with another Hobbit adaptation.

The same thing is the case in the case of the authors involvement in the adaptation. The author might negotiate all kinds of rights with regards to the adaptation process, but the norm is he gives away final say when signing over his rights. Would one expect a director/producer worth the time to allow someone else final say over what is essentially their artistic effort (in the adaptation)?

As George RR Martin likes to say, they give you a dump truck full of money and you give them the right to adapt your work. Authors who don't have to sell their rights, can in a negotiation situation demand more of course.

Eldorion wrote:NB When re-reading this letter I noticed that Tolkien mentioned having accepted an International Fantasy Award from the organizers of "the Fifteenth World Science Fiction Convention" and I got really excited for a moment, thinking that this meant Tolkien attended Worldcon, but apparently he only went to a private lunch for the award and was left pretty confused by the whole thing.

http://www.fiawol.org.uk/fanstuff/then%20archive/1957Worldcon/LonWorld7.htm

That's still a pretty cool story though.

I have never doubted the hard work, the conviction of the "lads on the ground" ie stunt guys, choreographers, dress & set design, the costumes, weapons etc, Im sure it will be highly emotional at the very last "Cut, thats a wrap" but, Im glad. I wanted LOTRs, Middle Earth, Bag end, All of it. I got it but want no more. Its been like going out on a blind date & finding out the guy isnt for you. I feel let down. Please go away peejers, dont you even think of putting a toe back into M.E ! You've killed The Hobbit enough, you squeezed by in LOTRs but got too side tracked & mesmerized with The Hobbit, enough now, let well alone !