Game of Thrones -- TV ONLY

Bluebottle wrote:Apparently, the included flashback to the Cersei prophecy includes mention of her three children. As it does in the book. Forgetting the fact that they gave Cersei and Robert a common child in season one of the tv show which died of a fever as an infant, which Cersei talked about with both Cat and Robert.

Yeah, I heard about this. It's a major misstep if true. Not that I thought giving Robert and Cersei a dead baby ever made a lot of sense, but especially not now.

And what's this about

Spoiler:

C'mon, D&D...

Eldorion wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:Apparently, the included flashback to the Cersei prophecy includes mention of her three children. As it does in the book. Forgetting the fact that they gave Cersei and Robert a common child in season one of the tv show which died of a fever as an infant, which Cersei talked about with both Cat and Robert.

Yeah, I heard about this.  It's a major misstep if true.  Not that I thought giving Robert and Cersei a dead baby ever made a lot of sense, but especially not now.

To me it's another wexample of them wanting a moment, or moments in this case. And outside those moments what transpired wasn't important. They have been very open about their love for Cersei as a character, and they wanted to make her more relatable. Give the audience an opertunity to connect with her that is not there in the early books.

The silly thing about that is, when you finally get inside Cerseis head in the books, as opposed to Jamie, the perception of who is completely changed by getting his point of view, she doesn't become relatable. Quite the opposite. At most the reader mght feel sorry for her. And I really don't get the feeling that George likes her, or finds her relatable. I'm sure he finds her point of view interesting, but he doesn't mean for you to like her.

D&D talking, quite openly, about leaving the books behind.

https://youtu.be/TfvVluNxujc?t=34m

I find this funny. (Perhaps even an improvement on the original. )

Bluebottle wrote:D&D talking, quite openly, about leaving the books behind.

https://youtu.be/TfvVluNxujc?t=34m

"A few deviations along the way."

I've made Eldo into a GoTs book purist.

I'm sorry Eldo. I didn't mean to rain on your parade as far as season 5 is concerned with my negativety.

https://youtu.be/TfvVluNxujc?t=50m

I think this is the first instance of them commenting on the sept scene, saying it pretty much was intentional..

https://youtu.be/TfvVluNxujc?t=1h10m

And here Benioff is referring to an actor who'll die and did not expect to die, (probably the same one as in the EW interview) he says that the person in question resisted the decision and sent a long letter explaining why it was a bad idea to kill him. He also says that said letter made him want to kill the character even more. I'm sorry but, that that is your reaction to someone caring for their character and the story you're telling says a lot. And not allowing considered criticism of your vision is the first hallmark of setting yourself up for making mistakes..

maybe he was joking? I think he was being sardonic more than power mad, but that's just my interpretation.

Bluebottle wrote:I've made Eldo into a GoTs book purist.

I'm sorry Eldo. I didn't mean to rain on your parade as far as season 5 is concerned with my negativety.

It's okay, you're not the only ASOIAF purist I know. I do think some of the criticisms of the show (not speaking about you here) are pretty baseless, or at least show a lack of willingness to even consider the possibility that a show change can be good in its own right.  But there are some changes that have been made already that I'm not a fan of and some of the rumors about S5 are kinda worrying.  But we'll have to wait and see of course.

Bluebottle wrote:https://youtu.be/TfvVluNxujc?t=1h10m

And here Benioff is referring to an actor who'll die and did not expect to die, (probably the same one as in the EW interview) he says that the person in question resisted the decision and sent a long letter explaining why it was a bad idea to kill him. He also says that said letter made him want to kill the character even more. I'm sorry but, that that is your reaction to someone caring for their character and the story you're telling says a lot. And not allowing considered criticism of your vision is the first hallmark of setting yourself up for making mistakes..

I dunno, Mrs Figg raises a good point.  I'm gonna wait and see if any of the deaths in S5 feel unearned or improperly foreshadowed.  As shocking as some of the deaths so far were (Ned, Robb, to some extent Oberyn) they were all set up as basically inevitable in ways that seem very obvious in retrospect.  Hopefully the show-original deaths will also feel like natural parts of the story even if they are otherwise upsetting.

Do actors normally send letters to their producer begging to be allowed to continue? Its a job and if D&D decide to cut a character, its for a reason, not just because they can. I suppose the actor in question didn't want to lose the money or prestige of being involved with GOT.

Mrs Figg wrote:Do actors normally send letters to their producer begging to be allowed to continue? Its a job and if D&D decide to cut a character, its for a reason, not just because they can. I suppose the actor in question didn't want to lose the money or prestige of being involved with GOT.

or could be its one of the characters they killed off that hasn't been killed off in the books yet. I know GRRM said that the screen writers were bloodier than he was, and would be killing off characters still alive in the books. That might play a factor into this characters/actor writing a letter

yeah could be I wonder who it is.

Mrs Figg wrote:Do actors normally send letters to their producer begging to be allowed to continue? Its a job and if D&D decide to cut a character, its for a reason, not just because they can. I suppose the actor in question didn't want to lose the money or prestige of being involved with GOT.

No, I'd say that normally would be considered pretty unproffesional. Which leads me to believe that the reason this person objected was on the basis of Georges original story, where this character would still be alive, and story considerations with regards to the show. That if they had continued down the path George had set out this character would have been important. Any considerations of fame or money would just be scoffed at. There's not many actors I could see sinking to that. I would say such a care for the character in an actor should be applauded. And even if the writers decide to continue down the path they have choosen, the actors input should still be taken on board, appreciated and at least considered. Because it's done with nothing but love for the original story and the character the actor is playing.

Now, I'm perfectly aware that Benioff probably overstated his case as a joke. But when you've heard someone consitently express an opinion on a subject for a while, you do get the impression of someones genuine opinion on that subject. And, yeah, the looking down at someone, to the degree they would lampoon them publicly, for doubting their judgement sounds very plausible to me. And to me, as a viewer, their judgement has been turned out wanting before..

As for who it is.. Well, Ian Mcelhinney seems the obvious candidate But would really a veteran actor be driven to the length of writing a letter because he was written out of a television show. That really is run of the mill stuff for the telvision industry. So, a younger actor would be more plausible. Someone who's not been through this before. But who..

Eldorion wrote:

Bluebottle wrote:I've made Eldo into a GoTs book purist.

I'm sorry Eldo. I didn't mean to rain on your parade as far as season 5 is concerned with my negativety.

It's okay, you're not the only ASOIAF purist I know. I do think some of the criticisms of the show (not speaking about you here) are pretty baseless, or at least show a lack of willingness to even consider the possibility that a show change can be good in its own right.  But there are some changes that have been made already that I'm not a fan of and some of the rumors about S5 are kinda worrying.  But we'll have to wait and see of course.

Ah, well. Good to hear. Good to hear. I wouldn't have wanted to diminish your enthusiasm for season 5.

I'm not sure I really amount to a book purist as far as GoTs is concerned. I did get introduced to the series through the show, and watched and loved the first three seasons before reading, and loving the books. I think, more and more in hindsight, the fourth season has turned out to be a pretty big let down for me. Oberyn was great, some of the Tyrion stuff was great, and probably a fair bit else. But there was also a whole lot of other stuff I struggle with, from an internal story point of view more than comparing it with the story of the books, when I actually reflect on it and its story implications. I really want the story to be good. And if I didn't love the series, I'm not sure I would care this much. I guess I hold it to a standard, not an impossible one, mind, and it really is struggling to get anywhere near that judging by the last season. Still, I really would want it to make it.

That's a good point. They've managed to set a nearly impossibly high bar for themselves. May be possible to maintain on a smaller show like Breaking Bad, but something as immense as Game of Thrones can't help but stumble at times.

I think what I struggle most with are the mistakes that really stick out. That are going to be difficult, if not impossible, to ignore when seeing the series as a whole. And there are several of those already. And I thnk it's a shame, because I think, with the quality of the story it's based on, this could have been the television show of it's time. And instead it's just going to be viewed as a good, or perhaps even decent, one in hindsight. While a huge pop culture phenomena.

That's is a really unfair standard to hold it to though, I'd agree.

Bluebottle wrote:Ah, well. Good to hear. Good to hear. I wouldn't have wanted to diminish your enthusiasm for season 5.

I'm not sure I really amount to a book purist as far as GoTs is concerned. I did get introduced to the series through the show, and watched and loved the first three seasons before reading, and loving the books. I think, more and more in hindsight, the fourth season has turned out to be a pretty big let down for me. Oberyn was great, some of the Tyrion stuff was great, and probably a fair bit else. But there was also a whole lot of other stuff I struggle with, from an internal story point of view more than comparing it with the story of the books, when I actually reflect on it and its story implications. I really want the story to be good. And if I didn't love the series, I'm not sure I would care this much. I guess I hold it to a standard, not an impossible one, mind, and it really is struggling to get anywhere near that judging by the last season. Still, I really would want it to make it.

Bluebottle wrote:I think what I struggle most with are the mistakes that really stick out. That are going to be difficult, if not impossible, to ignore when seeing the series as a whole. And there are several of those already. And I thnk it's a shame, because I think, with the quality of the story it's based on, this could have been the television show of it's time. And instead it's just going to be viewed as a good, or perhaps even decent, one in hindsight. While a huge pop culture phenomena.

That's is a really unfair standard to hold it to though, I'd agree.

I feel the same way about LOTR. There is a lot of great stuff in LOTR. It's hard to compare movies across genres when those genres sometimes have very different aims, but I really want to name LOTR as being among the best movies ever because it has so many incredibly high heights. But there are so many other things that just don't make sense or fall apart upon closer examination that part of me really can't justify calling them that. Stuff like the cocoa puff skulls scene or the army of grene scrubbing bubbles in ROTK just bugs me for that reason. I think ROTK is great, I really do, but to see it just fall on its face at moments like that is incredibly frustrating. Not that PJ (or D&D) owe it to me to make the movies/show the way I would like, but there are some things no matter how I try to see things from a different perspective, I just don't get.

All in all though, I think that GOT has done an admirable job considering the constraints of its medium and (in the early seasons particularly) its budget. It's certainly among my favorite shows on television in this decade, although I don't watch nearly enough TV to have an informed opinion about what the "objectively" greatest shows are.

I agree Eldo. For me LOTR and GOT are sensual feasts in that they are visually stunning with wonderful music, great acting, emotional connection to the characters, fascinating stories. maybe I am easily pleased but that's pretty much all I need from films. Obviously its a major niggle when they deviate from well loved stories, and some parts fall flat or are silly, ie green scrubbing bubbles, but the 95% of wows makes up for it.

Yeah, LotRs is a good example of that too. I agree there are great parts of RotK, but I still can't get through it without groaning. (Petty's edits does help with that. (Though he has a harsher view of the movies than me, and as such some of his choices are harsher than mine would be.)) And I feel kind of the same way about season 4. Some of it is great. (Some of it is stunning, like the Tyrion/Oberyn scene in the cell.) But I can't get through it without groaning at parts, and i feel it struggles as a coherent narrative.  

I don't know. For me it's not so much the changes themselves, but, as Figg says, the ones that fall flat that are the problem. I don't really mind them making changes, even when I can't see the reasons for them. I only really do when they become a problem to the narrative, or jarr with it. But I guess continuety and the coherency of the narrative are important parts of anything I watch and read, and I do get it might be less so for others. You would think it would be for the writers though.

And I do question myself a bit, as I wasn't this critical before I read the books and you can probably pick fault with the earlier seasons too. Less so though, I think. Though I guess part of it is simply a natural consequence of having somehting to compare it with. And a reason to question the choices made.

The odd thing is I've kind of come to think, in the context of all those early comments about how all they wanted to do was to get to the rw, that they really didn't have a plan after that. This idea is also supported by the fair amount of unused set up that you can now see in the early seasons, Tysha and marrying Myrcella of to Price Dorans youngest son to pick two examples. I do hope after they sat down with George ahead of starting to write season 6, that they have decided on the story they'll tell until the end, so we can get it in a coherent fashion. Whether it'll end up the same story as in the books or not.

Three more episode titles.

Season 5, Episode 5: Kill the Boy

Season 5, Episode 6: Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

Season 5, Episode 7: The Gift

Which means were probably getting this in some form.

Spoiler:

From George's not a blog.



I guess he's not a fan.

Bluebottle wrote:And I do question myself a bit, as I wasn't this critical before I read the books and you can probably pick fault with the earlier seasons too. Less so though, I think. Though I guess part of it is simply a natural consequence of having somehting to compare it with. And a reason to question the choices made.

I've wondered about this too. Even though I like many things about the show that my more purist friends have complained about, there was stuff that fell flat for me. Like Stannis' intervention at the Wall, it just fell flat for me. But I know/saw a ton of Unsullied who fucking loved that scene just as much as I had loved its equivalent in the book. So even though I can articulate specific reasons why I don't think the show version was as good (beyond just "it's different"), I do suspect that my opinion on that scene and others like it would be different if I hadn't read the books. But I don't actually know if this would be the case.

It does seem kinda clear that the show was not exhaustively planned out in advance, and while the books weren't either, I do think Martin has been better so far at maintaining continuity as he goes. Although the show did make the right choice by aging up the characters since they knew there wouldn't be any time skips or chapters with months in between them. The extreme precociousness of like every young POV character in the books is a weird relic of Martin's original plan for the story and I'm glad the show was able to sidestep that issue.