Game of Thrones [2]

On the spoiler front, I know there were plenty of douchey book readers who deliberately spoiled things for show watchers, but having the showrunners themselves explicitly spoil a book plotline is on another level.  We're gonna need new spoiler subtitles for our two ASOIAF/GOT threads.

Eldorion wrote:Saw it said on another forum that D&D have confused foreshadowing with character development.  They put the idea of Shireen being burned out there, certainly, but didn't do the legwork to show Stannis reaching the breaking point of making that decision.  I would add that the super-contrived way in which he was put in a bad situation (Ramsay's 20 good men) only makes it worse.

Exactly. Just like making a character go completely 180, (Stannis sending Mel away when she proposed this last episode) does not mean you are writing complex characters. Just completely inconsistent ones.

But when shock value is your ultimate goal in writing..

On the spoiler front, I know there were plenty of douchey book readers who deliberately spoiled things for show watchers, but having the showrunners themselves explicitly spoil a book plotline is on another level. We're gonna need new spoiler subtitles for our two ASOIAF/GOT threads.

Oh come on, the books are out there - expecting someone who is being interviewed constantly to avoid mentioning something that is common domain is just silly.

halfwise wrote:Oh come on, the books are out there - expecting someone who is being interviewed constantly to avoid mentioning something that is common domain is just silly.

The show has so little to do with the books anymore that there's no reason to say "oh yeah, by the way, we got this bit directly from George".  Sure, one could guess that Shireen will die in a future book (though again, the circumstances will obviously be different), but it removes any ambiguity.  They didn't feel the need to do this with Barristan even though he is also probably going to die in TWOW, which leads me to suspect that mentioning GRRM in this instance was a pre-emptive act of ass-covering.

Edit: just to be clear, I'm talking specifically about them spoiling Winds plotlines, which aren't "out there" in public.

Somewhat related, but I love how they show the leech scene in the "previously on" segment and then Melisandre is like "I have shown you the power of king's blood" even though, in the show, king's blood apparently only works 66% of the time.

Yeah, they spoiled something happening in the Winds of WInter.. as in the one not out yet..

That's what the ire is about.. and it does seem a pretty clear kick in Georges direction.. if they didn't just zone out completely and think it was okay to say something will happen in a book that is not even released yet..

Or they thought they needed to hide behind the books for what they knew was going to be another unpopular adaptational decision..

None of which work because..

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121016611972/no-this-wont-happen-in-the-books

Either way, they sold Geroge down the river on this one..

Oh if they spoiled WoW that was pretty shitty. I didn't know what the reference was.

That's pretty much how I feel.  I knew after S4 that the show would spoil certain things but the only thing that we know (more or less) for sure is going to be the same between the show and the books is who is sitting on the Iron Throne at the end.  Nearly everything else is up in the air, increasingly so with each new episode because of the compounding effect of previous changes.

Killing Shireen was stupid. I abandon team Stannis the Mannis. It felt like they just needed to kill someone for shock value and to tug at heartstrings. Absolutely pointless.

Also, what was with the envoy from Westeros doing landing in Braavos in the merchant district?! How stupid was that! Just for the convenience of Arya seeing Meryn Trant, it looked so dumb.

The ridiculous thing is, they've been trying to make you feel that way about Stannis since he first appeared in season 2. But despite all their efforts to the opposite, compelling parts of his book character seeped through into his show counterpart and people liked him. Despite his actions sometimes, but they still liked him. Now, they couldn't be having that obviously.

And sadly it's another interesting grey character thrown out the window for a straightforward good/bad one.

This might have a slighlty theraputic function if you need it, Bungo.

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/121016611972/no-this-wont-happen-in-the-books

you guys crack me up.

I haven't watched episodes 8 or 9 yet but if what I think happened with Stannis the Mannis it seems perfectly in keeping with his character in the tv show. In the tv show he is completely under the thrall of Melisandre. His whole being is obsessed with becoming king, and if she says he has to do the deed I reckon he would. no matter what the cost. don't know about the books but in the tv show he is doing what I expect him to do. If he did. I will have to wait a few days before I can watch it so I don't really want to know the details.

Well, I just saw the epsiode.. Well, sans the Stannis stuff. I saw enough of that in the leaks.. And it was.. shocking. Not as in insulting, but quality wise. I have no idea how the show got here, but.. it's taken a nose dive as far as quality is concerned. And i don't see it recovering..

Mrs Figg wrote:you guys crack me up.

Well, there's one episode to go. And then maybe I'll give up on the show.

(Why does that sound so appealing?)

((See, I can look at the positives. ))

Stopping watching the show does sound appealing, and I'm still two episodes behind the rest of you!

I used to enjoy telling my older sister and her boyfriend tidbits from the books as we watched the show, but with this season nearly everything I have to share is "Wow this is some stupid crap: nothing like this happened in the books."

They watch a lot of subpar television, and having Game of Thrones join the rest in terms of writing quality is pretty darn lame.

Forest Shepherd wrote:Stopping watching the show does sound appealing, and I'm still two episodes behind the rest of you!

I used to enjoy telling my older sister and her boyfriend tidbits from the books as we watched the show, but with this season nearly everything I have to share is "Wow this is some stupid crap: nothing like this happened in the books."

They watch a lot of subpar television, and having Game of Thrones join the rest in terms of writing quality is pretty darn lame.

I feel you, Forest. I introduced my mom to GOT last season and we still talk about each new episode every week.  She hasn't read the books and is much more positive about this season. I sometimes end up trying to moderate my criticism when chatting with her just so as not to be a debbie downer. It makes me wonder (again) if I'm being unfairly critical because I just re-read ADWD last summer. But I'm not even a big ADWD fan, and I actively dislike AFFC, so it's not like the show is shitting on my favorite subplots or anything.  It's just ... not very good this season.

I'm almost certain that I'll be back next season, but I am going to have to think on that for a bit once S5 wraps up.  I do enjoy getting to talk so much about ASOIAF with you guys, though.

Figgy - I think that this is out of character for Stannis. Shirred is the one thing that he seems to hold dear to him over Melisandre. He has never been completely devout... in fact he has questioned her a lot while his Mrs has been the one who has been openly critical of and unloving to her daughter.

Re the Mereen scene.. I made a comment as it closed around the SotH guys who miraculously disappeared. Who is going to rule now that her new hubby is all stabbed up?

The whole Mr Trant thing is a bit contrived too. Seems they just want to set him up as a horrible person (with the whole brothel scene) so people want him to get killed.

Only 1 more episode left now. Not a bad thing I suppose.

Haha, I guess it's quite the pervading attitude then. I haven't really made any decisions on continuing watching yet, but what the show and showrunners have managed this season is completely loose my faith in their ability to tell this story.

Now, there's a lot of mediocre television out there, there's even a lot of plainly bad television out there that people watch. Would I feel more open to continuing watchin if this series wasn't based on the epic fantasy series of it's day? Probalby. And a live action epic fantasy series of this scope is a rarity on television, certainly. So, I'm sure it would have been something I would have been following closely in any case. That still doesn't excuse the poor writing, because the writing for the show as a standalone entity this seson has been genuinely poor. And even if I were to live with the poor writing, although I would still complain about it, there are still the actively insulting contrived ridiculous moments for shock value to get past. (Sansa, Shireen.)

Actually, that exemplifies what seem to be a growing trend in their writing. They want their moments the ones that look epic on screen, and how they twist the storytelling to get there doesn't seem to be important. Case in point, Jon truning up at the north side of the Wall at Castle Black. We are somehow meant to assume they sailed their ships south and then decided to walk back on the north side of the Wall, exposed to the very whights and white walkers they were trying to escape. Why? Because they wanted the Jon and Alliser stare down, logic be damned. And that's how a lot of their writing reads to me this season.

http://captainofalltheships.tumblr.com/post/121075730027/chrys-watches-got-season-5-episode-9

I just don't believe that the quality could have nosedived from 4 to 5 so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. I have noticed a lot more Debbie Downing in this season due to the divergence from the books, which seems to be a major gripe. I must admit it started slowly this season but I am still enjoying it. Compared to anything else I watch on tv this show never fails to excite and thrill me, and I love watching Tyrion and Arya do their thing. Compared to say, Jonathan Strange and Mr Norell, which is a total underwhelming borefest, GOT remains pretty fantastic stuff.

We've SEEN the quality go down this season, though. What could have happened has nothing to do with it. (Though on that note, how many people thought The Hobbit could haveturned out like it did?) I think season four was itself somewhat of a step down from the previous two and we knew going in that Feast/Dance presented unprecedented challenges for the show, so it's not like these issues came out of nowhere.

well maybe book readers have, but I haven't noticed anything dramatic. I certainly wouldn't say its like the difference in quality from LOTR to The Hobbit. well maybe it is for book readers, but the casual observer doesn't notice it much or care.

I have to be honest and say I don't think it has much to do with changes from the books. I was complaining of that in season four, and there are some really odd ones in season 5 too. It's more down to the problems of incoherent narrative and characterization that had began to show itself in season four coming to a head. But I'm very aware you have these discussions with Petty about LotRs too. And that those things are not necessarily the most important for you in enjoying a piece of popular culture. And that's fine of course.

Too me it's a bit more like the problems I had with the Hobbit this season, while it was more like the problems I had with LotRs in previous season. (Season 4 being somewhere in between.)

I don't think that have most to do with departing from the subject matter, but the drop in coherncy and, in my opinion, quality when they do and as they try to let their own writing stand on it's own feet is very noticable to me

I was calling for radical cuts and changes to AFFC/ADWD before this season started and was actually somewhat optimistic that the show might represent an improvement over those two volumes.  If I harp on the book a lot, it's because the book is the most obvious counter-example of how things could have been done better in most situations.  Looking back over all my complaints about episode nine from the other day, I only brought up the book in the context of the spoiler thing from the Inside the Episode featurette.  Otherwise my issues with the show are simply the ways in which fell short on its own merits.  I think that sticking closer to the book would have resulted in many of these other problems not existing, but that's beside the point.

It's cool that people are enjoying the show, but considering that GOT if famous for leaving casual viewers struggling to remember the names of all the recurring characters, I'm not sure it's popularity is the best measure of whether the show is living up to its full artistic potential.

Edit: I'm not trying to be an asshole here, but the number of people (both regular people I've talked about the show with and professional critics) who go on and on about how "anyone can die" and "no one is safe" seems like a really narrow view of the story's qualities and potential.  But the worst part is when they attribute the whole "anyone can die" idea to Martin, which is either people making assumptions about the books without having read them, or just a massive misunderstanding of the books (though an unfortunately common one).  Martin has never been about random killing of characters just for the shock value.  He has killed off very few point-of-view characters and does fake-out deaths way more than the real thing when it comes to POV.  He's also quite aware of the rules of good storytelling and of his other goals in writing.

maybe I should just avoid these threads, I feel a Westeros grass length moment imminent.