Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

by Lancebloke Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:13 am

Ringo from TV thread - I've not seen the episode (or any other episodes), but I read that Lady Stoneheart doesn't appear, and that book fans are "furious". I actually think that was a good choice - I think Lady Stoneheart was a mistake, he should never have resurrected her. She never really added anything to the story except a "wtf", and she doesn't play any significant role after her introduction (though that may yet change, of course). See, Eldo - I don't always complain about changes.

I have been concocting a little theory here.

In the red faith the have 2 gods, R'hollor and the Other. R'hollor seems to have the power to bring people back to life e.g. Beric and assume Stoneheart.

The Wights are called the others and there seems to be some power here to bring the dead back but more in the vain of mindless zombies.

Melisandre keeps talking about remembering the true enemy north of the wall... so are these Others called that because they cannot be named as their god also cannot. And is R'hollor the 'good' god who is giving life back to people that can fight for its cause... so possibly we will see Jon Snow come back and also explains why Dany can get fried by dragons and still be alive....?

by Mrs Figg Tue Jun 17, 2014 12:08 pm

It really is all about Ice and Fire, a fire god and an ice god fighting each other.

by Ringdrotten Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:03 pm

Interesting theory, lance! Though if Jon dies, I'd rather he stays dead. He's one of my favourite characters, but if the alternative to his death is him rising as an Other-like thing there won't be much of Jon left Sad

More like Mr Wallheart the Other Laughing

by halfwise Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:52 am

As to Stoneheart not playing a big role, that remains to be seen. The last scene we have of Brienne is right before she is hung, she "says a word"...fade to black. I think something of significance was going on but we won't know until the next book comes out.

by Lancebloke Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:58 pm

I think melisandre has a use for Jon and wonder if she will do the bringing back more like Beric than the walkers with the blue eyes.

I don't think he can be dead as that might serve to alienate a lot of fans.

by Mrs Figg Thu Jun 19, 2014 4:01 pm

Jon is a really important iconic character in the story, I cant imagine why Martin would want to kill off the main character in the North, it would be as weird as Killing off Dany or Arya.

by Bluebottle Fri Jun 20, 2014 3:35 pm

Yeah, I find it hard to believe it too Figg. Not only because there's seemingly so much of his story left to tell, but also because, as we talked about earlier, George likes his end of chapter cliffhangers that can be interpreted as these things seemingly happening. Only for the character to pop up again at the start of his next chapter like nothing has happened.

There's a good list of examples of that here (though some of them are a bit spoilery.)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111750-every-time-i-thought-someone-died/

Here are some that the series has covered.

The man looked over at the woman. “The things I do for love,” he said with loathing. He gave Bran a shove. Screaming, Bran went backward out the window into empty air. There was nothing to grab on to. The courtyard rushed up to meet him. Somewhere off in the distance, a wolf was howling. Crows circled the broken tower, waiting for corn.

—BRAN

The plaza was beginning to empty. The press dissolved around them as people drifted back to their lives. But Arya’s life was gone. Numb, she trailed along beside... Yoren, yes, his name is Yoren. She did not recall him finding Needle, until he handed the sword back to her. “Hope you can use that, boy.”
“I’m not-” she started.
He shoved her into a doorway, thrust dirty fingers through her hair, and gave it a twist, yanking her head back. “-not a smart boy, that what you mean to say?”
He had a knife in his other hand.
As the blade flashed toward her face, Arya threw herself backward, kicking wildly, wrenching her head from side to side, but he had her by the hair, so strong, she could feel her scalp tearing, and on her lips the salt taste of tears.

—ARYA

Another man whipped a torch round and round his head and then lofted it toward the thatched roof of the stables. “Save me the Freys,” the Bastard was shouting as the flames roared upward, “and burn the rest. Burn it, burn it all.”

The last thing Theon Greyjoy saw was Smiler, kicking free of the burning stables with his mane ablaze, screaming, rearing . . .”

—THEON

“I’m being swept out into the bay. It wouldn’t be as bad there; he ought to be able to make shore, he was a strong swimmer. Salladhor Saan’s galleys would be out in the bay as well, Ser Imry had commanded them to stand off . . .

And then the current turned him about again, and Davos saw what awaited him downstream.

The chain. Gods save us, they’ve raised the chain.

Where the river broadened out into Blackwater Bay, the boom stretched taut, a bare two or three feet above the water. Already a dozen galleys had crashed into it, and the current was pushing others against them. Almost all were aflame, and the rest soon would be. Davos could make out the striped hulls of Salladhor Saan’s ships beyond, but he knew he would never reach them. A wall of red-hot steel, blazing wood, and swirling green flame stretched before him. The mouth of the Blackwater Rush had turned into the mouth of hell.”

—DAVOS

“Was that why he reeled backward, or did he see the sword after all? He would never know. The point slashed just beneath his eyes, and he felt its cold hard touch and then a blaze of pain. His head spun around as if he’d been slapped. The shock of the cold water was a second slap more jolting than the first. He flailed for something to grab on to, knowing that once he went down he was not like to come back up. Somehow his hand found the splintered end of a broken oar. Clutching it tight as a desperate lover, he shinnied up foot by foot. His eyes were full of water, his mouth was full of blood, and his head throbbed horribly. Gods give me strength to reach the deck . . . There was nothing else, only the oar, the water, the deck.

Finally he rolled over the side and lay breathless and exhausted, flat on his back. Balls of green and orange flame crackled overhead, leaving streaks between the stars. He had a moment to think how pretty it was before Ser Mandon blocked out the view. The knight was a white steel shadow, his eyes shining darkly behind his helm. Tyrion had no more strength than a rag doll. Ser Mandon put the point of his sword to the hollow of his throat and curled both hands around the hilt.

And suddenly he lurched to the left, staggering into the rail. Wood split, and Ser Mandon Moore vanished with a shout and a splash. An instant later, the hulls came slamming together again, so hard the deck seemed to jump. Then someone was kneeling over him. “Jaime?” he croaked, almost choking on the blood that filled his mouth. Who else would save him, if not his brother?

“Be still, my lord, you’re hurt bad.” A boy’s voice, that makes no sense, thought “Tyrion. It sounded almost like Pod.

—TYRION

The mud slowed her, though, and then the water. Run fast as a wolf. The drawbridge had begun to lift, the water running off it in a sheet, the mud falling in heavy clots. Faster. She heard loud splashing and looked back to see Stranger pounding after her, sending up gouts of water with every stride. She saw the longaxe too, still wet with blood and brains. And Arya ran. Not for her brother now, not even for her mother, but for herself. She ran faster than she had ever run before, her head down and her feet churning up the river, she ran from him as Mycah must have run.
His axe took her in the back of the head.

—ARYA

And there's seemingly so many ways out of the situation with Jon still being alive as well.

by bungobaggins Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:28 am

Purchased A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings yesterday. I just got to where the first episode of GoT ends with Jaime pushing Bran out the window. It's going to take a while to get through these books, but I think it will be worth it. Very Happy

by Ringdrotten Mon Jun 23, 2014 6:38 am

I'm already thinking about rereading them before the sixth book is out, bungo, so I'd say it's worth it Very Happy

by Eldorion Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:11 pm

Bluebottle wrote:Yeah, I find it hard to believe it too Figg. Not only because there's seemingly so much of his story left to tell, but also because, as we talked about earlier, George likes his end of chapter cliffhangers that can be interpreted as these things seemingly happening. Only for the character to pop up again at the start of his next chapter like nothing has happened.

Pretty much. For as many significant character deaths as there have been in ASOIAF, there are nearly as many fake-out deaths. Considerably more fake-outs if you limit the sample to only POV characters.

by Eldorion Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:12 pm

bungobaggins wrote:Purchased A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings yesterday. I just got to where the first episode of GoT ends with Jaime pushing Bran out the window. It's going to take a while to get through these books, but I think it will be worth it.

I'm glad that you seem to be enjoying AGoT so far. Very Happy

Keep us posted on your progress/thoughts, please!

by halfwise Mon Jun 23, 2014 4:28 pm

Nice compilation of non-deaths, BB. I don't remember how many of them are resolved, which means I'll just have to re-read the books...again. Mad

by Mrs Figg Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:05 pm

I really liked that they didnt show The Hound actually dying on the show, which leaves it open to the imagination that maybe he didnt and someone saved him. Its a shame as he was just learning to have some feelings of friendship for Arya and being more human. I hope its not the last we see of him anyway.

by Lancebloke Mon Jun 23, 2014 8:34 pm

I think the Hound had human feelings all the way through but only let them show on a few occasions. I think he tried to befriend Sansa in his own way the same as he did Arya.

by Forest Shepherd Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:05 pm

Yeah well, it probably will be, knowing the "genius" who comes up with this stuff.
Character arcs all end in death.

by Mrs Figg Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:21 pm

Lancebloke wrote:I think the Hound had human feelings all the way through but only let them show on a few occasions. I think he tried to befriend Sansa in his own way the same as he did Arya.

I think he didnt know how to show human emotions before he met Arya, she was a kind of cathartic experience for him, he felt protective for Sansa but was still clumsy and scary and bunged up at that stage, by the end he was pretty much getting all his hurt off his chest, and then they go and kill him. its not fair.

I hated watching him and Brienne fight so viciously, they are both good people really, it was awful to watch.

by bungobaggins Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:16 am

Eldorion wrote:
bungobaggins wrote:Purchased A Game of Thrones and A Clash of Kings yesterday. I just got to where the first episode of GoT ends with Jaime pushing Bran out the window. It's going to take a while to get through these books, but I think it will be worth it.

I'm glad that you seem to be enjoying AGoT so far. Keep us posted on your progress/thoughts, please!

I'm really surprised at how well adapted this was so far (got through episode 2 and the death of Lady Sad

). It's difficult to not think of things in terms of the episodes, or what's about to come up, or to even imagine your own idea of what the characters look like. I'm a little surprised by the age differences, but it's nothing like the age difference of Thorin in The Hobbit. I think I actually like how the characters are older in the tv show, it feels a little more believable. Shrugging

I'm kind of a slow reader, so this will take a while. I'm looking at A Clash of Kings and it's nearly 1000 pages. It will be like reading nearly all of Lord of the Rings. Shocked

I had been using my kindle and my kindle app on my phone a lot recently, but I made a point to buy the physical books. I just missed holding them, and the smell.

by Forest Shepherd Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:55 am

bungobaggins wrote:
I'm kind of a slow reader, so this will take a while. I'm looking at A Clash of Kings and it's nearly 1000 pages. It will be like reading nearly all of Lord of the Rings.

by bungobaggins Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:25 am

by Ringdrotten Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:10 am

Daenerys is thirteen in the books, so I think they had to make some changes. Some scenes would've been less than appropriate if they hadn't Smile

by Forest Shepherd Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:23 am

The biggest cliffhanger non-death that comes to mind for me was {SPOILER] when they left Brienne and Co. apparently strung up and asphyxiating to death for the entire gap between two books.

by Eldorion Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:33 am

I notice you seem to have thrown in with a house, Bungo Baratheon. Nod

Now that we're done with Orange Is the New Black, my family and I started our Game of Thrones (re)watch. It's the first time my parents have seen it, and I've never watched the whole thing through. I saw the first four or five episodes when they originally premiered, and since then have only periodically caught up through DVR and clips in YouTube. We watched the first two episodes and it does all feel very familiar, both because I've seen them before (albeit three years ago) and because I've read the book. From what I've heard, the rest of the season is also quite faithful to the book, with the greater changes coming in the second and especially third seasons. But it will be interesting to see what I make of it.

On the age thing, I think the main reason they did it was liability, though it may have also made it easier to find good child actors. I think Bungo raises a good point, that the slightly older ages make some of the characters' actions more believable. I did find 14-year-old Robb conquering the Riverlands to be a bit credulity-straining. Sure, I know people had to grow up faster in the past, but even Alexander the Great waited until he was 18.

A stray observation on the beginning of the story, which applies to both show and books, is how familiar it feels. Of course, the show is famous for setting Ned up as a protagonist before yanking the rug out from under him at the Great Sept of Baelor. But most of his children feel like very conventional fantasy characters in the beginning. Jon is a young boy with mysterious heritage and a great destiny. Arya is a tomboy who hates being told to practice her sewing. None of this lasts, but I think it helps ease the reader/viewer into the world at the beginning. IIRC, Martin has commented that he tried to mimic the familiar introduction to a fantastic world method that Tolkien used the Shire for in LOTR.

by Lancebloke Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:55 am

Forest - I am not sure if Brienne isn't dead. Like the hound who seemed to have come back only for it to be someone else, could stoneheart being luring Jamie in to a trap?

by halfwise Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:30 pm

She didn't appear again after being hung (hanged? who cares). The only reason to believe she may still be alive is she said 'a word'.

by Mrs Figg Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:40 pm

was the word 'Arya'?