Re: A Song of Ice and Fire [2]

by Eldorion Sun May 10, 2015 6:58 pm

Well said, Mrs Figg. I think GRRM has a real point when he says the showrunners are more bloodthirsty than him. The "shocking" levels of violence in the books get really exaggerated sometimes. When major character death gets too common, it stops being all that shocking.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 10, 2015 7:08 pm

Basing the visual style of the films on that of established Tolkien artists obviously went a long way Eldo

like Harry Potter world to a certain extent, well it is for me as far as the characters go. I think only Dumbledore was mishandled, he never felt right to me.

by Bluebottle Sun May 10, 2015 9:42 pm

Eldorion wrote:Well said, Mrs Figg. I think GRRM has a real point when he says the showrunners are more bloodthirsty than him. The "shocking" levels of violence in the books get really exaggerated sometimes. When major character death gets too common, it stops being all that shocking.

Yes, I think that a very good point. Obviously George is fond of subverting tropes, but when you subvert a sepcific trope so many times, you end up needing to follow the trope to be subvertive. George skirts a line here in my opinon.

What I think is problematic about the way the show handles these shock moments is that it treats it like that. Shock moments. D&D have even gone on record saying they see the appeal of the series to be "No one is safe. Anyone can die." Which to me kind of is missing Georges point. The point about these "shocking moments" in the books is htat they all seem so natural in hindsight. When you read the story in hindsight you can see all thses hints and things pointing at the "shocking moment." The shocking death in the last episode was one of those out of nowhere ones for me. There was no reason for it to happen, no foundation. And as such I can'æt see it having happened in the books. George actually made a comment on this recently.

when speaking about his current work on “The Winds of Winter,” the author revealed he connected some dots on a character and has a twist planned that will “drive [his] readers crazy.”

According to Martin: “I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking.”

Unfortunately for the people who only watch the TV show, Martin said the twist he’s got in mind cannot come to fruition in the series because of choices the showrunners previously made. Mysterious as ever, right?

by Bluebottle Sun May 10, 2015 9:45 pm

Someone posted this on another forum. Razz

GOT is now like a Michael Bay film, sit back and enjoy the eye candy, don't expect it to make sense.

by Bluebottle Sun May 10, 2015 9:50 pm

IMO GOT is like CW quality at this point, I honestly don't see it as any better television than Gossip Girl or The Vampire Diaries or whatever.

by Mrs Figg Sun May 10, 2015 10:59 pm

its got too narrow and focused on the small things the small narrow world of a few characters. for example where are the flipping White Walkers? are they still on the march since season 3? what happened to them? what happened to the epic sweeping battles between Stannis and the Wildlings? what happened to them, where are those thousands of people? where are the overarching epic themes, Robbs army, where is the actual Game of Thrones? it seems like its shrunk down to domestic shenanigans on the Stan the man front, Dany is alone in her tower with Mr Disasterous Casting Change, Tyrion has spent most of the time in a box, Cercei being the mother in law from hell, the most dramatic thing to happen recently is Sansa dying her hair black. yep that's shocking. it makes her look 10 years older.

by Bluebottle Mon May 11, 2015 4:15 pm

I'm so proud. With the amount of people still praising this stuff, you're showing some good taste. Nod

Well, in my opinion of course. Smile

I do agree with your points, and it's interesting that most of them are distinctly different in the books. I'd be very interested to hear what you thought of Georges version of the story. Could I ask how the reading is going?

by Bluebottle Mon May 11, 2015 4:16 pm

Having seen the latest episode I'm more and more getting the feeling that they are just rushing through the last two books. Wanting to get through them as quickly as possible. Which showcases a distinct lack of love for the stories in them. I'm still surprised though, even if I am right, with the carelessness they seem to be going about it. It's just so messy, with so many plot holes and logical inconsistencies. And characterisations completely all over the place. And somehow they manage, while rushing through the story, to make every seen feel so dragged out. Which is quite an accomplishment.

I don't know. Even if I accept my premise that they just want to get through this part of the story in a hurry, how exactly am I to belive things will pick up again next season when they'll be completely on their own writing wise? Doesn't seem all that likely going by the current standard of the writing.

by Bluebottle Mon May 11, 2015 4:24 pm

I did like though, all the characters calling out the changes in the storylines this episode.

Daenerys on how stupid Barristans death was, "..and he died in an alley.", Brienne, "..you think she's safe with the Boltons." Theon, "..you shouldn't be here.", to Sansa.

Razz

by Mrs Figg Mon May 11, 2015 6:19 pm

Bluebottle wrote:I'm so proud. With the amount of people still praising this stuff, you're showing some good taste. Well, in my opinion of course.

I do agree with your points, and it's interesting that most of them are distinctly different in the books. I'd be very interested to hear what you thought of Georges version of the story. Could I ask how the reading is going?

I am still on the first book. its taking ages to wade through it. Embarassed

by Bluebottle Tue May 12, 2015 1:59 pm

Yeah, I get that. It's never as interesting to go through a story you've already been through. My brother kind of had the same problem when he tried reading the first book last summer. He loved it to begin with, but kind of grew bored with knowing where the story was heading as he went through it. Book three, which is widely considered to be the best book in the series, and book four and five, which the current season is adapting, have less of that issue. So, it's always possible to jump to either of them and then go back and read the earlier books whenever you feel like it.

I've always thought book 1 a great standalone fantasy novel, but seen in light of the scope of A Song of Ice and Fire as a series book one and two always felt the lesser part. To me, anyway.

by Bluebottle Tue May 12, 2015 6:14 pm

I do wonder a bit whether any of the hesitancy for the show warchers will be allieviated about the "wow" moment coming up as we near the end of the season. With the WoS, DP and HH coming.

I'm not so sure, as to their narrative impact. They'll still create shock of course, and that is kind of the hallmark of the show, but with the changes will the shocking moments feel earned. Barristans death in my opinion did not.

From what we know..

Spoiler:

I'd be interested to hear what those who have read the books think. Can these "wow" moments win teh casual viewers over again?

by Bluebottle Tue May 12, 2015 6:15 pm

Some pretty big soilers in that spoiler. Just fyi. Smile

by Eldorion Wed May 13, 2015 2:38 am

Saw this on another forum. Very Happy

A Song of Ice and Fire [2] - Page 29 SGMU5Pnl

Edit: slightly smaller image now Razz

by Eldorion Wed May 13, 2015 2:45 am

Some really interesting thoughts in your spoilery post, Blue. Smile

I can't really do justice with a full response right now, but I agree with much of what you say. I think some people will be impressed by the shocking moments because they're only in it for the surprise, but I think a greater number of non-book readers will recognize that they were unearned, if not at first, then after having had a while to think things over.

by Bluebottle Thu May 14, 2015 1:13 pm

It will definitely be really interesting to see how people react. I would agree with you, but I am a bit hesitant. The showrunners have gone on record saying the appeal they saw in the series was that "Anyone can die! No one is safe!" And they did get into the adaptation with the express goal of getting the rw to screen. As such I feel the show has kind of fallen into their view of the original story, it is really a vehicle for these epic "wow!" moments. So, perhaps people will see the final part of the series with those moments and say "Wow! This is epic! This is the Game of Thrones I know and love!" and shrugh off the incosistencies in storylines and characterization of the first half of the series. I really want people to see through it, because for me the series has been a bit of a trailwreck so far and some of the decisions they have made are.. baffling. But it's hard to be sure.

I don't know, the general feeling I have of the series, and someone else coined this, is that while they are rushing through the story every scene somehow feels dragged out. And by rushing they are removing the meaning, the meat, the nuance, the intrigue, from the part of the story they are actually representing.

by Bluebottle Thu May 14, 2015 1:17 pm

Eldorion wrote:I can't really do justice with a full response right now

Yeah, I get that. Like I meant to answer your post about the nature of adaptation and everything on the last page. I even started writing a reply, but it is something I find very interesting, so I thought I'd think it through properly before responding. And then.. things get in the way. I'll try to get around to it though. I do find it very interesting to get your perspective on it. Smile

by Bluebottle Thu May 14, 2015 1:41 pm

Adding to the Jamie point above. Razz

The looks the sparrows gave [Cersei] were dull, sullen, hostile. They made way but reluctantly. If they were truly sparrows, a shout would send them flying. A hundred gold cloaks with staves and swords and maces could clear this rabble quick enough. That was what Lord Tywin would have done. He would have ridden over them instead of walking through.

When she saw what they had done to Baelor the Beloved, the queen had cause to rue her soft heart. The great marble statue that had smiled serenely over the plaza for a hundred years was waist-deep in a heap of bones and skulls. Some of the skulls had scraps of flesh still clinging to them. A crow sat atop one such, enjoying a dry, leathery feast. Flies were everywhere. “What is the meaning of this?” Cersei demanded of the crowd. “Do you mean to bury Blessed Baelor in a mountain of carrion?”

A one-legged man stepped forward, leaning on a wooden crutch. “Your Grace, these are the bones of holy men and women, murdered for their faith. Septons, septas, brothers brown and dun and green, sisters white and blue and grey. Some were hanged, some disemboweled. Septs have been despoiled, maidens and mothers raped by godless men and demon worshipers. Even silent sisters have been molested. The Mother Above cries out in her anguish. We have brought their bones here from all over the realm, to bear witness to the agony of the Holy Faith.”

Cersei could feel the weight of eyes upon her. “The king shall know of these atrocities,” she answered solemnly. “Tommen will share your outrage. This is the work of Stannis and his red witch, and the savage northmen who worship trees and wolves.” She raised her voice. “Good people, your dead shall be avenged!”

A few cheered, but only a few. “We ask no vengeance for our dead,” said the one-legged man, “only protection for the living. For the septs and holy places.”

A religious group.. with relatable motivations and grievances.. how strange..

by Bluebottle Fri May 15, 2015 4:29 am

Some more book snobbery about the show.

http://gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/118980213691/unabashed-book-snobbery-2-gots-10-most-ooc

by Bluebottle Fri May 15, 2015 4:31 am

And apparently Ian McElhinney was doing a Twitter Q&A, and was asked whether he liked the books or show the best. He answered the books.

Makes me miss him even more, he was actually a fan of Georges series just like us.. Although considering the direction they are going.. perhaps it's just as well. Razz

by Bluebottle Fri May 15, 2015 5:34 am

Bluebottle wrote:And apparently Ian McElhinney was doing a Twitter Q&A, and was asked whether he liked the books or show the best. He answered the books.

Makes me miss him even more, he was actually a fan of Georges series just like us.. Although considering the direction they are going.. perhaps it's just as well.

A Song of Ice and Fire [2] - Page 29 0JSd56L

by Bluebottle Fri May 15, 2015 5:52 am

why did you have to die??!

ask D&D

I won't be there but I'll ask now! Why did they get rid of such a great character? It made no sense!

i agree

Did you write the letter to David Beniof and D.B Weiss?

yes

why is the show so stupid?

no idea

Dany aside, who would you choose to sit on the Iron Throne?

Jon Snow

eliminating the most storied knight in the realm for an unsullied love story is non-sensical, right?

have you read the ASOIAF books? if so do you like the show or books better?

books

How did they choose to kill of Barristan?

i wish i knew

if you could bring one character back from the dead, who would you pick?

The Hound

are you a fan of the books? And if so, is is difficult to get up for the show knowing how much they are changing.

love the books

how did you react when you found out your character was going to be killed off?

disapppointed and shocked

do YOU know who Jon Snow's mother is?

yes

which character gives you (secretly) the creeps?

littlefinger probably

who's your favorite Stark?

snow or arya

Finding it very hard not to love the guy.

by Bluebottle Sun May 17, 2015 8:34 am

by Bluebottle Sun May 17, 2015 9:30 am

by Bluebottle Mon May 18, 2015 10:53 pm

That was.. let's just say from the get go, I liked the Arya scenes, and the first Tyrion and Jorah one, I even kind of appreciated Littlefinger and Cersei, as it at least gave Littlefingers inane prattlings from previous episodes some context (He doesn't care for Sansa in the show, not one bit. He's selling her down the river. As for that angle, let's move on.)

Everything else was painful though. Kingslanding, the "trial", Dorne, which showcases every reason this show will never win it's way back into my good graces, because everything is off, their choices, their sensibilities, their writing. They had a good, some would probably say decent, storyline, and they ruined it. By their own choices, by their own preferences. And that says it all. By what they prefer, the story they prefer to tell. And the Winterfell storyline.. Let's not even go there. Let's just say that last scene stilll has me boardeline considering quitting the show. I still might.

Next week? I don't even know anyomore..