Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

[David H]

Amy doesn't die in Pandorica in any of the time frames   She is just shot and put in the Pandorica to heal.

Oh come on, Petty!  

Plastic Rory is telling Amy to run because he's going to kill her.
She's crying and coming closer.  
She remembers Rory's name and asks to see the ring.
They embrace.
We see the gun fire.
We see a closeup of Amy's tear streaked face go from love to shock.
The music swells and time slows. Her mouth falls open.
Her eyes lose focus and the light goes out. Her head falls back.
The last scene of the show is of Rory holding Amy's limp, lifeless body, her arms dangling.
We pan back as operatic music soars.
(Yes dammit!!! You made me re-watch it Petty.  )

If that's not a death, then none of them count but the final one.
If that's not a death, then nobody's ever died in a TV Western either.  

Just think medically for a second.  Where would you shoot a person in the torso that would bring unconsciousness in a few seconds?  Can you think of anyplace but the heart, with the resulting loss of blood-pressure?  

Shot in the heart by a professional soldier with a weapon that's designed to kill, at point blank range I'm saying!
Not quite dead you're saying?   

[Pettytyrant101]

It depends what you count as a death- I wouldnt count that oneon two counts-firstly factual, she is not dead, and sexondly narrative- it acts as a cliffhanger but the very start of the next part reveals she wasnot dead at all.
Thats a very standard sort of dramatic cliffhanger.

If you compare that to say Rory's death IN Cold Blood where he not only dies but he remains dead, and the viewer is encouraged to think of him as dead for several episodes after that.
That qualifies on both counts- he is actually dead (if absorbed) and he is considered so for a period of time.

I have the same problem counting plastic Roman Rory as a character death, who ceases to exist after the events of Pandorica, but continues on without break in Big Bang.

For me counting those is the same as saying Captain Picard in TNG has had several deaths of his character. I would say he has not, but I can think of a few episode off the top of my head (Q as God, and the two parter where he joins the vulcan/romulan pirates, the one he leads a whole life in twenty minutes ect where the character appears to be dead or dies but is revealed not to be/have) but I have never heard of anyone arguing that Picard keeps dying in TNG.
In terms of structuring narrative I dont see the difference.

[David H]

I also seem to remember that you don't count all the Rory-deaths that I do. The one where he's painting "Kill Amy" on the walls of the Tardis in his own blood and excrement, for example. Sure, it later proved to not be "real" (or was it? The whole idea of reality gets bungled up with the "Amy's Memory = Reality" concept. So many logical holes! Rolling Eyes ), but on my scorecard it's still a death. I seem to remember there were almost 20 episodes in which either Amy or Rory died in some form or other, though some episodes may have gotten counted more than once for multiple deaths. I can't remember now..... scratch

Anyway, we clearly have different rules for scorekeeping. Nothing wrong with that really.

I dont think its different score keeping- I think your memory is out.

I think it's score keeping

[Pettytyrant101]

Except even counting all the ones you do its still nowhere near 20. You still cant keep score! (wonder if thats a good or a bad thing in a Mayor)

[Mrs Figg]

I note no Amy in that vid, or mention of her- probably because Amy's birth doesn't qualify as a 'mystical' birth as there is nothing mystical about it. Both conception and birth happen normally-    yeah right.  the circumstances are far from normal but not the conception or the manner of birth. Petty

er its not in the vid because she is discussing US sci-fi.  Amy was forced to bear a child, because sex does not indicate consent to have a child. Not even when you’re married. Never, ever. SEX DOES NOT EQUAL CONSENT TO BEAR A CHILD.

You consent to have a child when you and your partner discuss having a child and you expressly say 'I want to have a child' You consent to have a child, even if you didn’t plan to be pregnant and become pregnant due to circumstances beyond your control, when you expressly say' I want to have a child'. You consent to have a child when you carry it with your knowledge and expressed consent for nine months. You consent to have a child when you are able to choose the place and method of that child’s birth.

And guess what? None of these things happened with Amy. Amy is experienced what they call a 'Mystical Pregnancy' trope. For nine months, she didn’t know she was pregnant. Her body was held captive, against her will, and forced to endure through a pregnancy she had no idea was developing. (see MP trope) She was only informed by the Doctor that she was pregnant right before she was about to deliver and while in great and terrible pain. She was then forced to give birth in a strange facility, separated from everyone she loves and surrounded by people who want to hurt her and the child she just found out existed. (see trope)
She was forced to bear a child in every sense of that word. (see MP trope) Amy was treated as nothing more than a vessel, a body to store a fetus in for nine months. Her knowledge and her consent were meaningless. The Silence didn’t just kidnap her child. The kidnapped her body, forced it through a pregnancy, and violated her in one of the worst ways possible. And the Doctor colluded with this violation by keeping this knowledge from her until the last possible second. Nice.


I also strongly disagree when she says "some of us can have babies but that doesn't mean you can use that in your story"- why not?

Because this is not a soap opera

Some men have elevated hormone levels and are prone to exceptional levels of violence- but I dont know anyone who has regularly displayed the sort of male violence casually portrayed in drama on a regular basis, should we ban all portrayals of violent men in tv and film however has sexist as its a violation of male bodies being exploited for narrative purposes?

Lame argument. We are talking about a kids tv show not adult content, adults can watch what the hell they like, violent or not, children's tv shows have a duty of care. Plus Dr Who is supposed to be a positive role model for boys.

I say no- drama is a heightening of reality nor reality. Its how it functions- so some male hormones gives you the allowance as a writer to have very violent men if you need them in the story, and women being able to give birth gives you another story angle. Both are exaggerations or exploitations based on biology in either sex.
You cannot take biology out of narrative- who we are physically affects our narratives.

This is not an argument.

[Eldorion]

[Pettytyrant101]

Amy was forced to bear a child, because sex does not indicate consent to have a child. - Mrs Figg

Except we saw her when she thought she was pregnant and there was no indication the pregnancy was in any way unwanted- Amy's main concern in fact was for the unborn childs well-being and what effects travelling in the TARDIS whilst pregnant might have had on the child. But there is not a single line to support the idea she did want the child or to be pregnant.
Amy wants to have the child- so the pregnancy in this case is wanted and conceived normally with her husband.
She is not forced in anyway at all- she knew she was pregnant, she was happy to be pregnant save fears for the potential health of the baby and she wanted to have the baby. There is nothing to indicate the opposite to this.

'We are talking about a kids tv show not adult content'-

yeah because there are no violent angry men ever portrayed in a family show. Come off it.
What you are saying is if a writer uses the female body as a plot device its bad, wrong and evil, but if they use a male body as a plot device its fine and ok. Thats a massive double standard you have there.

[Mrs Figg]

Amy was forced to bear a child, because sex does not indicate consent to have a child. - Mrs Figg

Except we saw her when she thought she was pregnant and there was no indication the pregnancy was in any way unwanted- Amy's main concern in fact was for the unborn childs well-being and what effects travelling in the TARDIS whilst pregnant might have had on the child. But there is not a single line to support the idea she did want the child or to be pregnant.


Only everything that happened after to Amy was of nightmarish proportions. Any normal woman would have had a mental breakdown after the torture she suffered at the hands of the sadistic Writers. The Doctor lied and hid her pregnancy from her, which is creepy, even more creepy the clandestine scanning of her body. Any normal woman would have said to the Doctor, ''listen up Doctor, I am having a child and I want it to be safe, I wont be travelling with you guys for 9 months as running around getting killed is bad for my baby and my stress levels so I'll just put my feet up and have morning sickness in the comfort of my own home''. Any normal father would have agreed and stayed home too. Does either of them do this. Nope they just carry on regardless.

Amy wants to have the child- so the pregnancy in this case is wanted and conceived normally with her husband.
She is not forced in anyway at all- she knew she was pregnant, she was happy to be pregnant save fears for the potential health of the baby and she wanted to have the baby. There is nothing to indicate the opposite to this.

'We are talking about a kids tv show not adult content'-

yeah because there are no violent angry men ever portrayed in a family show. Come off it.
What you are saying is if a writer uses the female body as a plot device its bad, wrong and evil, but if they use a male body as a plot device its fine and ok.  Lame argument, they dont use a male body as a plot device.

Thats a massive double standard you have there. Nope

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

Any normal woman would have said to the Doctor, ''listen up Doctor, I am having a child and I want it to be safe, I wont be travelling with you guys for 9 months as running around getting killed is bad for my baby and my stress levels so I'll just put my feet up and have morning sickness in the comfort of my own home''. Any normal father would have agreed and stayed home too. Does either of them do this. Nope they just carry on regardless.- Mrs Figg

They dont get that chance. When she thinks she is pregnant she is already kidnapped and in the Flesh avatar- but she still wants the baby but then thinks the pregnancy was a false alarm- so it never gets that far into the discussion.
I doubt very much the Doctor would want a baby on the TARDIS- had the Silence not interfered with the time line what you describe is most likely what would have happened.


You said on the other Who thread that it was ok Sarah Jane was kidnapped ect all the time because it was 30 years ago.
But what about Rose- she wasn't 30 years ago?

End of the World- about to be burnt to death, needs rescued by a man, Does nothing proactive save cower until rescued.

Unquiet Dead- chloroformed, kidnapped, put in a carriage full of corpses and then into a coffin.

Dalek- has her DNA stolen without her consent.

Empty Child- somehow ends up dangling form a barrage balloon, about to fall to her death when rescued by a handsome man who she then goes on to flirt shamelessly with throughout the episode even though she is still in a relationship with Mickey- who she has left behind to be ostracised by his community and suspected by the police of her abduction and murder.

Bad Wolf- has her entire being, body and mind possessed by the Heart of the TARDIS.

New Earth - has her body stolen by Cassandra who then uses it to mainly make sexual provocative suggestions to the Doctor or sexually provocative comments about Roses' physicality.

School Reunion- is bitchy and unpleasant to another female former companion over who gets the Doctors attention.

Girl in the Fireplace- captured, tied up and about to have her organs harvested whilst still awake before being rescued by a man.

The Idiots Lantern- has her face stolen! Spends most of the episode literally blank faced and unable to speak.

Doomsday- is helpless to have any effect on her own fate- trapped in another dimension and given a cloned man as compensation.

And I haven't watched the RTD episode in a long time, I am sure there are other examples I am missing.
Why is none of this a problem Mrs Figg?

[David H]

Except even counting all the ones you do its still nowhere near 20. You still cant keep score! (wonder if thats a good or a bad thing in a Mayor)

So out of the Amy/Rory run I make that 1 actual Rory death and 5 episodes conceivably in which a version of one of the main characters dies in another dimension/realm/hallucination.

14 is a lot closer to 20 than it is to 5. Trust me on this

And furthermore, if we count "one of the main characters", then I get to count the times the Doctor dies, which is at least two, and possible several more, depending on how I choose to count it. That should bring me even closer to 20, thank you very much! 

[Pettytyrant101]

By your counting method Picard dies about 8 times in STNG and I'd lose count of Sisko 'deaths' in Ds9!

Even Kirk racks up a few in classic.

I think to count character deaths you have to count actual deaths- not cliffhangers where you dont know, aborted time lines, or alternate dimensions, but times the character actually dies and is brought back.

Which is 2 for Rory and 1 for Amy. (and 1 for Spock in ST!)

[David H]

The difference between our scoring seems to be that you want to do it in-story, where by definition a person can only die once. I'm counting the number of times the writers use the same device.  Isn't it fun to count how many different times Bones says, "He's dead!" or "He's dead Captain!", (and bonus points for "He's dead, Jim!") before going to the commercial?  It's cheesy but it's fun!

By the way, I watched the first bit of Big Bang just now.  Rory is holding Amy's body, and tells the Doctor, "I killed her." (You'd think a nurse would know. You'd think that being shot in the heart at point blank range with a gun that can kill Daleks at a distance would do it. It seems obvious. But anyway...  )

The Doctor says "She's not quite dead....Well, she IS, but it's not the end of the World.... Well it Is....."  

He also explains that the Pandorica will keep her body in stasis, and will be able to repair it only when it can get a sample of her "living DNA" which needs to come from Amelia. So if Amy is alive, what exactly is missing that the Pandorica needs to wait over 2000 years for Amelia?

[Pettytyrant101]

The Pandorica keeps her on the verge of death- its a prison remember, one you cant even escape by dying as it wont let you die- but it doesn't have the necessary info on humans to heal her either- for that it need a sample of her DNA undamaged- so she is kept in stasis in the box until it gets the DNA then the restoration field (same one Doctor uses to save the universe) can restore her to full health.

[David H]

So the gunshot destroyed her heart AND damaged all her DNA irreparably, the Doctor and Rory both refer to her as dead, she remains in that state for over 2000 years with no pulse or breath, only recovering when new DNA is added, and you still maintain she was in some way alive? I want you for my lawyer if I'm ever charged with murder!

[David H]

Any normal woman would have said to the Doctor, ''listen up Doctor, I am having a child and I want it to be safe, I wont be travelling with you guys for 9 months as running around getting killed is bad for my baby and my stress levels so I'll just put my feet up and have morning sickness in the comfort of my own home''. Any normal father would have agreed and stayed home too. Does either of them do this. Nope they just carry on regardless.- Mrs Figg

They dont get that chance. When she thinks she is pregnant she is already kidnapped and in the Flesh avatar- but she still wants the baby but then thinks the pregnancy was a false alarm- so it never gets that far into the discussion.
I doubt very much the Doctor would want a baby on the TARDIS- had the Silence not interfered with the time line what you describe is most likely what would have happened.

I notice you're doing the same thing with Mrs Figg that you're doing with me: slipping back and forth from in-world to out-world as it suits you. "They don't get that chance" precisely because Moffat and co chose not to write a chance for them.

[David H]

By my score keeping I've just won, so I'm headed to the locker room for a shower. We'll have to do this again sometime. Cheers!  

[Amarië]

I think Battlefield Forumshire needs to be added to the Shire map. Bunkers and all!

[Pettytyrant101]

"They don't get that chance" precisely because Moffat and co chose not to write a chance for them. - Amarie

Yes because he is writing Doctor Who, and as as Figg noted above- this isn't Eastenders, its Doctor Who- in which the standard format for 50 years has been companion gets in trouble/kidnapped/abducted- Doctor rescues companion.

[Forest Shepherd]

Even when the Doctor is kidnapped/abducted/in trouble it's usually the Doctor himself who is able to work his way out of it.

[Mrs Figg]

Any normal woman would have said to the Doctor, ''listen up Doctor, I am having a child and I want it to be safe, I wont be travelling with you guys for 9 months as running around getting killed is bad for my baby and my stress levels so I'll just put my feet up and have morning sickness in the comfort of my own home''. Any normal father would have agreed and stayed home too. Does either of them do this. Nope they just carry on regardless.- Mrs Figg

They dont get that chance. When she thinks she is pregnant she is already kidnapped and in the Flesh avatar- but she still wants the baby but then thinks the pregnancy was a false alarm- so it never gets that far into the discussion.
I doubt very much the Doctor would want a baby on the TARDIS- had the Silence not interfered with the time line what you describe is most likely what would have happened.


You said on the other Who thread that it was ok Sarah Jane was kidnapped ect all the time because it was 30 years ago.
But what about Rose- she wasn't 30 years ago?

End of the World- about to be burnt to death, needs rescued by a man, Does nothing proactive save cower until rescued.

Unquiet Dead- chloroformed, kidnapped, put in a carriage full of corpses and then into a coffin.

Dalek- has her DNA stolen without her consent.

Empty Child- somehow ends up dangling form a barrage balloon, about to fall to her death when rescued by a handsome man who she then goes on to flirt shamelessly with throughout the episode even though she is still in a relationship with Mickey- who she has left behind to be ostracised by his community and suspected by the police of her abduction and murder.

Bad Wolf- has her entire being, body and mind possessed by the Heart of the TARDIS.

New Earth - has her body stolen by Cassandra who then uses it to mainly make sexual provocative suggestions to the Doctor or sexually provocative comments about Roses' physicality.

School Reunion- is bitchy and unpleasant to another female former companion over who gets the Doctors attention.

Girl in the Fireplace- captured, tied up and about to have her organs harvested whilst still awake before being rescued by a man.

The Idiots Lantern- has her face stolen! Spends most of the episode literally blank faced and unable to speak.

Doomsday- is helpless to have any effect on her own fate- trapped in another dimension and given a cloned man as compensation.

And I haven't watched the RTD episode in a long time, I am sure there are other examples I am missing.
Why is none of this a problem Mrs Figg?

How come nobody says RTD is sexist then? funny that, nobody rages on the interweb about RTD being a step backwards into 1950s gender role models, nobody rages that Rose's body is being used as a sexist plot device. maybe its because no matter what difficulties Rose, Martha and Donna get into, they are all at the end of the day positive role models for girls.   

[Pettytyrant101]

Perhaps you dont frequent the same Who forums I do then in which there is a large focal 'we hate Rose Tyler she is the worst companion ever' threads, which do indeed include claims that she is a poor role model besotted and defined by the Doctor.
This is Who fandom, you will find a disagreeing party on all sides.

[Mrs Figg]

just for the record I think Rory is a negative role model for boys as well. There is some pretty nasty gender stereotyping going on with him as well.

[Pettytyrant101]

Worse than sad sack Mickey? Really?

[Mrs Figg]

much worse. Mickey grows as a human being and gains self confidence by the end of the RTD run. he has dealt with some of his issues of guilt and grief and has become a hero.