Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

[Forest Shepherd]

Mickey is not terribly commendable as a role model. Rory at least does have a woman he is faithful to (except of course during the stupid divorce period), but Mickey's main stumbling block in life is his faithfulness to Rose.

[Amarië]

RTD, despite inperfections, never introduced his companions as insecure near sexworkers. They are women/girls with a job and you feel you could easily be one of them or met one like them everywhere. They are a moral compass to the Doctor and the viewers can relate to them. Amy is wideeyed, sexy, she seems not overly bright, and needs a man to so she can fine her true calling; housewife and being allowed to become the greatest of all womenly jobs: a Writer. She's a male fantasy woman and you can treat her however you like, she will not be visibily troubled by it.

Rory is Mikey, only more evenly played and he gets the girl, but no glory. He does, I imagine, fuel the Doctor's battle to rescue Amy. No voice of reason, because Rory isbeing human and wanting revenge. At least he is shown as having a natural responce to what has happened, and we get a sense of what has happens in between. Amy is shown in the box, next we see her withthe baby, back to normal, no hint of what has been said and done.

[Mrs Figg]

they were both a bit wimpy and hapless when we first meet them, the difference is that the Doctor actually enhances Mickeys life, he grows and evolves, he goes from being a no hoper to a hero in a badass job, Rory doesnt he remains a whinger with a infinite line in emotional blackmail to the bitter end. He also ends up in a no mans land time period in the 50s, where men where not nurses, so what he would do to earn a living? Rory is stuck with an infertile women who would probably grow to blame him for the impossible choice she had to make. Rory and Amy learn nothing and gain nothing from being the Doctors assistants. Mickey and Rose gain everything they wanted and more.

[Amarië]

Pardon my interesting spelling, small print on the screen and most of it disappears from view while typing.

[Forest Shepherd]

Well, Mickey did want Rose. And so they don't both get everything they wanted.

[Pettytyrant101]

never introduced his companions as insecure near sexworkers. - Amarie

kissogram is not considered a sex worker job in the UK. They go to offices ect and embarrass people in front of their co-workers on their birthdays, or on anniversaries and stuff. As Amy puts it, "Its a laugh."
Amy is flirty and body confident and artistic and hopeless at keeping down a job, so it suits the character she would go for a job lite on responsibility, short working hours but that allowed her to express something about her self and which traded on the one thing she is confident about in herself, her looks.
And what is wrong with a character starting off insecure? Amy is given plenty reason to be after all, and it gives development and an arc and something to overcome.

"They are a moral compass to the Doctor and the viewers can relate to them."



One example of many.

Amy is wideeyed, sexy,

I had no idea having wide eyes and being sexy was sexist. I dont think Karen Gillan can help how she looks and she had a lead role in picking Amy's wardrobe as well.
Given Billie Piper is sexy I dont think saying an actress is sexy can be used as a rod against an actor and a reason why they should not be in the show and are a terrible example to girls, in fact it is pretty weak and off. You are judging her on her appearance.

"she seems not overly bright"

11th Hour- uses her police uniform to gain entry to the hospital, deceives Prisoner Zero by  projecting the image of what it actually looks like- saves the planet.

The Beast Below- notices the relationship between the starwhale and the children, connects it to the history of the how the star whale came to earth, saves the star whale and all the people on Starship UK.

Victory of the Daleks- her compassion and understanding brings out the humanity  the professor and prevents the Dalek bomb detonating when the Doctor fails. Saves the planet.

Vampires in Venice- risks her life to infiltrates the vampire lair for a girl she has never met, discovers the vampires true origins, helps the Doctor with Rory deactivate the storm device.

Cold Blood- pickpockets her interrogator whilst captured to free herself and the other captives, saves the child. Is one of the two people negotiation for earth between the races.

Vincent and the Doctor- her compassion and understanding gives solace and hope to a man who is mentally fragile.

Day of the Doctor- leads the investigation with Canton, uncovers the children's home and what has been going on there.

Curse of the Black Spot- takes on the pirates and saves Rory's life when he is drowning.

Doctors Wife- works out the telepathic lock to gain entry to the console room and saves the day.

A Good Man Goes to War- shows compassion and mercy to an enemy soldier, despite what had been done to her.

Lets Kill Hitler- works out how to deactivate the Tesselector and saves her daughters life.

The Girl Who Waited- hacks the computer system, constructs her own sonic screwdriver, survives alone for over 30 years against a constant adversary.

Dinosaurs on a Spaceship- takes charge of a group, works out the ship is Sillurian and how to access all their records. Defends Rory and his Dad whist they are flying the ship by holding off the dinos.

A Town Called Mercy- calls out the Doctor on his behaviour and makes him realise what he is doing. Ultimately saving a life and possibly many more.

The Power of Three- saves the Doctor life by restarting his hearts.

The Angels Takes Manhattan- sacrifices herself with Rory to cause the paradox that saves New York from the Angels.

That is not nearly all she does, its just the most obvious standout things in these stories.

I dont know how anyone can say Amy is not bright or that you can do anything to her and she wont react.

She bottles stuff up and she tries to hide from uncomfortable truths behind feistiness and outbursts of anger, this has been a trait of her character from the start. Stemming from her 4 psychiatrists who would not believe her story about the Raggedy Man in the box. She learnt not to say what she really felt.

There are examples of it throughout all 3 series, from her pretending not to be Amy even though she could see her raggedy man had come back and not accepting it until she finally does- in an angry outburst. To not telling Rory about her pregnancy because she was bottling up the fear that travelling in the TARDIS whilst pregnant would have affected the development and only reluctantly reveals this much under pressure form the Doctor.
She bottles stuff up and then it all bursts out- this is also true of the divorce thing, much as I dont like that story line, it is a stretch ( in my view) of that aspect of her character- that she would break off with Rory rather than come out with how she actually feels, which she only does in the end in an angry outburst whilst under duress.
I might not like the story line, as its underdeveloped, but it fits her personality in how she deals with things, especially emotional stuff.
Amy always reacts, its just she tends not to react instantly, she bottles it up until it finally escapes-



I dont see a character being consistent as a flaw in the writing, rather its a strength of the writing of the character.


"and needs a man to so she can fine her true calling; housewife and being allowed to become the greatest of all womenly jobs: a Writer."

How how you know she was a housewife and nothing more? Its never said anywhere you are just assuming it- all we know about them after Angels is they adopted a war orphan and Amy wrote children's books. Which despite your disparaging is something I would love to aspire to and achieve, so thanks for considering one of my life's aims to be so worthless.
And why do you say she needs a man, she chooses a man, that's a whole other difference. She falls in love with a man.
Rose needs a man, and she will only accept the Doctor or a copy of him her vision is so narrow, she barely knows him and has just met him and she is presented with him like he is a prize, albeit the consolation prize as he's only a copy.


"you can treat her however you like, she will not be visibly troubled by it."

See above about how Amy bottles stuff up till it gets out- this true of all the things she confronts including her loss of her baby. But its simply untrue to say she is not troubled by any of it, there are plenty of examples where she is clearly troubled by many different things which she tends to reveal in outbursts or in situations of stress.
Also it should be remembered that from Good Man onwards their daughter visits them regularly, its not like they are not in touch and only see her in the episodes we see. And they clearly have a very good and deep relationship, confiding in each other and also having good Mother/daughter times together.


I'll get onto Rory when I deal with Mrs Figg next!  

[Forest Shepherd]

You know, the crux of Quizzical Eyebrow Smirky Girl's argument remains the same but it is not an angel that makes Mary pregnant in the Bible. There is a reason they call Jesus the "Son of God" and not the "Son of Some Angel". It's the Holy Spirit that gets Mary pregnant.
Like I said, the crux of the argument remains the same.

[Amarië]

You are missing the point. They allow her to be a writer, there's not a lot of things she could be. Not remembering the year they wew sent to, but post war ment back to the kitchen for those who had worked in factories and such. Female pilots, welders, etc etc.
The best thing about this is that they are free from the Doctor and CAN settle down and make the best of things, without the temptation of running away. They did seem happy in the life they had (desides the weird divorse thing, at least that is one thing we agree on).

I might like her character if the writing made more sense, it's not fair to make Karen fill in all the blanks. River (forgot actor's name) manages this well. I have said before that it would be interesting to see Karen in her movie, I don't see the range of emotions in her face as I expect and Amy seems fake, bland and not interesting. If this is poor writing, poor directing or poor acting is hard to say. She might simply not be my brand of Buckie.

I had accidentally read the starwhale speach before seeing the episode, it sounded wonderful but was not convincingly delivered.

Also, wideeyed as in staring wideeyed at something, not having bulging fisheyes. Stop accusing me of petty attacks on her body!

[Pettytyrant101]

Not remembering the year they wew sent to, but post war ment back to the kitchen for those who had worked in factories and such. Female pilots, welders, etc etc.- Amarie

Or alternatively they lived in New York through the major years of he civil rights movement as a white couple raising a black daughter (Mels) I dont see Amy sat about in the kitchen much!
You are choosing to imagine her having a future doing nothing, but that would be out of character.
But narratively you hit on the important thing- that they choose to find their happiness in each other, where and when is less relevant than who (rather fittingly)

'it's not fair to make Karen fill in all the blanks'

I dont think she does, I think she brings a lot to the role, but I think the character is all in the writing.

'I don't see the range of emotions in her face as I expect and Amy seems fake, bland and not interesting.'

There we disagree. I think over her run on Who she became a very accomplished actress and she is also well supported by Darvill and Smith of course.
Episodes like the Girl Who Waited, as well as being brilliantly written are mini master classes in acting in my view.

[Amarië]

Different brand of Buckie it is then. At least you know I won't be stealing from your Buckie stash.

[Pettytyrant101]

Noone can get to my buckie stash, it is fiercely protected by my sock mountain, and anyone braving that on a hot summers day is in for trouble   

[Amarië]

Explains why Tin has given up retrieving it, even a grand Valinorian hound like Huan couldn't smell anything through that!

[Pettytyrant101]

Mickey grows as a human being and gains self confidence by the end of the RTD run. he has dealt with some of his issues of guilt and grief and has become a hero.- Mrs Figg

No he doesn't- there is almost no development of Mickey at all- it just happens. One minute he is a hopeless case, fawning on Rose and ineffectual and a complete coward crying in a corner, the next he is shooting up cybermen and being a hero- but there is almost zero development of inbetween or how he got from one to the other. And the last time we see him he is some sort of relationship with Martha shooting at Sontarans (?) out of absolutely nowhere and with zero set up or development. Not even a throwaway line of explanation, nothing.
It is as if half way through they realised Mickey didnt have any sort of role or real personality and so just made him a hero instead out of the blue as an alternative.
Its damn near a complete reinvention of the character out of nowhere.

He is a doormat for Rose- she treats him absolutely appallingly- when we first meet them she is all lovey dovey and smiles with him- soon as she has a chance she runs off without a second thought for him, leaving him to face the accusations of her abduction and murder, then she does it to him again.
And the entire time she is away she not only gives no thought to him she relentlessly flirts with everyone that comes along.
She doesn't think Mickey is good enough for her, she fancies the Doctor something rotten, yet she continues to string poor Mickey along anyway.
She seems to treat being in the TARDIS like a girls holiday in Ibiza- what goes on in the TARDIS stays in the TARDIS. Sorry but for me this is not a good role model for a relationship or how to treat someone who loves you.

Rory on the other hand not only develops immensely from the person we meet in 11th Hour, but we see his development, we see his motivations, we see him understanding the Doctor, and Amy's relationship to the Doctor, and how he deals with that.
Rory starts as a third wheel and ends up a central component in the TARDIS team.
Moffat wanted a married couple, but he never started with a married couple, which he could have. Instead he choose to show us all of Amy's life from when she was a child, and her relationship with Rory, from childhood friends, to adult couple, to marriage and family and finally death. We see the development of their entire relationship and the major landmarks in it.
The notion Mickey is more developed than Rory as a character just seems laughable to me on the evidence.
Mickey gets about half a dozen episodes- half of which he is a hopeless cowering individual in and half of which he is an action hero! Its like two different characters who happen to have the same name and face. It would have made more sense to kill Mickey off and replace him with his counterpart Ricky.

Rory on the other hand is a permanent developing growing companion for two and a half series, there is no comparison.

[Mrs Figg]

Mickey grows as a human being and gains self confidence by the end of the RTD run. he has dealt with some of his issues of guilt and grief and has become a hero.- Mrs Figg

No he doesn't- there is almost no development of Mickey at all- it just happens. One minute he is a hopeless case, fawning on Rose and ineffectual and a complete coward crying in a corner, the next he is shooting up cybermen and being a hero- but there is almost zero development of inbetween or how he got from one to the other.
You need to watch the episodes again because there is a Whole episode in which Mickey changes from hopeless loser to hero. When he visits his gran who died because of his thoughtlessness. he confronts his guilt and stays in the alternate world to make things right, he becomes a man. He stops moaning over a girl who is obviously of a stronger character, and takes responsibility and grows up.

And the last time we see him he is some sort of relationship with Martha shooting at Sontarans (?) out of absolutely nowhere and with zero set up or development. Not even a throwaway line of explanation, nothing.
It is as if half way through they realised Mickey didnt have any sort of role or real personality and so just made him a hero instead out of the blue as an alternative.
Its damn near a complete reinvention of the character out of nowhere.

(see above. you conveniently missed out this crucial character development)

He is a doormat for Rose- she treats him absolutely appallingly- when we first meet them she is all lovey dovey and smiles with him- soon as she has a chance she runs off without a second thought for him, leaving him to face the accusations of her abduction and murder, then she does it to him again.

Rory is a complete and utter doormat and its just another Mickey/Rose plot device, only this time the girl in question (Amy) is not a strong character like Rose was, but a girl who is emotionally damaged and mentally fragile with deep problems, Rory takes advantage of this,and puts up with abuse from Amy because she looks like a super model and he adores her because of the way she looks more than because she has a good personality, 'You’re so beautiful' moans Rory on one of the many occasions when he dies. he gets repeatedly slaughtered in order to hammer home the point that Amy is, for all her supposed independence, slavishly dependent upon him. Its only later, after she has been educated in her role as wife and mother, that he gives any indication of liking anything about her personality. he is the emotionally weak nice guy who thinks he’s entitled to the girl because he helped her move house that time, he hung around during her Raggedy Man Doctor-fixation. He hung around her life, waiting for his time to come. He hangs around pining and taking abuse and thus earns the girl.

And the entire time she is away she not only gives no thought to him she relentlessly flirts with everyone that comes along.
She doesn't think Mickey is good enough for her,

Mickey patently isnt good enough for her in the beginning, and she is in a difficult situation because she cares and feels protective of him, but she knows he is not the person she really wants.

she fancies the Doctor something rotten,

She doesnt proposition the Doctor for sex on a bed like Amy does, indeed Rose is not sexually available at all, the Doctor and Roses relationship is more mature and friendly, its based on them being equals.

yet she continues to string poor Mickey along anyway.
She seems to treat being in the TARDIS like a girls holiday in Ibiza- what goes on in the TARDIS stays in the TARDIS. Sorry but for me this is not a good role model for a relationship or how to treat someone who loves you.

Rose is never drunk, never loutish she doesnt strip off or does she sexually touch the Doctor, the Ibiza thing is in your head.

Rory on the other hand not only develops immensely from the person we meet in 11th Hour, but we see his development, we see his motivations, we see him understanding the Doctor, and Amy's relationship to the Doctor, and how he deals with that.
Rory starts as a third wheel and ends up a central component in the TARDIS team.
Moffat wanted a married couple, but he never started with a married couple, which he could have. Instead he choose to show us all of Amy's life from when she was a child, and her relationship with Rory, from childhood friends, to adult couple, to marriage and family and finally death. We see the development of their entire relationship and the major landmarks in it.
The notion Mickey is more developed than Rory as a character just seems laughable to me on the evidence.
Mickey gets about half a dozen episodes- half of which he is a hopeless cowering individual in and half of which he is an action hero! Its like two different characters who happen to have the same name and face. It would have made more sense to kill Mickey off and replace him with his counterpart Ricky.

Rory on the other hand is a permanent developing growing companion for two and a half series, there is no comparison.

[Pettytyrant101]

You need to watch the episodes again because there is a Whole episode in which Mickey changes from hopeless loser to hero.- Figg

My point in a nutshell!- they re-write him in an episode, 1 episode- he is the opposite person at the end of it than the start- thats not realistic, its not indepth, its not a proper development, from a writing perspective its called cheating.
Its realising you have written the character as a dead end to start with and need to do something ridiculously drastic to save him if you want to keep using him.
Rory is developed over series and is never given a massive personality and character overall just to try to keep him in the stories. He develops over time and through events and experiences.


'You’re so beautiful' moans Rory on one of the many occasions when he dies.- Figg

Yes he does- but what does that mean in the context of what the writers have told us about that phrase- lets see-

'You know sometimes when you meet someone, so beautiful, and then you actually talk to them and five minutes later they're as dull as a brick? But then there are other people, and you meet them and you think, 'yeah, not bad, they're ok' but then you get to know them and their face just sort of becomes them, like their personality is written all over it and they turn into something so beautiful. Rory is the most beautiful man I've ever met'- Amy

So one hand their use of beauty is not the superficial super model stuff you would like to paint it as out of context, and as in this example its Amy calling Rory beautiful I suppose thats sexist too!

"he is the emotionally weak nice guy who thinks he’s entitled to the girl because he helped her move house that time, he hung around during her Raggedy Man Doctor-fixation. He hung around her life, waiting for his time to come. He hangs around pining and taking abuse and thus earns the girl."

He is her boyfriend when we first meet her and they are engaged to be married, we see them as children, best mates with Mels. "It was always Rory"  she says on reflection of her life. The notion of someone not seeing the person they love who is standing right in front of them is hardly  new concept. And its beautifully played out over 3 series.
Hell poor Mickey has it implied in Father Day that Rose imprinted on him like a mother hen, hows that for reducing a male character to someone who is destined to just trail after the girl forever without hope for no good reason!

'Mickey patently isnt good enough for her in the beginning'

Why not? He loves her he cares for her, he is a good guy who is kind, thoughtful and respectful of her, until the Doctor pops up she seems perfectly happy with him- there is not a single indication beforehand their relationship is in any trouble- quite the opposite its presented very positively with them laughing and joking, hugging and hanging out together.
The way Rose deals with relationships is very similar to the way the characters in RTD's Queer as Folk, about the sexual activities of the 90's gay nightclub scene in London, do- pick them up and dump them, dont consider others feelings, move on as you please.

'She doesnt proposition the Doctor for sex on a bed like Amy doe'

No, Amy is more direct and blunt And whats important about that scene is that Amy never goes down that road again, never looks back, never regrets it, and doesn't pine away about the Doctor over it, and the Doctor is immediately horrified and rejects her. Which he should have done with Rose if his moral compass hadn't seemed to have broken.

'the Doctor and Roses relationship is more mature and friendly, its based on them being equals.'

Yeah cause there is nothing wrong or creepy at all about a 900 year old man dating a girl barely out her teens. I'm sure they are equals and him being so much older, with universe knowledge, experienced and having a time machine is in no way taking advantage of a young girl   He should have been locked up after that one.

To claim Rose, a 20 year old from a sheltered upbringing on one housing estate in one planet is the equal to the Doctor, 900years old with the knowledge of time and space who has seen most of history on thousands of worlds is almost as absurd  a notion as the Doctor having a romantic relationship with her. Its wrong on so many levels.

'Rose is never drunk, never loutish she doesn't strip off or does she sexually touch the Doctor, the Ibiza thing is in your head.'

I was talking about her attitude to travelling- which is do as you please and dont think about those you left behind, not your boyfriend or even your own mother. And I dont remember Amy stripping off- Im sure that would have stuck if she had! Nor is Amy ever drunk- we do see her drink a glass of wine but no more.
She doesn't even get drunk at her own wedding, and I can tell you for a Scottish bride, thats damn rare- I've never seen it.

[Mrs Figg]

I hear the clutching of straws.   

[Pettytyrant101]

I hear a lack of consistent argument from you- your defence of Mickey is they rewrote him into an action hero in one story, so thats ok, and Rose is perfect and can do no wrong.

I have always found the Rose/Doctor thing creepy, weird and hugely inappropriate for Who- the Doctor does not have romantic relationships with his companions- his reaction to Amy trying it on is perfect for the Doctor and is how he should always react to such advances from humans. Anything else is getting into creepy territory, And the Rose/Doctor thing is creepy.
Not only that I dont buy it- I cant see what someone like the Doctor would see in Rose, who is selfish and bitchy.

[Mrs Figg]

I hear a lack of consistent argument from you- your defence of Mickey is they rewrote him into an action hero in one story, so thats ok, and Rose is perfect and can do no wrong.

lack of consistent argument? here goes while I demolish your inconsistent argument.

'Mickey patently isnt good enough for her in the beginning'

Why not? He loves her he cares for her, he is a good guy who is kind, thoughtful and respectful of her. Petty

well to quote you directly. ''One minute he is a hopeless case, fawning on Rose and ineffectual and a complete coward crying in a corner'',

so which is it? complete coward or kind and thoughtfull? Mickey was a coward at the beginning, thats why he wasnt good enough for her, as Rose was anything BUT a coward.


I have always found the Rose/Doctor thing creepy, weird and hugely inappropriate for Who- the Doctor does not have romantic relationships with his companions  Petty

there is nothing as creepy as Amy slavering for sex with the Doctor, thats creepy on a kids tv show. There is nothing overt with Rose and the Doctor, he certainly doesnt make corny sexual jokes, slap her bum or make sonic screwdriver  faux jokey comments, but I have rarely seen anything as creepy as River and the Doctor in kids tv, thats cringworthy.



his reaction to Amy trying it on is perfect for the Doctor and is how he should always react to such advances from humans. Anything else is getting into creepy territory, And the Rose/Doctor thing is creepy.
Not only that I dont buy it- I cant see what someone like the Doctor would see in Rose, who is selfish and bitchy.

Its funny that Rose is castigated for things Amy did, ie selfish bitchery, but then sci-fi super models are more easily forgiven than normal looking everyday girls you meet on the Street. In Rose its being bitchy, in Amy she is just being 'feisty'. funny that and a bit sad..

[Mrs Figg]

inconsistent argument part 2.

I have always found the Rose/Doctor thing creepy, weird and hugely inappropriate for Who- the Doctor does not have romantic relationships with his companions Petty

er why does the Doctor having a fucking WIFE then? is that not a romantic relationship? presumably the snogging is fake. presumably the marriage is fake.   

[Pettytyrant101]

so which is it? complete coward or kind and thoughtfull? - Figg

He is written as both- we clearly see his cowardice in the first episode- but we also see his concern and compassion for Rose when she returns.

And no Rose is not a coward- except in her relationships- were she is too cowardly to even tell Mickey its over, instead she cheats on him with english boy from the Dalek episode. And tries to cheat on him with Jack.
Then she heartlessly casts Dalek boy aside -

Doctor- "he's your boyfriend.'

Rose- 'Not any more.'

'there is nothing as creepy as Amy slavering for sex with the Doctor, thats creepy on a kids tv show'

Amy makes a sexual pass, its not creepy it normal, and its utterly rejected. Nor is Who a kids show-never has been- its a family show aimed at all age groups.
River is a mature, grown woman who is also half Time-Lord, making her the only person in the universe left the same species  as him. She is also a part daughter of the TARDIS. And she has experience of travelling in Time and Space.
She is far more suited to be someone the Doctor could form a relationship than some 20 year old kid from earth.

Where is Amy a selfish bitch?- where is there a comparison with Amy to how Rose treats Sarah Jane, or the boy from Dalek, or Mickey for that matter.

Its almost impossible to imagine the Rose era with multiple companions as her character is so selfish you couldn't have had other companions permanently travelling with them.She would not have shared the Doctor.

Amy is feisty- but Rose is outright bitchy and self centred concerning the Doctor. Its all about her and the Doctor, all the time. No one else is allowed a look in or even close.


'er why does the Doctor having a fucking WIFE then? is that not a romantic relationship? presumably the snogging is fake. presumably the marriage is fake.'

River is not a companion- she is the daughter of his companions Amy/Rory and of the TARDIS, she is part Time Lord and only occasionally joins them.


'but then sci-fi super models are more easily forgiven'

Not the first time you have brought up Karens looks as a rod to beat her with- nice.

'normal looking everyday girls you meet on the Street'

Where do you think Karen came from? A box marked supermodel! Before she got Who there is good chance had you been in Inverness you would have seen a perfectly normal, everyday girl called Karen Gillan walking down the street, who just happens to bear a remarkable resemblance to Amy Pond. Presumably any good looking women should be shut away out of sight where they cant offend and never, ever allowed to be a companion in Who!

[Mrs Figg]

inconsistent argument part 3

I have always found the Rose/Doctor thing creepy, weird and hugely inappropriate for Who Petty

Believe me there is nothing, and I mean nothing, as creepy as the Mrs Robinson/Benjamin sickening creepsville banter between River and the Doctor. *shudder*

[bungobaggins]

If she says "Spoilers" one more time.

[Pettytyrant101]

Believe me there is nothing, and I mean nothing, as creepy as the Mrs Robinson/Benjamin sickening creepsville banter between River and the Doctor. - Figg

To you maybe, but there are plenty of River fans out there would disagree.
Moffat at least went out of his way to conceive of a character the Doctor could fall for- she is mysterious, knows all about him, is part Time Lord, and her family connections and connections to the TARDIS make her directly important to him.
At least Moffat put some thought into it.

Rose is wholly inappropriate as someone the Doctor might fall for- she is a child basically, she is human, she is ignorant of the universe has no experience and no mystery  for him- just another in along line of female companions from earth.
He was much closer to Sarah Jane, and for longer, for example than Rose and never a hint of romance.
In fact there has never been a hint of romance with any companion in Who except Rose. Problem is there is nothing about Rose to mark her out as so special compared to previous female companions. There is no justification for it.

If she says "Spoilers" one more time.- Bungo

I am in two minds about if we will hear those words again or not Bungo. Certainly Moffat gave her character a send off regards her relationship with 11 in Time of, and it seemed pretty final. But then we also know that River has met other versions of the Doctor as she jokes she needs the spotters guide of all his faces to keep track.
So its possible she meets 12- or even that 12 still goes back to visit her and take her out whilst she in prison- there is certainly the room in her story for it to have occurred.

My guess is Moffat probably doesnt plan to but has her on the backburner story wise if needed.
Im a big fan of how Alex Kingston played her- a very difficult role playing her at different  ages and in the wrong order. When you watch it all back, spliced together in the right order form her perspective it works perfectly, with her maturing and growing in confidence and understanding until we finally get to the River in library. Its a great performance.

I made this ages ago, unfortunately the sound goes out of synch, so my recommendation is to download them from dailymotion and then you can realign the sound when t goes out of synch manually as you watch-







Its an interesting experience to see it all from her perspective of time.

[Mrs Figg]

'River is a mature, grown woman who is also half Time-Lord, making her the only person in the universe left the same species as him. She is also a part daughter of the TARDIS. And she has experience of travelling in Time and Space.
She is far more suited to be someone the Doctor could form a relationship than some 20 year old kid from earth' Petty

so romantic relationship then.
She is not exactly acting like a mature woman who is part Time Lord when she regenerates while 'concentrating on a dress size' and spends the rest of the episode obsessing over her hair, clothes, shoes and weight. Its great to know that a part Time Lord daughter of the TARDIS an intellegent scientist/archaeologist needs the love of the Doctor to save her from mental instability. This seems intensely hostile and patronising. but the Doctor seems to be sexually aroused by the way she shoots people… which is nice.


Not the first time you have brought up Karens looks as a rod to beat her with- nice. Petty

Its not the first time you have unfairly accused me of attacking Gillan personally, we are talking about the show and how she has been written as a sex object. thats how she is portrayed. Rory is a slave to her sexual power He can’t stop himself staring up her skirt because she’s just too pretty (putting it all on her) But, of course, Rory and Amy are married by this point, so that effectively makes Amy Rory’s property (once they’re married, the Doctor has to ask Rory’s permission to hug her?).

[bungobaggins]

I'd watch it Petty, but I don't have two and a half hours to spare at the moment.