Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

[Mrs Figg]

wow an audio cd, which wasnt broadcast to 10 other countries on the bigscreen. but in your nearest WHSmiths. nice. So we dont actually get a big budget special effects stravaganza, we dont get to see the classic Doctors and their assistants, because they are too old and Moffat only likes them young and attractive preferably with a short skirt. Seeing an old Davidson isnt good for marketing is he. 50th anniversary, no classic Doctors just empty rubbish.

First condescending, and boastful, it wasnt his idea.
Steven Moffat's thoughts on Peter Davison's special The Five(ish) Doctors Reboot."I loved it. I love it, I'm in it! I'm the villain as far as I can see! [Laughs] Absolutely adorable. It was actually my idea to do that, I had bumped into Peter at a party and he said, 'I'm going to do this little fan video about us all trying to get into the 50th. Do you mind and would you be in it?' And I said I'll give you a budget and a camera crew and some time and why don't you make it for real?

Then disrespectful and insulting.
"It maximises what you can do with Sylvester [McCoy] and Colin [Baker] and Peter because they’re not the same people were, all those years ago. You get to see Colin Baker playing Colin Baker which is much more fun that seeing him trying to do a performance that no longer suits him, frankly. " Moffat

[Pettytyrant101]

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to prove here.   

The classic Doctors were involved in the 50th celebrations- they got to star in their own BF special which they all have been working at for years now doing new adventures.
The 5-ish Doctors was a big hit and they are making another one.
McGann also got a whole mini special to himself and was finally given a regen.

Sticking every living Doctor into the 50th just because, even when some like Colin dont even look recognisably like they once did any more, would have been a mistake. Too many Doctors, none of them getting the screen time- see the Five Doctors for that and you'd be talking about having 9 here. It would be a mess.

Moffat is friends with Davidson, 5 is Mofftas favourite Doctor and he wrote Time Crash when 10 meets 5 for him.

The idea evil Moffat is sitting there cackling evilly at the classic Doctors not getting in the 50th is ludicrous. This is you're most desperate attempt yet to try to paint him as the evil bad guy.

[Mrs Figg]

not desperate, I am just going off his own words and actions, which make him look a bit of a twat. millions of people were expecting the 50th anniversary to be a celebration of 50 years of Who, actually see past Doctors onscreen, yes we know they are not the same looking people but fans dont care, they want to see their Doctors, albeit fatter and older. A lot of people were disappointed it wasnt really a celebration at all, it was more like badly written fanfiction. Moffat obviously had to jolly along with it, he isnt stupid. plus the Fiveish Doctor video was a great hit with fans, so it wouldnt have been a mess at all, theres proof it can work wonderfully well.

[Pettytyrant101]

Its a comedy mockumentary about them trying to get into the 50th- making a joke out of what you are trying to present here as a serious issue. A joke Moffat is in on and takes part in.

How can you call an episode, writing by the showrunner fan-fiction? That doesn't make any sense   

By a strange coincidence I was putting together a list for Dvaid of recommended classic episodes to watch before seeing the 50th to greater enjoy picking up on all the references and threads, so I have no idea what you are on about regards the 50th not being a celebration of the shows history.

[Mrs Figg]

because its nothing much to do with it. The War Doctor is not canon, it just jumped out of nowhere. Most of that episode is new stuff Moffat invented for it. Wheres the celebration of 50 years? Tennant and Piper turning up? Tom Baker turning up for two minutes? I dont think its got anything to do with celebrating past Who, but celebrating moffats ego. The opportunity was squandered to celebrate with respect all the past Doctors still alive while there was still chance. The other fringe events like Fivish Doctors and the audeo cd is just that, on the fringe, and it should have been more important. Less War Doctor crapola, more classic Who.

[Pettytyrant101]

Anything the writers put in an episode is by definition canon- thats how it happens.
The concept of the War Doctor was to replace Eccelston who turned down the chance to come back as the Doctor who fought in the Time War, leaving a gap- it couldn't be 8 as it would be totally against his character as established in the BF series.
As a writer faced with a dilemma and no time I think what Moffat actually came up with was superb and worked a treat.

And the 50th is full of stuff from across the 50 years from the very first shot onwards.
We got an excellent set of 50th programs- night, day, adventure, light and 5-ish doctors- there is nothing to complain about.

And Moffat almost certainly couldn't do everything he wanted anyway- the budget for the episode was no different than for a normal finale but they had to do it in 3-D and good enough to stand up to a cinema screening. Cash was tight and as Moffat always says, he never gets the cash he wants to get. So who knows what constraints he was given to work within.

I dont think either that the Big Finnish audio adventures are fringe, they have a huge following worldwide and have been going for years.

[Mrs Figg]

it was a wasted opportunity. but its too late now.    I really hope Capaldi brings it.   I need my optimism restored.

[Pettytyrant101]

Well I enjoyed it and I thought he did a very good job given the pressure, expectation and budget he was working under.
A terrifying prospect to write too.

[Mrs Figg]

I was just expecting something completely different.

[David H]

there is nothing to complain about.

  

[Pettytyrant101]

I was just expecting something completely different.- Figg

Actually I think that happens a lot for some people with Moffat's writing.

Dave- I really cant think of a complaint large enough to be worth it. You havent seen the episode yet so dont want to go into detail but I thought it was a romp full of moments that make you smile, a joyous celebration of Who and a good solid idea behind it that sets the show up nicely for the future.

[Mrs Figg]

nope. I didnt find it joyous at all. Elizabeth 1 cheesed me off big time.

[Eldorion]

How can you call an episode, writing by the showrunner fan-fiction? That doesn't make any sense   

Well, speaking generally, that's one of the problems with long-running series of any sorts.  After a while, the newer generations of writers turn out to be people who grew up as fans of the series.  That might sound good at first, but many fans don't really understand what makes the things they love good.  Not saying that's the case with Moffat because I haven't seen enough Who to judge, but the line between "canon" (which is nebulous in the best of circumstances) and fanfiction can get fuzzy sometimes.

[Pettytyrant101]

the newer generations of writers turn out to be people who grew up as fans of the series- Eldo

In Who that would apply from the late 70's onwards!

Also Who canon is even more nebulous than most, as its a story about someone who alters the time-lines every time he turns up and changes history.

[Eldorion]

True, I suppose 15 years would be long enough. Heck, The Simpsons started showing signs of this phenomenon after a mere 10 years.

Fair point about the time lines, though that doesn't seem to stop people from (perceived?) disliking changes to the tone of show.

[Pettytyrant101]

When I started watching Who (3rd Doctor) it was an action adventure with occasional thriller/spy elements. Then when the 4th Doctor came along it went from action adventure through gothic horror and into comic adventure finishing on hard core scifi, the 5th Doctor was mainly action-adventure with some surrealism thrown in, 6th didn't know what it was and didn't last because of it, 7 started as comic adventure and ended in dark scifi thriller territory with social and political undertones.
9 was action adventure again with occasional gothic horror elements. 10 did the lot, horror, comedy, thriller, drama as did 11 but threw fairytale into the mix.

Who doesn't have a tone- that's is why there is so much room for argument between eras of the show, its also why its lasted 50 years.

[Amarië]

There was a question about Amy's dark side I didn't have time to reply to.

I am trying to remember my reaction to her killing Kevorkian(sp?). I think I was more like "Okeeey? At least there is some reaction to all that's happened...", I think I was more shocked how it was actually addressed later in the (rather nice actually) scene in the garden with River.

Everybody has a dark side, growing up does that to people. Amelia is Sweet Amelia because he only met her once and children are innocent and sweet.

[Pettytyrant101]

Kovarian (for the spelling)

I like the garden scene a lot, its one of my favourite Mother/daughter scenes, as its one of the few where we get to see them domestically and wish we had one or two more of those scenes dotted about, but the way the story unravels there is not a lot of time for them after the River identity reveal.

I still think there is a genuine innocence to Amelia that starts to erode after her encounter with the Doctor and all she has to go through with everyone else thinking she is mentally ill, and no doubt treating her that way.
At her wedding when she starts going on about her 'raggedy man' her mother tries to apologise for her, "Oh no, not this again. The psychiatrists we sent her too.."

Amy presumably had a whole childhood of this sort of attitude- being disbelieved by everyone whilst at the same time being an embarrassment to her family.
I think the difference between Amelia and Amy is revealed when adult Amy introduces herself and the Doctor replies, "But you were Amelia, that was a great name."

And she retorts, "Bit fairytale."

[Amarië]

Heh, I wonder if Kevorkian might be some murdering doctor from the States...

I started wondering what she might have become if the Doctor didn't stop by for a midnight snack. Might be a good thing though that Amy learned to hang on to memories others said weren't real.

[Pettytyrant101]

Very true.
If he hadnt met Amelia the Kovarian faction would still have been out to stop him getting to Trenzalore one way or the other- but no part timelord River to use, so they would need a very different set of plans.