Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

[Orwell]

{{{URGENT ENCRYPTED MISSIVE TO ELDO: So the Dark Planet Solution wasn't just my delusion... it just took longer than I anticipated.... But Petty... a Conspirator all along?   Amarie has made a vital mistake... two encryption brackets don't cut it! She's become complacent in her arrogance!   }}}

[Pettytyrant101]

does old Amy die alone and abandoned? Yes.- Amarie

No. Where do you get this from?- all we know for certain is she dies a few years after Rory does- but statistically thats perfectly normal, wives usually outlive husbands by a few years because they dont have to listen to all the nagging!
Nor do we know she died alone- unlikely she did, I would expect at least their adopted son to have been there for her, high possibility of Melody being there too. Hardly alone, hardly abandoned- who abandons her?

'Is everything besides the wedding night INCLUDING THE BABY taken from her? She gives birth in a box! Not knowing she was pregnant. '

The plot is the bad guys want her child because of future events. So yes they abduct her and once she gives birth kidnap her child- they are the bad guys, that's the sort of things bad guys do which denotes them as the bad guys.
They are in fact not interested in Amy save as a sort of vaguely religious figure to them (the Silence tell her "We do you honour" when they kidnap her, but its River they want, but for River to be any good to them they have to bring out the Time Lord traits and accelerate the effects of the Vortex on human tissue- so they have to get her whilst the baby is still in development.
And she thinks she is pregnant, then after her body is kidnapped she thinks she isn't because the Flesh avatar isn't. And whilst she does give birth in a box (Id say it was more a tube myself) it is a box containing amazing future medical tech, and with the importance of her to the Kovarian- in terms of physical well being she probably couldn't be safer.

The question for me is not is this an attack on womanhood, I think to view it that way you have to be looking for something to find to complain about to start with, but is it a valid story set up and plot?

Well pregnant women being abducted because of the importance of the child they bear is nothing new to history or fiction, it has a Who twist here in terms of the people doing the kidnapping being from the future and the baby being special because of effects of conception in the time vortex, but beyond that its not a new concept in either fiction or reality.
What I find more interesting is what it tells us about the character of Amy- her decisions after the abduction of her child I think show her strengths of character, as well as being honest to human nature.
Amy has the intellectual capacity and the strength of emotion to choose not to go back and get her own daughter, which they could do at any point, because doing so would wipe out the grown up daughter she has come to know.
Its a hell of a moral dilemma, one she copes extremely well with.
But doing so still hurts like hell- it might be the right thing to do, but its not the easy thing to do, and Amy certainly is strong enough to live by her choices, but she is also human enough to feel the pain of them.
Perfectly summed up by her when she finally confronts Kovarian-

'You took my baby from me, and hurt her, and now she is all grown up and she's fine. But I'll never see my baby again."

I'm with Karen Gillan when she says you rarely get to see female characters as well rounded, layered, complex and developed as Amy Pond.

[chris63]

[Pettytyrant101]

[Amarië]

Old, aborted timeline Amy dies alone and abandoned. Spose that's not actually right to say old though, simply too old to be of value poor girl.

She does cope very well, the parts where she doesn't is not shown and can be seen as the writers pretending it doesnt matter.

Also, you claiming it's super fun to give birth cause there's nifty gadgets around is such an ignorant comment that even the Buckie refuses to take the blame for the injuries you will sustain if you say this to a woman. You have been warnef, there WILL be dreadful birthstories heading your way as well as beatings. Insert pale faced smiley here.

That aside though. All that tech and no c-section? Why risk the complications of a birth? The stress caused by all this is surely damaging to the precious baby. Amy would not be able to calmly press this baby out like it's no big deal in her state. It doesn't make sense, trust me on this.

[Pettytyrant101]

Old, aborted timeline Amy dies alone and abandoned. Spose that's not actually right to say old though, simply too old to be of value poor girl- Amarie

I couldn't disagree more strongly- the entire point of that epiosde is that old Amy is of exactly equal value to young Amy- thats the entire moral point.
It is also an allegory for their own situation with River.
The adult River they know is of equal value to the baby Melody she was. They can no more go back and change her past, and so destroy the River they know, than it was right to destroy old Amy in favour of young.
You seem to have the point of that episode entirely wrong.

'She does cope very well, the parts where she doesn't is not shown and can be seen as the writers pretending it doesnt matter.'

Again I cant agree- its not a soap opera, an episode of Amy and Rory grieving is not very Who. The old Amy episode addresses all the issues raised and deals with the emotional realisation of the situation.
It is not that the writers dont care, they cover the issues, just not directly ntil Amy confronts Kovarian.

'you claiming it's super fun to give birth cause there's nifty gadgets around is such an ignorant comment that even the Buckie refuses to take the blame for the injuries you will sustain if you say this to a woman'

I dont remember saying super fun! My point was that usually in such tales they are dragged off to a cave or such like. Amy was never in any physical danger, plenty psychologically, but never physical danger. Her body was never in physical peril or under threat. And had she not been kidnapped she would still have been giving birth, just under presumably better, less shocking circumstances.

[Mrs Figg]

In Moffat’s episodes women are overwhelmingly defined by their traditional gender roles or bodily functions.
The show repeatedly reduces Amy to the roles by which patriarchy constructs femininity: girlfriend, fiancée, wife, mother.  The threats she faces are forced pregnancy (rape), the abduction of her baby, the loss of either of the men she loves, infertility, and the idea that it's presumable that the man she loves will reject her for that infertility. Tired tropes that lie behind soap operas.

They show a woman who, having been violated with an unwanted pregnancy and birth, only to have her baby stolen from her, we were never given any real sense that the experience had been traumatic for her. Moffat made the choice to put the forced pregnancy/rape in there,  there was no indication that the Amy found it unpleasant. Amy wasn’t 'forced' to bear a child because she had consented to have sex with Rory. But consenting to sex is not consenting to be pregnant. Furthermore, Amy’s pregnancy was an extreme violation of her bodily autonomy. She remained captive, against her will, completely unaware that she was pregnant until she was returned to her real body by the Doctor while she was in labour and suffering from extreme pain. She did not know about the pregnancy and therefore could not consent to be pregnant
Even Amy's loss of the baby, abducted not long after birth, turns out to carry no emotional weight.  Amy and Rory go through whole episodes barely mentioning it.  clearly post-natal depression isn't a factor in Moffat's universe.
Amy and Rory have easily let it go, the fact that the version of older Amy left for years never mentions it makes a mockery of anyone still claiming this is a show with any sense of emotional consequences or human resonance.

The characters used to be healthy role models for younger viewers. It's difficult to see how Amy can do this in moments where she's asking the Doctor to "sort her out" in a bedroom scene.

There’s even a ‘comedy’ episode in which Amy is said to have used her sexuality to pass her driving test, is split into two people and literally fancies herself, The rest of the 'laughs' come from Rory staring up Amy’s skirt… because it’s hilarious to violate her privacy without consent! , a glass floor causes Rory, working at the controls below, to crash the TARDIS. As a result, we end up with multiple Amy Ponds. Instantly, we have a gag about Rory hoping for a threesome, the revelation that Amy finds herself attractive, and its accompanying punchline that Rory finds this exciting. nice.

[David H]

In Moffat’s episodes women are overwhelmingly defined by their traditional gender roles or bodily functions.

Gender roles play a big part in the development of all the characters in the series.

As I commented on when I was watching them,  most of the men who have any character development at all are in a non-traditional gender role (the kid in Night Terror with the doll house, or the guy with the cyber-rats (Craig?), or the gay characters we've talked about, etc., etc., etc.)

That's just fine to a point.

But I challenge you {{Petty}} to name a list of episodes in which gender roles are NOT explored AND neither Amy NOR Rory die.

If you can't count them on the fingers of one hand and still pick your nose, I'll be surprised. 

[Pettytyrant101]

The show repeatedly reduces Amy to the roles by which patriarchy constructs femininity: girlfriend, fiancée, wife, mother.  - Mrs Figg

Those roles are normal roles for a women in life.  Most women I know are or have been at least one of those thnigs, many of them all of them. I must tell them what victims of sexism they are, they will be outraged!
Rose qualifies for the first two roles and when she leaves the series she is eyeing up being the last two!

"The threats she faces are forced pregnancy (rape), the abduction of her baby"

"having been violated with an unwanted pregnancy and birth"

I take real offence every time you repeat this ridiculous charge as you you know its ridiculous, and you are not really that stupid to repeat it without knowing its ridiculous. So I wish you wouldn't.

Amy is NEVER EVER raped or violated- she conceives the baby, by consent, with her husband, in the normal fashion, on heir wedding night when she is delightfully happy. The birth is neither unwanted nor forced upon her.

The birth being unknown is not the same as not wanting the birth at all, for all we know her and Rory had planned to have a child a soon as possible. And being abducted whilst pregnant and being raped are two whole different kettles of fish. You should be ashamed to put being abducted on the same level with being raped.

'Even Amy's loss of the baby, abducted not long after birth, turns out to carry no emotional weight.  Amy and Rory go through whole episodes barely mentioning it. '

I disagree- the girl Who waited is the second episode after the Demons Run episode and is all about the emotional fall out and consequences of their baby, and its only two episodes from there to Amy confronting Madame Kovarian over it and taking action against her for her.

'clearly post-natal depression isn't a factor in Moffat's universe.'

I had no idea every single women who is pregnant gets post natal depression!

'the fact that the version of older Amy left for years never mentions it '

It doesn't need mentioned, its what the entire episode is about!

"It's difficult to see how Amy can do this in moments where she's asking the Doctor to "sort her out" in a bedroom scene. "

But fine when Rose was picking up and dumping guys like sweets and telling Jack how free and very available she is whilst she is supposed to be in a long term relationship with Mickey? Very healthy role model for young girls- cheat and lie, you'll have more fun.

'episode in which Amy is said to have used her sexuality to pass her driving test, is split into two people and literally fancies herself'
That line and the up the skit moment are both not from an episode- they are from a sketch written for Comic Relief.
But even if they were- Rose -"are the words distract the guard coming my way?" or when flat women takes over her body and spend an episodes feeling herself up and down and shoving her cleavage at the camera every other minute? For that matter some of Jacks stuff- jokes about sleeping with both his executioners, a married couple, at the same time? Seeing Rose from the barrage balloon, zooming his binoculars in on her arse and making personal remarks about her physical shapeliness?

I dont mind you dont like these things in Who, but at least be consistent- you are far to busy being determined to lay the blame on Moffat as a one man woman hating machine ruining Who, whilst utterly ignoring all manner of similar story elements in other eras of Who.


But I challenge you {{Petty}} to name a list of episodes in which gender roles are NOT explored AND neither Amy NOR Rory die. - David

Um most episodes- it would be easier to list those which are than aren't.

In series 5 for example  I would say there are 3 at most out of thirteen that could be said to have gender roles define a notable part of the story (and Im being generous there and including the final reveal of Amys wedding dress in 11th Hour, even though it has nothing prior to them to do with defining the story or character until that reveal), and there is only 1 in which Rory dies, two if you include the dream version but its one of the other gender based episodes- Amy's Choice. So yeah 3 out of 13 at best.

[David H]

But I challenge you {{Petty}} to name a list of episodes in which gender roles are NOT explored AND neither Amy NOR Rory die. - David

Um most episodes- it would be easier to list those which are than aren't.

In series 5 for example  I would say there are 3 at most out of thirteen that could be said to have gender roles define a notable part of the story (and Im being generous there and including the final reveal of Amys wedding dress in 11th Hour, even though it has nothing prior to them to do with defining the story or character until that reveal), and there is only 1 in which Rory dies, two if you include the dream version but its one of the other gender based episodes- Amy's Choice. So yeah 3 out of 13 at best.

I think we must count "exploring gender roles" differently then. It's been a while since I watched them, and I certainly don't know them as well as you do, but I distinctly remember thinking while watching the Vampires in Venice episode, "This is starting to get a bit heavy handed on the gender role thing."  Although I was mostly watching for fun, and they're mostly pretty good fun, I still remember from there on noticing the gender-role note being hit in most episodes.

I also seem to remember that you don't count all the Rory-deaths that I do. The one where he's painting "Kill Amy" on the walls of the Tardis in his own blood and excrement, for example. Sure, it later proved to not be "real" (or was it? The whole idea of reality gets bungled up with the "Amy's Memory = Reality" concept. So many logical holes!  ), but on my scorecard it's still a death. I seem to remember there were almost 20 episodes in which either Amy or Rory died in some form or other, though some episodes may have gotten counted more than once for multiple deaths. I can't remember now.....  

Anyway, we clearly have different rules for scorekeeping. Nothing wrong with that really.

[Pettytyrant101]

I dont think its different score keeping- I think your memory is out.
20 episodes in which they die?
There are only 3 series of 13 episodes.

Series 5-
11th Hour- no death.
Beast Below- no death.
Victory of the Daleks- no deaths.
Amy's Choice- Rory gets 'killed' by Mrs Pogget. Not a real death though as none of its real.
Hungry Earth/Cold blood- Rorys' real death.
Vincent and the Doctor- no death.
Time of Angels/Flesh and Stone -Amy is dying from the Angel in her head, but she is saved, so no death.
The Lodger- no death.
Pandorica Opens/Big Bang- no death, Amy brings Rory, the Doctor and her family back.

Series 6-

Impossible astronaut/day of the Moon- there is a deception where they all appear to die to avoid detection. No actual deaths.
Curse of the Black Spot- Rory drowns and is held on the verge of death until saved. Half a death!
The Doctors Wife- Rory 'death' in the TARDIS.
Rebel Flesh/Almost People- no death.
A Good Man Goes to War- no death
Lets Kill Hitler- no death.
Night Terrors- ha a joke about dying!
The Girl Who Waited- old Amy dies.
The God Complex- no death.
Closing Time- no death
The Wedding of River Song- no deaths

Series 7
Asylum of the Daleks- no death
Dinosaurs on a spaceship- no death
A Town Called Mercy- no death
The Power of Three- no death
The Angels Take Manhattan- Amy and Rory die.

So out of the Amy/Rory run I make that 1 actual Rory death and 5 episodes conceivably in which a version of one of the main characters dies in another dimension/realm/hallucination.

Thats 15 short of 20 David!

Although I am curious, using that episode list which episodes would you list as 'exploring gender' episodes?

[David H]

I'm afraid I can't put the brainpower into this right now Petty. I've got a lot of Real Life occupying the greymatter.  (Im only checking in here at Forumshire while I wait for my email to load, so this is technically work....)  But are you sure that's a complete list? I was sure the Vampire episode was in Series 5.  

I know I as I was getting into the series I was counting main character deaths as if it were a drinking game, so perhaps I was being a little less critical than you.  Someday when I've got more time I'll go back and do my homework on this for you.   

BTW I do agree that the series is very clear that Melody is conceived romantically (certainly not of rape) and that her love and longing for both her parents is central to her character.  However I can also easily see how the whole kidnapping thing could feel like a symbolic rape.  And face it, "symbolically" is how literature has almost always talked about rape historically, so I understand the confusion.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yeah sorry, missed Vampires off the list when writing it out   - though none of the main characters die in that either so makes no difference to the final count.
But I have listed every death, fake death and any other sort on that list- its still only 5 episodes.

'I can also easily see how the whole kidnapping thing could feel like a symbolic rape.'

I dont see it that way, I think they go out of there way to avoid that in fact.
But it really angers me when rape is casually banded about in relation to River's conception. Its not only literally wrong I think falsely accusing someone of rape in real life is a hideous crime that not only can destroy a life but undermines genuine claims of those who have been abused.
This might just be a character but I find the false accusation of rape just as distasteful and unwarranted.

[David H]

I don't think anybody was actually accusing Rory of being a rapist. I understand the logical steps that got you there, but I don't think that was intended.

I don't see flesh- Amy's death in that list, and I could probably think of a couple others you missed (she was every bit as much Amy as Centurion Rory was Rory in my opinion). That said, I probably counted half-deaths and Dr-deaths in there too. Remember that I started watching a selection of episodes that you'd made for me which excluded ones that you felt needed to be seen in context, so there may have been a death-distillation process that increased the concentration at first, and after that, as I said, it became a drinking game....

[Pettytyrant101]

I don't think anybody was actually accusing Rory of being a rapist.- David

The threats she faces are forced pregnancy (rape)- Mrs Figg

Seems like it to me. But there is nothing forced about her pregnancy at all. Its simply an unwarranted distasteful claim based on nothing.

'I don't see flesh- Amy's death in that list'

Flesh Amy has no conciousness, its real Amy projected into the Flesh copy, like having a real life avatar. But even if you do include that one that is still only 6 episodes out of what 36 or something.

[David H]

Sorry Petty, I've got to count Flesh-Amy. I've got to count Amy's Choice and Black Spot too. And I've got to count Angels take Manhattan as two. Does that bring me to eight or nine? I don't know. And I still feel there are at least a couple more we're missing.

[Pettytyrant101]

I would argue the toss over Flesh as its just a receptacle for Amy's conciousness not independent life in itself and no main character dies. The signal is merely cut off and Amy wakens in her real body. So its not really a death.

I already counted Amy's Choice and Black Spot (as a half death- as technically Rory doesn't die in that he is kept on the verge of drowning until revived).

So even doubling up on Angels Take Manhattan, which I'm not sure is entirely fair, that still only gives you one more death.
But in terms of counting episodes its still is only one episode even if a character dies twice in it. You claimed 20 episodes in which  one of them dies.

[David H]

You claimed 20 episodes in which  one of them dies.

That's a bit of an overstatement, as was mine.

I seem to remember there were almost 20 episodes in which either Amy or Rory died in some form or other, though some episodes may have gotten counted more than once for multiple deaths. I can't remember now.....

Several years ago I had a bout with leukemia which involved 19 "close calls" (Nobody should ever get to know all the ICU nurses by first name.  ) I remember thinking while watching Dr Who that Rory and Amy were gaining on my score fast. That's where my shoot-from-the-hip number of "almost twenty" came from.

[Pettytyrant101]

Amy's Choice- Rory dies in the false reality and wakes up in normal reality.

His death at the end of Cold Blood (his only actual death until the end) and technically he doesn't die here either, he is absorbed by the light and through the cracks in the universe before he dies from where Amy later retrieves him.

Roman Rory in Big Bang, although its debatable if you can count Roman Rory as a death in Pandorica- as he never actually dies in it, and Rory's memories are continuous from before to after. Its more a change of state.

In Day of the Moon he is fake shot along with Amy as a subterfuge.

Curse of the Black Spot Rory nearly drowns to death.

The Doctors Wife Amy sees  an aged crazed Rory, and then a dead Rory as part of House messing with her head.

In the Almost People Flesh avatar Amy is destroyed.

Night Terrors Rory jokes that they are 'dead, again!' but they aren't they are just inside the dolls house.

The Girl Who waited old Amy dies.

The Angels Take Manhattan- Rory dies of old age in the hotel an then sacrifices himself to cause the paradox and then finally really does die of old age in the past of New York with Amy.

I'm fairly certain I haven't missed any out.

I make that 8 Rory deaths in 6 episodes and that's including some dubious ones in my view such as Roman Rory and some doubling up of episodes, such as Angels with two deaths, and cases where he doesn't actually die, such as the drowning.

For Amy the count is 3 and that's including her Flesh Avatar and old Amy.

[David H]

How about when plastic Roman Rory shoots Amy with his gadget hand? I'd definitely count that!

[David H]

Actually I probably counted Pandorica twice, because Amy was dying in both the first and the twenty-first century in the two different halves of the episode, but I'll concede that point if you like.

[David H]

I just reviewed your scoring:
I'll agree with 8 deaths for Rory for now (though I'm not convinced there still aren't 1 or 2 more....)
Now for Amy:

Pandorica

Big Bang

Day of the Moon

Almost People

Girl Who Waited

Angels take Manhattan

That all adds up to 6,  and brings the total for both Amy and Rory to 14. We're getting closer.....

[Pettytyrant101]

Amy doesn't die in Pandorica in any of the time frames   She is just shot and put in the Pandorica to heal.
I still dont think you can count the Flesh as a character death as the character isn't even there to die and obviously doesn't die.

And 8 for Rory, but a pretty dodgy 8 counting deaths I wouldn't and episodes twice- like Roman Rory, or drowning Rory- neither of which are actual deaths.

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

I note no Amy in that vid, or mention of her- probably because Amy's birth doesn't qualify as a 'mystical' birth as there is nothing mystical about it. Both conception and birth happen normally- the circumstances are far from normal but not the conception or the manner of birth.

I also strongly disagree when she says "some of us can have babies but that doesn't mean you can use that in your story"- why not?
Some men have elevated hormone levels and are prone to exceptional levels of violence- but I dont know anyone who has regularly displayed the sort of male violence casually portrayed in drama on a regular basis, should we ban all portrayals of violent men in tv and film however has sexist as its a violation of male bodies being exploited for narrative purposes?
I say no- drama is a heightening of reality nor reality. Its how it functions- so some male hormones gives you the allowance as a writer to have very violent men if you need them in the story, and women being able to give birth gives you another story angle. Both are exaggerations or exploitations based on biology in either sex.
You cannot take biology out of narrative- who we are physically affects our narratives.