Re: Alternative Doctor Who/Sherlock thread

[Eldorion]

Me: Imaginary Mr Moffat, if you think that losing once to an exceptional woman is enough to stop Sherlock Holmes from being the best character in his own show, then we really do have a problem.

Not that I disagree with her overall point, but I don't think that Sherlock truly loses to anyone in the show, which is kind of another problem for a different reason (IMO).

[Forest Shepherd]

I thought the argument rather tedious.

If Moffat is subtly, almost unconsciously, perpetuating sexism than so be it. The world moves on, people and culture change. Two well-loved television series are not going to make that big of a difference. The world is too big to be affected. It's no big deal, and let's get over ourselves.

[David H]

I'm afraid that's not even an option, Forest. The Discussion of Female Characters in Moffat Shows (DoFCiMS for short) has been going on almost continuously for 3 years.

It's as fundamental to the structure of Forumshire as the Discussion of Purism vs. Liberalism, or the Discussion of Dwarven Beards, without which we'd most likely implode! 

[Amarië]

So true, so true... It's hard work but someone has to do it.

Sherlock is getting a bit Mary-Sue, brilliant at everything, expert speach holder and loved by all. And a jealous 3-year-old to create an emotinal cliffhanger... Wonder if I think it will make more sense in the next season, if he'll seem like one character rather than two or three.

[Mrs Figg]

I thought the argument rather tedious.

If Moffat is subtly, almost unconsciously, perpetuating sexism than so be it. The world moves on, people and culture change. Two well-loved television series are not going to make that big of a difference. The world is too big to be affected. It's no big deal, and let's get over ourselves.

of course you found it tedious, you're a guy.   only women dig this kind of nit picking.  

and actually I totally disagree it wont make any difference, just think how many millions of kids watch these shows, they are soaking up social constructions like sponges, unconsciously learning how to deal with the opposite sex that goes on to sexist attitudes in adulthood. we are all influenced by the tv shows we watched as youngsters, some are healthy and positive role models some are not, Dr Who is a kids show and they have of duty of care, specially for vulnerable girls with many social pressures on their shoulders. Its not ok to be flippant about these things and if the women they see on tv are all sexed up needy fangirls, its not going to help with self esteem.

[Amarië]

Amen!

[Pettytyrant101]

I'll get back to this Figg- seems I didn't have enough buckie to get through that post   

I'll say this so far for imaginary conversations though- its amazing how the imaginary person, in defending themselves always leads the interviewer neatly into exactly the next compliant they wished to raise- useful that.


Its not ok to be flippant about these things and if the women they see on tv are all sexed up needy fangirls, its not going to help with self esteem. -Figg


I find this difficult to accept going on my own personal experience.
In my family I have two nieces who are massive Who fans, and massive Amy fans.
My best mate has three kids all massive Who fans, one girl, two boys. The girl is an Amy fan, but so are the boys. And the girl is a bright, intelligent tomboy- who loves digging or fossils with her Dad.
Who does not seem to have undermined her sense of self worth through its portrayal of women (she wants to be River when she grows up so she can be an archaeologists and have adventures).

Only the other week I was with my nieces, one of them has been too scared to go on the big slide at the local swing park- but they had been watching Who beforehand and she said, "Amy would do it, even if she was scared," and that gave her the courage to go on the big slide for the first time.

So self esteem issues?- I dont see any evidence of it in the children I know who are fans of Who and of Amy Pond in particular.
Who from what I can tell directly is doing what it did when I was a child- its inspiring imagination, its inspiring children to face up to fears and its entertaining them at the same time. And I have always viewed that side of Who as the most important thing about Who- and I see no evidence that core element has been lost.

[Mrs Figg]

Its a lot more subtle than you think, on the face of it Amy is a thoroughly modern young woman, balsy and assertive, thats all very well but scratch the surface a bit and the cracks begin to show. Its all vey well saying 'my niece loves Amy' of course she does, she ticks all the boxes to be admired by girls, but there is an undercurrent of unpleasantness which you just dont get with Rose, Martha or Donna, but you do get with Amy, River and to a lesser extent Clara because Clara doesnt really have a personality other than existing to save the Doctor through time and space.

[Pettytyrant101]

Its all vey well saying 'my niece loves Amy' of course she does- Figg

So Amy seems to be a positive role model for her, she has made actual decisions inspired by the character which were positive, but that's not good enough because there is a hidden subliminal subtext of sexism behind it all that will one day subvert their sense of what a woman is?
I just dont buy it.

I find much more unpleasantness in the character of Rose, and in particular her treatment of others, men in particular, but she is not much better in her treatment of her own mother often (a mother often portrayed as a sexual predator- her first lines to the Doctor are sexually provocative).
Anything not the Doctor for Rose is not good enough- look how she treats the the thought of ever having to return to normal life. She rails against it. Mickey even, quite rightly, calls her out on it and accuses her of thinking everyone else is not good enough for her any more.
Compare that to Amy and Rory who see real positive things in every day life, whether its the boy in God complex overcoming a stutter and reminding Rory of the small triumphs in life, or them creating a home life for themselves with friends, family and work.
I think overall the message given by the Ponds is far more positive than that given by Rose.

[Amarië]

Amy is like a modern fairytale written by a sekt; marry as soon as you can and have children. Seeking adventure will steal your dignity, your womb, you will die alone and abandoned unless you are lucky enough to be allowed to live the rest of your days as a 50s housewife. There is so much creepy going on thats almost on GOT standard.

[Norc]

woah, shit i had never thought of it that way O_O

[Pettytyrant101]

marry as soon as you can and have children- Amarie

Amy is unsure if she wants to get married at all -this forms a large part of her arc for the entire first series. So its not as soon as you can at all, nor is her wedding forced or pressured onto her in any way.
You cannot just hold the fact she gets married against her as an act of sexism or every woman who marries is a victim of sexism, as is every married female character in fiction.

Seeking adventure will steal your dignity-

you will have to provide where her dignity is taken away from her, as I dont know what this refers to in the series.

steal your womb-

the baby is naturally conceived with her husband on their wedding night. Her womb is not stolen, she is kidnapped whilst pregnant. But the conception of the child has nothing to do with anyone but her and her husband.

you will die alone and abandoned unless you are lucky enough to be allowed to live the rest of your days as a 50s housewife-

you have this arse to elbow. Nowhere is it indicated Amy would die alone- Rory was going to die alone never seeing Amy again until the moment of his death, and this is why he is willing to sacrifice himself instead of that empty future (presumably as its Rory dying alone not Amy this as an example of sexism against men!)
Amy could have gone on with Doctor, she chooses to give all that up and to be with Rory instead because she loves him. The Doctor doesn't want her to go.
She is backed up in her decision only by another woman, her daughter River.
I dont see this as a bad message.
And we know what Amy does professionally with her life, she is not a housewife, she writes very successful childrens books, whats sexist about any of this?



woah, shit i had never thought of it that way O_O- NOrc


Thats because it is a false, and I have to say rather flippant, portrayal of Amy's character. See above.

[Norc]

well. i didn't say i was convinced, you that it was a new angle

[Pettytyrant101]

well. i didn't say i was convinced- Norc

Well...good then!

[Norc]

but i didn't say i had an opinion about the matter either

[Pettytyrant101]

 

[David H]

Um, in semi related news... Marwel comic Thor becomes a girl.

Transgender Thor is certainly impressive,  but I think Hippolyte is regal in a way Thor can never match.  

[Norc]

Those boobs look impractical ...

[Mrs Figg]

yeah those boobs wont jiggle.   

[Mrs Figg]

nice summary of the various families, she missed out Rorys dad though, I like him because of the actor who plays him more than anything.

[Mrs Figg]

I like this girl    I think she has summed the different eras perfectly.

[Norc]

Perhaps not the boobs so much, but that bra won't hold anything in place...

[David H]

Those boobs look firm enough that they don't need anything to hold them in place. I bet she could kill a man with those things!   

[Amarië]

Quote thing sucks on phone, but does old Amy die alone and abandoned? Yes. Is everything besides the wedding night INCLUDING THE BABY taken from her? She gives birth in a box! Not knowing she was pregnant.
I'm not making things up, Petty.

[Amarië]

{{Love your bunker though, Petty! Nearly as good as mine. We're going to kill ourselves and take the Shire down with us, aren't we? }}