Doctor Who [8]

the scene you posted is an example of the kind of grandstanding that has been occurring a whole lot over the last few seasons whenever characters in the show talk about the legacy or power of the doctor.- Forest

I would say this started in classic Who with the 7th Doctor- and all the hints he was more than  a Time  Lord and somewhat like a sort of ancient reoccurring God.
Exactly how far they would have taken this we will never know because it got cancelled, but when the show came back RTD seemed to like the idea - even from the off with the internet guy in Rose, the very first episode of NUWHo - "he brings a storm in his wake and he has one constant companion, death" he was bigging up the Doctor through secondary characters, and it was particularly through the 10th Doctor run we got the messianic Doctor (scenes like like that in Sound of Drums/Last of the Time Lords where the Doctor is literally born anew and borne up in crucifixion pose to smite the Master using the power of the prayers of the people of earth calling out his name, or the description given by the boy in Family of Blood, which is a description of a God, not of the Doctor- "He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever. He burns at the centre of time and can see the turn of the universe. And he is wonderful.") the problem for me with these is that the Doctor seems to believe it himself not just those around him.

Moffat did a lot to scale this back- whole strands of the 11th Doctors story are to do with scaling him back and dialling that side down- scenes like Rivers mocking "How far you've come' speech from Good Man Goes to War that highlight the problem of making the Doctor to God like (for this reason as well as other examples I completely disagree that River sees him in any sort of God like light at all, she is the very reason he realises himself he has been believing his own hype too much, and is very much a grounding factor for him) the entire situation at Demons Run is largely a result of the Doctor's own actions and increasing sense of importance- 'How far you've come. And now they've taken a child. The child of your best friends. And they're going to turn her into a weapon just to bring you down. And all this, my love, in fear of you.'
And the cracks in time removed a lot of the more objectionable messianic stuff 10 did in relation to earth and everyone knowing about him and the planet getting invaded and saved by him every other week- hell 10 even made appearances on global tv news in his era such as at the Olympic opening ceremony in Fear Her.

The end result is that Moffat doesn't mind secondary characters being in awe of the Doctor, or even bigging him up in this way, or mistaking him for being some sort of God, but the Doctor doesn't believe his own hype any more, as that scene demonstrates- which is a lot better in my view.

I dont think the fact the Doctor only has one or two lines in that is all that relevant, the scene is about Clara I would say not the Doctor, its a good Clara scene for my money- it shows her as able to cope- she is confronted with aliens after all and stays pretty calm and collected, even after Vastra deliberately tries to unsettle her with the red wine comment, and her responses are intelligent and her final answer insightful.
And as I mentioned I really like how they shoot it- most directors are afraid to shoot the people in prosthetics too closely or in to much light for fear of it looking like a person in a mask- I love that in this they dont. (And I am a big fan of how Neve Macintosh plays her- she has pretty much defined the entire Silurian race portrayal in NuWho)

Always loved this take on the Good Man speech from Little Blue Box-

'The first five scripts for Series Eight, including the series opener Deep Breath, are understood to have been compromised after being sent to the BBC Worldwide office in Miami, where they were due to be translated for the Latin America market.
BBC Worldwide told Radio Times they were pleading with the public and fans sites not to share the material released We would like to make a plea to anyone who might have any of this material and spoilers associated with it not to share it with a wider audience so that everyone can enjoy the show as it should be seen when it launches. We know only too well that Doctor Who fans are the best in the world and we thank them for their help with this and their continued loyalty.'- Gallifrey Base

If anyone comes across the scripts please if you are going to post them here make sure they are in spoilers and clearly marked as the leaked scripts- I for one dont want to know a thing about them, I want to see them performed, not to read them. But I would hope no one here would put them up even if they had them- I dont want the Who thread to be hosting scripts we shouldn't have which the Doctor Who team have asked fans not to publish.

I hope a head or two are rolling at BBC America- how the hell did they let this happen!  

Leaks like that suck.  I've been watching The Legend of Korra (an animated fantasy show) and they had four entire episodes (numbers three through six) leaked online after someone at Nickelodeon Mexico made them available somehow.  The network moved the premiere date forward by like two months and seem to have been scrambling to air all of the episodes as quick as they can.  Plus they've stopped uploading them to their official website, since that's how a lot of leaks of finished episodes happen.

Since something like this Who leak sounds deliberate, I wonder what the motive was. I dunno if contraband Who scripts would fetch much money. Maybe it was a misguided fan working at BBC Worldwide who thought he was doing people a favor? Or maybe just a troll.

That's twice now BBC America have screwed up, last time they mistakenly sent out the series dvd to pre-order mail customers in America before the series had finished airing!   

Moffat will be blowing a gasket- he hates leaks more than anything else- last time someone leaked something Moffat denounced them as fans and said he wished they'd bugger off and be fans of something else instead.

Forest Shepherd wrote:

However, the scene you posted is an example of the kind of grandstanding that has been occurring a whole lot over the last few seasons whenever characters in the show talk about the legacy or power of the doctor.

Vastra's line, "He was kind once... yes. A hero even. A saviour of worlds," smells of that attitude particularly. It is all very well that the Doctor has accomplished incredible things in the past, but it is far less fun for me to watch a show in which people talk about these huge grandiose things happening than to simply enjoy a good straightforward story containing good simple Whovian elements. Take, for example, Tom Baker's Doctor. I still have only seen 3 series of his, but I find the attitude of people around him to be far more satisfactory than Vastra's or River Song's occasional deference to his amazingness. You certainly wouldn't catch Romana, for example, praising the Doctor in such Christ-like terms.
Looking at this from the perspective of Baker's relatively "small" Doctor, I find the puffed-up verbiage rather irritating.

And sure, the Doctor is happily down-to-earth in his response to the silly (but well-written) One-Word Test ("Oh that thing never works") but the Doctor only has one line here.
The intended drama of the scene relies a whole lot upon Vastra explaining how far the Doctor has fallen from his World-Saviour status and whether or not this Victorian wench can inspire him out of his funk. It rubs me the wrong way.

I agree about the Doctor as saviour of the world stuff, I found it was much more subtle in Eccleston and Tennants Doctors, I also liked the way Rose never fawns and is never deferential to the Doctor, she is her own person and treats him like an equal not some godlike figure. Rose never goes on and on about how super powerful he is like River Song does, it makes me heave.

I found it was much more subtle in Eccleston and Tennants Doctors- Mrs Figg

  







Now thats grandstanding!


"Rose never goes on and on about how super powerful he is like River Song does"- Mrs Figg

Examples of River telling him how powerful he is please- as I cant think of any at all.

Notices this whilst looking up the clips above- the Pandorica speech as given by several Doctors- according to the info on the vid only 10 is an impression- now 11 is obviously from the episode- 5 and 7 did it at a fan convention, but 4 has to be an impression, it doesn't sound right, especially not for Baker doing it now.

But by a lucky coincidence you dont just get to hear the speech by different Doctors, which is fun itself, it demonstrates well the difference between such grandstanding in the Moffat and RTD eras.

This speech is grandstanding- the Doctor gives a big speech and everyone runs away because he is so amazing and powerful and the audience get a big cheer moment- then Moffat undermines the whole thing within 10 minutes by revealing its all a trap- the Doctor scared no one with his speech, he just made an idiot of himself with his own ego and walked right into the trap totally blinded to it.
Moffat does this time and again culminating in Rivers speech at Demons Run.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I found it was much more subtle in Eccleston and Tennants Doctors- Mrs Figg

  







Now thats grandstanding!


"Rose never goes on and on about how super powerful he is like River Song does"- Mrs Figg

oh god here come the never ending 'heres the proof' Youtube yawnfest.

Examples of River telling him how powerful he is please- as I cant think of any at all.

oh god here comes the 'heres the proof' Youtube yawnfest.

oh god here come the never ending 'heres the proof' Youtube yawnfest.- Mrs Figg

My apologies if the evidence and actual solid proof gets in the way of your unwarranted and wild claims about Moffat era Who in comparison to RTD.

That's the thing with Who, its not like discussing quantum physics (sorry Halfy and Dave) you can just go look at it and see what happened.

Good points Petty, and thanks for the tip of the hat Mrs. Figg.
I see what you mean of course by the Messianic Doctor stuff going on towards the end of Tennant's Doctor with the confrontation between himself and the Master.
That, however, is not so much the flavour of the rest of Tennant's episodes. Those videos you linked above, I find only the first overdone. The means by which the Doctor imprisons the Family of Blood is strange and rather god-like, but the manner in which he goes about it is cool and systematic. There is no bluster on his part. No grandstanding, as we say.
In the Titanic episode he does have some flair for drama break out with his bravado, but it's contained to a group of 5 people. Similarly to Midnight, in essence he (or at least we, the audience) are most concerned with the group accompanying him. The doctor has no large-scale speech inspiring the entire ship to action or something like his scenes in A Good Man Goes to War.

I really can't find any fault at all with the Family of Blood. That is one of my all-time favourite series of Doctor Who. The doctor is not even the doctor for the majority of the episodes, so I can't agree that Tennant shows a self-awareness of any godliness. Doctor-as-human actually recoils at the idea of the doctor.

John Smith: Falling in love? That didn't even occur to him?
Martha Jones: No.
John Smith: Then what sort of man is that? And now you expect me to die?


I've never really enjoyed any blustery talk in Who, as the show itself doesn't work as a story about someone who should be blustered about. But I dislike the blustery stuff (apart from the Messianic end to the third season) in the Smith years far more. River Song grew on me as a viewer from my first reaction to her in the Silence of the Library, but I feel that her character ushered in the era in which we get things like the Doctor shouting down space-ships. (Which, aware as we are of the fact that the entire sequence is actually a trap for the Doctor, is quite indicative of Smith's Doctor. I mean, his finale involves him doing the exact same thing against all those idiotic Dalek ships.)


If nothing else, the speech-making during Tennant and Eccleston's time just works better for me than Smith's Doctor.

Ultimately, I think we oversimplify Doctor Who in our heads. There are parts of every episode of Doctor Who I've ever seen that I enjoyed immensely; that's why I watch it! Even the odious Planet of the Dead has some enjoyable bits!

Edit: Speaking of other Smithy things, what of the "message" that Rory delivers to the Cybermen? That sort of thing is overblown and kind of ridiculous.

I love all my Who too, I have every episode, even all the RTD ones. There's rarely an episode that doesn't have good bits.

Family of Blood is also a personal favourite of mine I have raved about on here in the past about it but the end is ridiculously god like- he traps one the gravity well of a collapsing black hole, puts another in imperishable chains and drops him into the heart of a sun, somehow performs magic and traps another in every mirror everywhere, and he freezes the last one in time forever as a scarecrow to watch over the fields of England.

The Master episode was about where I had it with Tennant's Doctor when watching and actually stopped watching it for a short period before going back and watching the episodes I'd missed, its was that bad for me.
He is actually born up on the entire planet earth chanting his name- I seem to remember Figgs having a go at Day of the Doctor for having a single character do that- here the whole planet heals him in a halo of light and he literally rises up from the ground and floats through the air. He also somehow acquires the power of the Force to disarm the Master's sonic like its a light saber.
And to cap it all off it was basically all a dream anyway, the year that never was.

RTD was aware at least of the problem he created- I think Waters of Mars is RTD's 'I better put this right' episode.
Tennants moment of realisation "I've gone to far" could well be said of RTD and making the Doctor messianic.

Moffat seems to have felt he didn't go far enough- which is why we have the arc of the Doctor getting weary of it all, withdrawing, wiping his name from history, the Good Man speech ect.

Its Moffat who has pegged the Doctor back down from the legendary figure, the 'Oncoming Storm' of RTD era, the person everyone knows who he is, 'the man who can turn armies around at the mere mention of his name' - that's an RTD legacy in a Moffat script, not a Moffat created one, he is putting it right.

And I think its to Moffats credit that rather than just retcon his Doctor to not be a continuation of RTD's at the start, he instead keeps it going, and even makes it worse  with speeches like the Stonehenge one, and then he brings the Doctor and the viewer crashing down with River speech and the Doctors personal realisation during the conversation with Vastra that people now see him as a weapon.
This is further compounded by the soldier woman who equates the word Doctor with the meaning warrior.

The bulk of the major arcs material series 5-7 has largely been slowly retconing Who back towards classic status- where the Doctor can just be someone who turns up and gets involved and leaves and no one knows who he is- its why Moffat has put such emphasis on Doctor Who? Its why the cracks got rid of the Dalek invasion on earth during Roses time, and the giant cyberman stomping over in Victorian London and ir probably got rid of Nessie in London too and the dinosaurs!
Then he had the Doctor remove himself form history, had Clara make the Dales forget who he is. And he made the Doctor's self realisation that he had become to big the backbone of his Doctors run. Its all a reset of the RTD years.

"Someone has been going about wiping themselves form every database."
"You said I got to big. Demon's run, remember?"
"And now nobody has ever heard of you. Didn't you used to be someone?"
"Weren't you the woman who killed the Doctor?"
"Doctor Who?"

With the final Dalek speech I think he can be forgiven for a sudden rush of cockiness- he was dying of old age, facing down a Dalek fleet with the full knowledge he was about to die for good, be buried in his TARDIS and the Daleks would exterminate everything on the surface, including all the people he had protected for a thousand years, and then they'd go on to take over the universe, an exterminate most of it for not being Dalek enough.
So I think getting a whole new set of regens probably warrants a certain amount of assured cockiness and exuberance at that point.

And when it comes to big speeches classic Who has them, 6 and 7 are quite found of the big speech.
The 4th has a few, and 5 doesn't do bombastic but he does do speeches.

 

1. it happens twice and he shows both- the first example is from Blink (one of your favourite episodes I believe Mrs Figg- Moffat written, RTD head writer)) and the second is from the Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe, so the only two examples he could find are separated by 4 series, two Doctors and a complete change in production staff and head writer.

2. Rory doesn't obssess over Amy, he loves Amy. He shows devotion to her and unerring loyalty. As a man I dont find those traits anything but noble, so maybe I'm misogynistic and men should instead show no devotion to those they love or any loyalty. And God forbid they do anything romantic in a series which has the theme of fairytale, like wait 2000 years outside a box for their love.
The Doctor has pretty good reason for obsessing over Clara as he met her twice and saw her die twice.
And he obsesses over her in the manner portrayed in the vid, for about 40 seconds of screen time.

3. I've heard this said in real life, usually loudly. It happens, people can be selfish and when they are angry at each other make cheap shots. Denying it happens is not progressive its denial.
And he appears to be only able to find one example of it happening in 3 seasons of episodes, and I would say given the emotion of that scene its justified in the context. Even though I say that as someone who dislikes the whole divorce subplot going on.

4. Thats Jenny, Jenny and Strax are two of his oldest and closest friends. When he goes to call in favours and to get people to help him to rescue Amy from Demons Run Jenny and Vastra are there to help.
Its not like he grabs a stranger, he grabs a very good and old friend who is th epartner of an even older friend- quite different.

As to the Doctor asking Rory's permission before hugging Amy- he seems to have no sense of humour this guy, its a matey funny thing, as echoed by some of Rorys responses to the request such as "Ok, but remember I do have a sword" when he is dressed as a Roman.

5. The Doctor lies to everyone,. Rule one the Doctor lies. He has always lied right since the first Doctor lied about needing mercury just so he could go investigate the Dalek city and putting everyone in mortal peril. To put this in context you would have to include everyone he has lied to, not just the women, as he lies all the time.
He doesn't erase Clara's memories' saving everyone meant the event never happened. She only realises it later because she is in a dying TARDIS and it has time leaks. So just plain wrong on that one- the only time the Doctor did wipe anyones memories was 10 in the RTD era, to Donna. An that was justified in my view.

6. Is he kidding now? One shot from the xmas episode where there is a massive warehouse of boxes full of people of both sexes he doesn't show. And River Song, whose story line sees her imprisoned for murdering the Doctor, but a prison she can break out of whenever she wants
"River Song can walk in and out of that prison as she pleases."
"But I'm River Song."
"You'll be fine then."

Not to mention the Dcotor turns up every night in a time machine so she can leave and go back as she likes and be away for as long as she likes- its more a hotel for her.
The whole leaving River like a 'book on the shelf' is another in the long recurring theme of the Doctors guilt over companions, and is used as such in Name of the Doctor where the line is from. Why treat his guilt over River differently than that of Rose- who he also left behind in the bigger box, but still an inescapable box, of another dimension, or Donna, who he not only left but reset.

Sorry but those are not very convincing arguments and in some places he just has the facts wrong.

"Someone has been going about wiping themselves from every database."
This phrasing is what really really bugs me.
It's shown up throughout the time of both the show-runners that you lot like to argue so much over. Whenever someone says something like "[something]. Every [something]." It annoys me. As if the Doctor's best usage of time would be to somehow delete himself from every database ever. It's just weird.

Saying "every" or "never" or "always" in a universe as vast as the one within which Doctor Who exists is just silly. Life is more complicated than that.

It might be a near impossible task so I think its fairly safe to assume she means all the major ones- the Inforium, the Papal Mainframe, the Cyber database, the Dalek Net, those major ones- I doubt he was going out memory wiping people he had encountered for example.

I dont think it need be taken absolutely literally.

"As if the Doctor's best usage of time would be to somehow delete himself from every database ever. It's just weird."

Well the point was he had realised he got to big, to notorious, to much living in the limelight and being mythic- so he wanted to go back into the shadows as he put it using his apparent death as the mask for it.

Him altering all the records to imply he did die at Lake Siencio and wiping all later records also explains why the future Tesselector only has records of him up to Lake Silencio.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:1. it happens twice and he shows both- the first example is from Blink (one of your favourite episodes I believe Mrs Figg- Moffat written, RTD head writer)) and the second is from the Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe, so the only two examples he could find are separated by 4 series, two Doctors and a complete change in production staff and head writer.

2. Rory doesn't obssess over Amy, he loves Amy. He shows devotion to her and unerring loyalty. As a man I dont find those traits anything but noble, so maybe I'm misogynistic and men should instead show no devotion to those they love or any loyalty. And God forbid they do anything romantic in a series which has the theme of fairytale, like wait 2000 years outside a box for their love.
The Doctor has pretty good reason for obsessing  over Clara as he met her twice and saw her die twice.
And he obsesses over her in the manner portrayed in the vid, for about 40 seconds of screen time.

3. I've heard this said in real life, usually loudly. It happens, people can be selfish and when they are angry at each other make cheap shots. Denying it happens is not progressive its denial.
And he appears to be only able to find one example of it happening in 3 seasons of episodes, and I would say given the emotion of that scene its justified in the context. Even though I say that as someone who dislikes the whole divorce subplot going on.

4. Thats Jenny, Jenny and Strax are two of his oldest and closest friends. When he goes to call in favours and to get people to help him to rescue Amy from Demons Run Jenny and Vastra are there to help.
Its not like he grabs a stranger, he grabs a very good and old friend who is th epartner of an even older friend- quite different.

As to the Doctor asking Rory's permission before hugging Amy- he seems to have no sense of humour this guy, its a matey funny thing, as echoed by some of Rorys responses to the request such as "Ok, but remember I do have a sword" when he is dressed as a Roman.

5. The Doctor lies to everyone,. Rule one the Doctor lies. He has always lied right since the first Doctor lied about needing mercury just so he could go investigate the Dalek city and putting everyone in mortal peril. To put this in context you would have to include everyone he has lied to, not just the women, as he lies all the time.
He doesn't erase Clara's memories' saving everyone meant the event never happened. She only realises it later because she is in a dying TARDIS and it has time leaks. So just plain wrong on that one- the only time the Doctor did wipe anyones memories was 10 in the RTD era, to Donna. An that was justified in my view.

6. Is he kidding now? One shot from the xmas episode where there is a massive warehouse of boxes full of people of both sexes he doesn't show. And River Song, whose story line sees her imprisoned for murdering the Doctor, but a prison she can break out of whenever she wants
"River Song can walk in and out of that prison as she pleases."
"But I'm River Song."
"You'll be fine then."

Not to mention the Dcotor turns up every night in a time machine so she can leave and go back as she likes and be away for as long as she likes- its more a hotel for her.
The whole leaving River like a 'book on the shelf' is another in the long recurring theme of the Doctors guilt over companions, and is used as such in  Name of the Doctor where the line is from. Why treat his guilt over River differently than that of Rose- who he also left behind in the bigger box, but still an inescapable box, of another dimension, or Donna, who he not only left but reset.

Sorry but those are not very convincing arguments and in some places he just has the facts wrong.

its still funny   

 Arguing with you is like trying to punch one of Odo's jellies, the only end result is crabbit! Bloody button pushin' wimminfolk!!!!   This is why I drink buckie!!      

Amazing what a bit of editing and music can do- see the Doctor in an all new and terrifying light-

Pettytyrant101 wrote: Arguing with you is like trying to punch one of Odo's jellies, the only end result is crabbit! Bloody button pushin' wimminfolk!!!!   This is why I drink buckie!!      

I have honed my skillz after much argy bargy    

Wish I had some skills to hone   

Fun!

Edit: Speaking of other Smithy things, what of the "message" that Rory delivers to the Cybermen? That sort of thing is overblown and kind of ridiculous.- Forest

Sorry, missed this.


It is overblown, its meant to be- the entire build up to Demons Run the Doctor has lost the plot- they have taken his best friend, abducted her whilst she is pregnant and he goes over the top in response.
He takes out the cyberfleet just to make a point and a threat, and he turns up not with one, but two armies, one of Silurians and one of Judoon.

"Look, I'm angry...I really dont know what is going to happen now."

Then he cockily takes the entire base, rescues Amy and her baby without a single shot fired or drop of blood spilt and all the time he is so self assured and consumed with the aim of doing whatever heh as to to get Amy and her baby back that he can't see the trap- even when its obvious to others around him like Dorian, "And yet they gave in so easily. Does this not bother anyone else?.....This is too easy. There's something wrong."


"he will rise higher than ever before, and then fall so much further."

It would be pretty poor scripting in an episode the crescendo of which is the Doctor's realisation he has become to egotist, to much the man than can turn armies around at the mention of his name, if we never actually saw him taking it too far in the first place. You have to see that for Rivers denouncement to have any power in the episode.
For me is a good example of where Moffat makes the audience complicit in the Doctors ego- there is a large part of the audience love that scene- you will find it on youtube under the heading 'coolest ever scene in Doctor Who' - you are meant to be in cheer mode when he blows up the fleet, and when he routs the army on Demons Run and rescues everyone, so that when River pulls him down the viewer is pulled down with him for cheering him on and enjoying him doing these things.
I find it very clever writing.

Overall it works, of course, but it does clunk a bit. As it should, I suppose: being Doctor Who and all.
By the by, is it just me or does Classic Who show less of the in-between stuff when switching from one companion or Doctor to another? It's hard to tell what's what and what's Netflix being a half-assed Who resource. It really is bare-bones. There's only a few stories per Doctor on there.

Your best bet for classic Who is dailymotion- finding them on dailymotion itself is a bugger- but if you go to wiki for the episode listings then google for 'Doctor who (episode name)' and do a search of video instead of web you will find a link to it on dailymotion 9 times out of ten.