Re: More Hobbit pictures [4] SPOILER THREAD

[chris63]

[Orwell]

Oooh Chris! Hurrah!

[chris63]

[Orwell]

 The King!

[Forest Shepherd]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic again or not Forest, but I think most visual depictions of Bard have shown him being on the older site.  Or, at the very least, being older than Luke Evans (who's not particularly grim-faced either).

Seriously?
Peter Jackson is beholden to a non-Tolkien tradition of showing an old Bard?

And alright, sure, Luke Evans is more smouldering than grim. But take note that "grim" here does not mean "hard to look at without feeling sorry for what time does to the human face cause it's so beaten down." It is a permanent mark of a continuous seriousness of mind. The face displays such things over time.

Anyone can look grim-faced: Square the jaw, frown the eyebrows, tighten the lips... Emit dire warnings about poisoned food items...Portend a bad year...Listen to the AUJ Director's Commentary...The list goes on!

Have we not seen a serious-faced Bard thus far in the trailers? The impression I have of him thus far, just off-hand, is of a grumpy frowny dude.

Being nitpicky guys! Being nitpicky.

[Norc]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic again or not Forest, but I think most visual depictions of Bard have shown him being on the older site.  Or, at the very least, being older than Luke Evans (who's not particularly grim-faced either).

Seriously?
Peter Jackson is beholden to a non-Tolkien tradition of showing an old Bard?

And alright, sure, Luke Evans is more smouldering than grim. But take note that "grim" here does not mean "hard to look at without feeling sorry for what time does to the human face cause it's so beaten down." It is a permanent mark of a continuous seriousness of mind. The face displays such things over time.

Anyone can look grim-faced: Square the jaw, frown the eyebrows, tighten the lips... Emit dire warnings about poisoned food items...Portend a bad year...Listen to the AUJ Director's Commentary...The list goes on!

Have we not seen a serious-faced Bard thus far in the trailers? The impression I have of him thus far, just off-hand, is of a grumpy frowny dude.

Being nitpicky guys! Being nitpicky.

well, said forest

[Pettytyrant101]

I think the problem Forest is that the impression and mental image most folk get for the book for Bard is of a man in his forties or older.

What Pj has given us is what look suspiciously like yet another hunky actor to add to all the other hunky actors already inappropriately cast and a tacked on cheesy family.

[Bluebottle]

And that the decisions to deviate from Tolkien always goes in the younger or better looking direction is of course a complete coincidence.   Even when it entails completely changing a character from the book one.

[Sinister71]

which is another difference between LOTR and the Hobbit. LOTR they cast actors who semi fit the description of the book characters. Even if they didn't use the characterization of that character they at least got the look close. Even Orlando Bloom who's acting I find wooden, and amateurish at least looked elvish.

With the Hobbit they went for pure visual appeal by making "hot"dwarfs, making Bard younger, not to mention giving him 3 kids and being a single dad to add sympathy from the suckers in the audience. Jackson deliberately changed the look of the characters this time around, to cater to the young 18 to 25 year old market. Who would want characters younger and more attractive than Old dwarfs, or a middle aged man who is grim and somber because of his lineage. Character details I'm sure Tolkien had well thought out. Unlike Peter Jackson's changes to the story which IMO get confusing or contradict his own LOTR. Jackson's changes seem not very well thought out and put on film for the "cool" factor. Instead of worrying about actually telling the story of the book which he was supposed to be representing on film.

Smart film making maybe, (it does cater to the demographic that Jackson intended) but it is a poor adaptation of Tolkien's story IMO. Unnecessary change in translating a book to film does nothing IMO to tell the story of the source material. For me its the changes that take me out of the story more than immerse me in it. When I hear they are making an adaptation of the Hobbit I expect to get a story about Bilbo's adventure There and Back again, not watching a story about Sauron's return to middle earth and seeing his ring flaunted in the viewers face. And constant tie ins to events that have not happened yet. Jackson is merely using Tolkien's source material as a way to tell his own story disguised as an adaptation.

[Eldorion]

Seriously?
Peter Jackson is beholden to a non-Tolkien tradition of showing an old Bard?

PJ can do whatever he wants -- he's proven that quite thoroughly by now -- but he's taken a lot of visual cues from Tolkien artists with both LOTR and TH. Although my main reason for bringing up art was to mention why I and, I think, many others imagine Bard as being older. Although speaking only for myself, I imagined him as older from the first time I read the book, before seeing any artistic depictions of him. That doesn't mean Luke Evans is a bad actor or will do a bad job, he just looks different from my mental image of Bard so I personally wish they had cast someone a little older. Also it's kind of distracting how much he looks like POTC-era Orlando Bloom.

{{{I'm still not sure if you're pulling my leg or not.}}}

[Sinister71]

 That doesn't mean Luke Evans is a bad actor or will do a bad job, he just looks different from my mental image of Bard so I personally wish they had cast someone a little older.  Also it's kind of distracting how much he looks like POTC-era Orlando Bloom.

Completely agree Eldo. Evan's isn't a terrible actor I have seen him in several roles, and he is a very intense actor. But he just isn't old enough for the character of Bard. Bard should have been at least in his late 40's (IMO) which would have made him in his early 80's when he died... There is no other reason in my mind to hire someone as young as Evans for Bard other than looks. Jackson already proved he doesn't care about character in the Hobbit perfect example is making Thorin about half his age from the book, and making Kili look like a damn human/elf hybrid instead of like a rugged dwarf.

[Forest Shepherd]

[LotR had better casting]
[Legolas is hot.]
[The film dwarves are hot]
...making Bard younger, not to mention giving him 3 kids and being a single dad to add sympathy from the suckers in the audience. Jackson deliberately changed the look of the characters this time around, [Christopher Tolkien (justified) ageist quote]. Who would want characters younger and more attractive than Old dwarfs, or a middle aged man who is grim and somber because of his lineage. Character details I'm sure Tolkien had well thought out. Unlike Peter Jackson's changes to the story which IMO get confusing or contradict his own LOTR.
[Jackson's changes have the "cool" factor.]
Instead of worrying about actually telling the story of the book which he was supposed to be representing on film.

[Wandering Crabbit].

Hey! Stay on topic!

Interesting points anyway. So far I do not see a Bard that is not "grim and somber." Your observation about "sympathy from suckers" is justified considering that it is a departure from the book that allows additions more screen time over book scenes. However, I think your concerns may be coming out too early about how Bard's family will work in the movie. It may be that including such obvious motivation for Bard to protect his people will cheapen his character's development, but perhaps not. Perhaps they will add some personality to Lake-town's otherwise anonymous citizens (...maybe).

I think the problem Forest is that the impression and mental image most folk get for the book for Bard is of a man in his forties or older.

What Pj has given us is what look suspiciously like yet another hunky actor to add to all the other hunky actors already inappropriately cast and a tacked on cheesy family.

Oh ok good, so there's no book reasoning behind angst concerning a younger Bard.

(Quick lore-aside: the line of Girion were regular men: no Westernesse-longevity for them. So what was life-expectancy? Sinister mentioned death at 80 for Bard. Anyone have the dates on-hand? My book is at home right now, unlike myself.)

I think the hunkiness factor is obvious, his casting not necessarily inappropriate, and his family hardly lore-breaking. A grim, grizzled older man who somehow gets in touch with his romantic side and starts having kids once the BoFA is over is not preferable, in my mind, to a younger widower with the baby-making out of the way already (having children would go a long way toward explaining why he was so grim all the time).  

[Pettytyrant101]

I cant find a birth date for Bard in the Tale of Years- he became King of Dale in 2944 and he died in 2977- so he was King for 33 years of his life.

So if he was 30ish during the Hobbit, he would be in hi early sixties when he died.
Or in his 70's if he was 40.
And in his 80's if 50.

Tolkien is also sparse on descriptive material for Bard- the most I can find is grim faced and grim voiced and that his hair was 'dark'.

In defence of a young Bard there is no mention of grey in his hair and nothing to definitively place his age as above 30 (that I can find).

In defence of an older Bard he does not at all sound like a young man in his speech, and he appears to have the sort of respect given to him usually reserved for some one older- especially considering people also regard him as a doom-sayer.

A less solid ground is that in general Tolkien tends to give 'good guys' longer life spans than the average.

I am not against expanding on Bard in an adaptation- but expansion based on what we are told in the book- that he prophesies doom a lot, that he is very respected and competent archer, and that he seems to be a natural civic leader when it comes to organisation and motivation of people.
Given how little of him there is in the book Tolkien does give a pretty solid picture of the type of man he is.

I am less sure where a family and the rumoured allusions to him being like 'Robin Hood' fit into that however, and PJ has very, very, exceptionally, abysmally awful previous when it comes to 'expanding' Tolkien material.

[Norc]

thank you sherlockology for not tagging your fucking hobbit spoilers! you're great with sherlock spoilers, but apparently fuck the hobbit. the revelation of Smaug. shown in bright colours on an air-new zealand plane

massive smaug spoiler, if you don't want to see any smaug until the theatre don't look at it, fuck sherlockology, u just ruined everything for me:

[Pettytyrant101]

At least he looks more golden now. They might actually have fixed that.  

[Mrs Figg]

Did you guys hate the Rohan refugee children in TTT this much too?  It's not like they were an especially intrusive part of the story (though it could be different this time ).

I HATED THEM!!!!!!   I loved TTT but that was tedium. Cant believe they probably cut Merry and Pippin drinking Ent juice for that useless garbage.  

[Forest Shepherd]

Fair points Petty. And thanks for the dates, much appreciated.
I'd say we could call this a +1 for the less crabbit side of Forumshire.

To be fair though, film Bard does not look under 35, at least our modern perception of 35.

Too young can be trouble-some, but in this case his visual appearance is not really an issue, all PotC comparisons aside.

The thing that worries me is that Bard will probably be presented as an outsider in the film ("Robin Hood" as you say): a rebel against the entrenched corruption of the current Master of Lake-town, and his cronies, (or crony, although that may be his companion, who knows).  
It is this very tired cliche that may crumple his credibility if anything will. I am not saying that Bard should not oppose the Master and his ilk, for he should, but if that is his primary characteristic and the reasoning for his grimness, it will be poorly done.

I am reminded of how little I cared for the Gondorians. They were always lining up in front of incoming projectiles, or thrashing around screaming (as they should have been, no problems lore-wise I suppose), or leaving their women and children in the lowest levels of Minas Tirith, the like.
Faramir was just so darn dying for most of RotK that Gondor did not have a single likeable, active, character for the whole movie. Where were the traces of ancient Numenorian majesty? Where was the Prince of Dol Amroth? Why couldn't the Gondorians have their own Eomer?
Expliquez-moi Jackson! Expliquez-moi!!  GRRAHH!!

As an aside, that was not off-topic, because Petty mentioned how Jackson had bungled this kind of thing before, and I gave an example.

If the Men of Lake-town (which of course includes the women and children too) are similarly undercut, or simply botched, I will be very disappointed. I mean, there is very little description of their characteristics, lore-wise. So, really, anything could happen.
...Perhaps the Master allows Azog and Co. into the town?  

[Forest Shepherd]

At least he looks more golden now. They might actually have fixed that.  

I actually thought him just as purple as ever. That is, I believe, pixie dust floating by his shoulder.
The colours in this are perhaps not true to the film.

Edit: Sorry that happened Norc.  
You can't trust those Sherlockology guys.
At least his number of limbs is still a mystery for you!

Spoiler:

[Bluebottle]

I do wonder though how much of the colour comes from the lighting. This is the same picture taken in daylight.

Spoiler:

[Mrs Figg]

As for Bard, what I dont like is the Pirates of the Caribean Will Turnering of Bard. All that swashbuckling and foretelling doom and all that shit. not to mention minutes of excruciating cute kids going 'gee pop Timmy's fallen down the well'. so bard should be a silent grim outcast drifting about being shunned and downtrodden and laughted at behind his back. maybe swathed in a long grimy cloak, grizzled looking like BlackFish Tully from Game of Thrones.

[azriel]

When I read the book, I imagined Bard to be well worn, weathered, like men who work outside all the time. I also thought of him middle aged, handsome in a rugged sort of way, as if he was a distant relative to a Dunedain, Strong silent type that people didnt take to much notice of but didnt take the pee out of him, I imagined him to stand up & be strong,do the right thing without fear when he was called upon. That he thought of others before himself.

[Pettytyrant101]

The colours in this are perhaps not true to the film.- Forest

I just noticed in that first picture they have a bank of red lights in the foreground shining on it  

He doent look very Smaug the Golden or Magnificent in that second one either

Azriel I would largely agree with that, but not so much the loner- in the book people do listen to him- they might say he is always going on about depleting fish stocks or prophesying, but when he needs to tell people to follow him, or do something he doesnt have to ask them twice- this tells me that he was genuinely respected by most folk and so probably well known.

[Norc]

he does in the first.

[Pettytyrant101]

Yes but the first is being lit by a row of red lights  

[Norc]

no. 

and the second is in very cold, flat light.