Doctor Who [6]

Spoiler:

Which brings me to another point for Mrs Figg- from reading your posts you seem to be watching series 5 out of order- not something I would recommend, if you are going on to watch series 6 its an even worse one to watch out of order.
You can get an episode list on wiki if your not sure of the order to watch.

I'm sure it can all be explained, but I still maintain that a story that's been well fleshed out shouldn't leave so many ribs showing.

I thin its because it all happens so quickly in the last two episodes- the ribs arent really thee, its just Moffat asks the viewer to put together the flesh on them, all the information is there and built over a good deal of time, but you have to do a fair bit of mental quick thinking to put all the pieces together in the time frame of those last two episodes- in that respect they are definitely episodes for rewatching- as I know when I rewatched them, at least the first couple of times, I was still having "Ah, of course, how did I not see thats what that was the first time through?" moments.
I do think I would have been better in 3 parts but then you bring in the BBC budgets and all that crap and Moffat has to fight to get the occasional episode extended a few minutes beyond the normal running time let alone whole extra episodes.

The finale is very much a finale in the true sense of capping off all the themes, hints and clues of the entire series, and cant really be seen as standing on its own.
Its the last two hours of the series, if you see what I mean, and in that regard it fits perfectly together and makes its own complete internal sense.
But Who sense- the theme of series 5 is fairytale, the little girl with the imaginary friend who came back.
The entire run has the theme of memory and other very non scifi themes but very fairytale ones, so the ending and conclusion makes no sense from a purely scifi stand point, but perfect sense as a fairytale. And the beauty of Who is it can be whatever genre of story it needs to be, thats why its still here.

Its still not very good though. There are much better finales out there. That speech the Doctor makes to Young Amy was quite weird, it was supposed to be touching but to me it just felt like maudlin self pity on his part. He never really shows much compassion for Amy and suddenly when he thinks he is dying he gets all weepy, I dont buy it. From what I have seen she has everything to gain by him disappearing from her life forever, she has her parents back and has just got married when the Doctor comes back she has everything taken away, suffers terribly, in unimaginable ways, on every trip with him, the only thing she ever got is a few years of 'exciting' trips out, the price is pretty high for Amy, I never understand her attraction to him, he is her Nemesis. The other companions get some pretty good outcomes, Martha and Mickey are successful in life, Rose gets her own 'Doctor', Donna becomes a better more confident person, but poor Amy is tortured in every way a woman can be tortured, theres nothing in it for her.

"the scene with the Dalek was disgusting"- Mrs Figg

I somehow missed your earlier post, sorry.

I am not sure exactly what you mean by this- but at this point in her timeline

Spoiler:

And River shoots stuff- always has, she isnt the Doctor.

"even carving one of the monstrocities on a Cliff"

Its part of what she always does- send him a message she is coming- she does it in Library with Tennant, she does it in the Angels two parter putting a message on the homing box, she does it Pandorica on the cliff face.

"'We're just the last light to go out' " ect

It has already been established by that point that they are in a collapsing alternate universe- one in which there have never been stars, or indeed a rest of the universe, and what there is is collapsing.
The sort of things the Doctor says is typical of 11 who is always trying to come up with ways of explaining things to humans they dont have a clue of understanding, such as Space and Time where he tells them space is like a banana, except not yellow, or for that matter actually curved. Or in the Doctors Wife where he tells them they are in a bubble universe, like a soap bubble attached to a bigger one, before admitting its actually nothing like that at all.
The information the viewer needs to understand it- that its an alternative version of our own universe- is established through young Amy and her drawing of stars and that its collapsing is evidenced by the Dalek - who, as the universe outside earth is gone never existed- so they are literally after echoes left at the eye of the storm- the location of the Pandorica. Which is what the Doctor says.

"How the heck has Rory become an Auton plastic Rory,"

I already explained that- but in brief- bad guys league use Neesteene Consciousness to build them a trap using the memory imprint from Amy taken from her house (long established in Who houses hold memories, hence ghosts) but with Amy because of the crack in the wall they get a lot more- they also replicate Rory in among all the other Auton replicates of Romans and stuff.

"how the heck can Amy think the Doctor back into existence?"

Exactly the same way she did Rory- the power and effects of Amy's memory are a running theme of series 5- with strong examples in the Angels episode where she can remember people wiped from existence and the Doctor telling her about how sometimes people slip out of the universe, but they always leave traces, and sometimes they can be brought back.
All of these themes and ideas regarding Amys memory and the effects the crack in time pouring into her head all her life have had on her are set out in the preceding episodes.
Her bringing back the Doctor is both due to her full realization of this ability "Raggedy Man I remember you! And you are late for my wedding!" and the Doctors genius in sowing the seeds in the story to trigger her memory of him in the first place, knowing on her wedding someone was bound to mention the old wedding rhyme, someone always does.
Its a true Doctor/Companion joint effort.

"why is the Pandorica a prison, a stasis field, a resurrection machine, a ship"

Its a prison for the reasons given in the story- its a stasis field because they know they cant kill the Doctor as he will just regenerate as he has done every other time they thought they'd got him, so part of the prison is a stasis field so he will never die, he will simply exists forever in the same state- it achieves this by consistently renewing. Which is why it will also 'resurrect'- once Amy is put into the prison it sees she is dying, but doesnt know how to repair her, as it doesnt have her on record, it was made for a Time Lord, so she is held in stasis indefinitely- when living young Amelia gives it a fresh sample of living DNA from the person it has inside -it repairs older Amy in order to fulfill its programing to keep its occupant in a permanent living stasis forever.
As to it being a ship- its not but presumably it was designed to move a bit, it looks quite heavy and the League of Evil were probably not planning to leave it on earth and had to get there in the first place. It doesnt seem designed to fly, its erratic and not too safe a journey and only achievable after the Doctor has spent a chunk of the episode whilst his past self and all the Dalek stuff is going on jury rigging it to fly.

Which finales did you like?

Tennants

tenant was the best

Ha! Which in particular- I mean the one with towing the earth about?- you want to talk plot holes? Really?

Or Bad Wolf- in which the solution was made up in the final episode it seemed with no means to predict before hand because they hadnt bothered giving you anything like enough info or set up to go on.

Or Tenants departure? Where the entire first episode is about the Master using alien hospital tech to turn a whole planets population into a crabon copy of himself (why would a hospital medical machine even do that!) and then within five minutes of the start of the next part everything that happend in the preceding 45 minutes is reset by a Time Lord literally waving his hand about.
And what about Doctor Jesus- floating off the ground in a glowing aura buoyed up on the prayers of the people of earth?  

Really- you thought Pandorica was worse than those?

that's not what I said !

Sorry CC missed your post. I disagree, he makes about no5 on my list behind Smith, Tom Baker, Troughton and Hartnell

agreed

 

Did u know... the firs bomb to hit England was dropped near Dover Castle on Christmas Eve in 1914 #cc'sthursdayfacts

It would have hit the castle if the Doctor hadnt been there.  

as #ccsthursdayfacts is a trustworthy source of accurate facts 4 the residents of forumshire i can't confirm that though it sounds plausible

Pettytyrant101 wrote:I do think I would have been better in 3 parts but then you bring in the BBC budgets and all that crap and Moffat has to fight to get the occasional episode extended a few minutes beyond the normal running time let alone whole extra episodes.

The finale is very much a finale in the true sense of capping off all the themes, hints and clues of the entire series, and cant really be seen as standing on its own.
Its the last two hours of the series, if you see what I mean, and in that regard it fits perfectly together and makes its own complete internal sense.

OK, I can see how they might have been forced to put too much in to two hours to tie off the loose ends of the whole series. That actually fits with my analogy to Deathly Hallows. And just to be clear, I thought there was a lot of potentially good material stuffed in there. It's just that it all seemed to be stuck together with chewing gum and duct tape.

To come back to the plastic Rory example, I think his 2000 year vigil would have made a really cool spin-off series, or at least 3 or 4 Who-light episodes. Let him wrestle with the question of his humanity like Frankenstein and Pinocchio while he tries to blend into Arthurian England, Robin Hood England etc. Make it a multi-layered fairytale of his own. That could have been cool! But to have all that set-up resolved by a few seconds of exposition and some crude sketches about a myth of a centurion....what a waste! Once again it seems the writers were going out of their way to hang a sign on Rory that says "DO NOT IDENTIFY WITH THIS CHARACTER".

That's probably my biggest criticism of the Amy/Rory episodes you sent me: in every one where Rory was a companion he died, except for 'girl who waited' where she died. In the past I've always felt that a Who companion was there partly to give the audience somebody human to identify with [the Dr Watson if you like.] But each time Rory dies it becomes harder and harder for me to care what happens to him, and it seems like Amy isn't much safer. And if I'm not given somebody to identify with, I get distant, analytical and critical.

That doesn't mean I don't still enjoy the ride, but my head is going to demand a lot more from and episode if my heart is asked not to play as well. I'll watch this again, but only after I've given it a fair chance by watching everything that came before. I guess that's only fair.

'Really- you thought Pandorica was worse than those?'

yes it was worse than those with Tennant. Tennants finale had heart and were genuinely moving.
The Pandorica Bang episodes felt like the heart of Dr Who had been dug out to be replaced by a shallow, smug self satisfied, boring mess of pretentious claptrap. It was a parody. it was like bad fan-fic by a writer who thinks shoving a load of fake tear-jerk nonoseconds can detract from the emotional and intellectual shallowness. Non of the characters had any depth, the oh look they are dead now they are alive bits made a mockery of the characters, who are puppets in the shadow of a megalomaniac sociopath. When he shouts at his enemies to be quiet because He is talking made me cringe. River treats Amy with supercilious disdain,

Spoiler:

, a bit of female camararderie wouldnt have gone amiss. The only small saving grace was little Amy. There were some interesting ideas in there but it was all overlaid by a layer of glib and at times nasty undertones.

Tennants finale had heart and were genuinely moving. - Figgs

And with plot holes you could drive double decker buses through sideways, really ludicrous stuff even by Who's eccentric standards, shmaltz to make you sick like all the RTD companions flying the TARDIS together and hugging and unnaturally cheering and clapping each other all the time, and instant make em up as you go plot resolutions.

No one actually dies either in Pandorcia- Rory is brought back true- but Amy is put in stasis before she dies and the Doctor is on the wrong side of the cracks in the universe but with a life line he has put in place to Amy's memory- but no one dies and no one is brought back to life save Rory.

"When he shouts at his enemies to be quiet because He is talking made me cringe."

Um you do know that was a nod and a direct quote from an earlier Doctor? The 9th in fact,  Eccelston- your favourite Doctor. Technically RTD wrote that line.
Also it should be slightly cringeworthy- thats kind of the point- they dont all bugger off because he is so powerful and amazing- he is playing right into their hands and their trap for him.
Its part of the much larger arc that comes to a head in series 6 regards

Spoiler:

I never got a sense of River treating Amy with disdain in this episode-she doesnt seem to do so to me, especially not round the scenes where the Doctor is about to fly the Pandorica. She is also hugely supported of Amy in the preceding Angels two parter -"You were magnificent Amy!" But she is a bit stand offish understandably.
Its worth remembering that this Amy is the youngest and first young Amy adult River has encountered- for River the Angels two parter hasnt happened yet- when Amy says to her "But you told us about the Pandorica at the Byzantium", River replies "I might have done but I havent yet."

Spoiler:

By their second encounter (from River's POV) in the angels one River is much more interactive with Amy and as bit less cautious. Each time River meets Amy, from River's perspective, they get closer.

Plot holes? thats the pot calling the kettle black I can hear.
Moffat's just using the Pandorica as a handy get-out clause to solve whatever problem he has painted himself into with the crazy plot. The whole idea of the full gamut of enemies just to lock The Doctor up for all eternity seems ridiculous too. If he's such a great big threat why not just kill him until his remaining regenerations are finished? The plot device that Amy has to 'Remember' Rory and then Rory has to 'Remember' Amy, and then Amy has to 'Remember' the Doctor is totally cringe making rubbish. The Doctor just turning up at the wedding all jolly like nothing had just happened is such a big fat suspension of disbelief too far into parody and up its own ass for comfort.

He doesnt turn up as if nothing has happened- he turned up as if his genius plan has worked, because it has. "Lucky Im wearing this old thing then" he says giving away the fact he knew how it was going to work out- as he nearly always does- he  is supposed to be the cleverest being in existence after all.

You can not like the Pandorica but its a plot devise as opposed to a plot hole- its perfectly explained in the episode how it functions and why its capable of what it does (and it only works because its thrown into the heart of a TARDIS exploding at all points in space and time at once- that a TARDIS has the potential to be rigged to cause this was established way back in classic Who, on its own the Pandorica would have been useless) so I dont mind you not liking it, but its not a plot hole in any way at all- its fully explained,

The series 7 box set has been announced- it will be released on the 28th of October.
As well as all the episodes and xmas episodes the specials on it are-

Audio commentaries for: The Snowmen, Cold War, Hide and The Crimson Horror

"Prequels" for: The Doctor, The Widow and The Wardrobe, Asylum of the Daleks, The Snowmen (x3), The Bells of Saint John and The Name of the Doctor (x2)
   
Pond Life
   
The Making of the Gunslinger
   
Creating Clara
   
Behind the scenes featurettes for every episode
   
Additional featurettes: Doctor Who in the US, Last Days of the Ponds, The Science of Doctor Who, The Companions and Doctor Who at Comic Con.

Gtot to admit when you see the list of acting and writing talent on the last series of Who it does give a warm glow that the show is attracting that calibre of performers and writers-

'guest stars includes John Hurt (Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy), Warwick Davis (Willow, the Harry Potter films), Liam Cunningham (Game of Thrones), David Warner (Titanic, TRON), Dougray Scott (Hemlock Grove, Ever After: A Cinderella Story), Ben Browder (Farscape), David Bradley (Game of Thrones), Jessica Raine (Call The Midwife, The Woman in Black), the mother-daughter duo of Dame Diana Rigg (Game of Thrones) and Rachael Stirling (Women in Love, Snow White and the Huntsman), and the voice of Sir Ian McKellen (The Lord of The Rings films). The episodes are written by lead writer and executive producer Steven Moffat, as well as Neil Gaiman, Mark Gatiss, Neil Cross, Chris Chibnall, Toby Whithouse and Stephen Thompson.'

Although not sure of their choices of examples- I mean David Warner- and the best they could think of that he was in was Tron?!

'He doesnt turn up as if nothing has happened- he turned up as if his genius plan has worked, because it has'.

There wasnt a Genius plan, he was convinced he was about to die, hence the maudlin weepy scenes. Unless you mean mainpulating someone while they are asleep to get what you want. The Genius plan was for Amy to Remember him? thats pretty underwhelming.

'its fully explained',
I disagree, the Pandorica plot is made up as it went along, plot holes were filled by glaringly convenient 'oh but its not only a prison it can ressurect you as well' moments that stretch belief past breaking point.

"The Genius plan was for Amy to Remember him? thats pretty underwhelming."

I didnt think so, not when its the culmination of the entire series story arc building towards such a moment. Its not an RTD pulled out the hat at the last minute thing, its been built up and layered the entire series.

"plot holes were filled by glaringly convenient 'oh but its not only a prison it can ressurect you as well'"

Except it doesnt resurrect no matter how often you insist it does, and doesnt do so in the episode- Amy is kept in stasis on the point of dying, she isnt brought back from the dead she is just healed.
And to me the reason the Pandorica does this- to keep the Doctor in stasis so he cant regenerate (which produces an immense amount of energy when it happens, quite possibly enough for him to break out the prison were it to happen whilst he is inside it) makes sense- they've been trying to kill him for a thousand years without success, Im amazed they didnt think to try something different like this sooner.

have I got your crabbit flowing yet?  I am doing my best here you know. Its like unblocking a sink or a ley line or something, its my role to let the juice of crabbit flow freely, and a darn good job too.