Sherlock - BBC [2]

I disagree. Most bees never have any part in reproduction, they are just there to keep the hive alive. Can't some people create a similar function for themselves? Monks, nuns supposedly do.

yes I agree. asexual behaviour is not inhuman, its just another part of free choice or state of mind or hormonal balance. there have always been celibates in society from ancient times to modern

Pettytyrant101 wrote:What is the purpose of humanity if not to pass their genetic material on to the next generation? Its inhuman in that sense- it goes against the most basic natural urge and purpose of life- to perpetuate life.

If your measure for what is "human" is passing on ones genetic material, then you could describe any number of things as "inhuman": homosexuality, having a vasectomy or hysterectomy, taking a vow of celibacy as Halfwise mentions, or even just choosing not to have children.  However, I don't think that such biological reductionism is particularly useful, nor does it reflect the reality of human existence, where people have any number of non-biological motivations, from the psychological to the sociological to the whimsical.

I think you could argue that repressing sexuality is almost a defining characteristic of humanity. Can you think of another species that imposes so many confusing rules on itself? 

why do u disagree with me Petty? i basecially say the exact same thing, he chooses work over sex and thinks it's distracting. the only difference is that i don't think he is asexual. we never know what happens between him and Irene, and i don't want to. We don't know if there is a watson+holmes=<3. the thing is, i don't want Holmes' sexuality ever to be explained. not by that he's asexual/homosexual/heterosexual etc.etc. i think i want that to be a mystery. personally i think he has the same urges as anyone else, he just chooses to ignore them and yeah.... maybe there is somehting we don't know, but we don't need to know. HOlmes isn't a sex-symbol (well.. maybe now that Benedict came along) he's a detective and that's where the focus of the story should be (and therefor i hate the CBS version.. )

agree with david. any sexuality is human. the mere fact that we have so many and can "choose" and all that, suggests we're human (because now the most important thing in society isn't necessarily to reproduce, but to spend the fair amount of your life around loved ones)

I thought you'd actually come around and were watching the CBS version. It's not on the level of the BBC's Sherlock but it's not bad, it just takes a while to get going. (I know, I was surprised to find myself having that opinion too. )

'Most bees never have any part in reproduction, they are just there to keep the hive alive.'- Halfwise

Purely in order to ensure the success of the next generation- the individual is not engaged in sex, the activity they are engaged in however is sill driven by the same impetus- to secure the genetic material of the hive. There activity is still sex placed, just indirectly.

'asexual behaviour is not inhuman, its just another part of free choice or state of mind or hormonal balance. there have always been celibates in society from ancient times to modern'- Mrs Figg

Celibacy is a choice, one of mind over physical urges- it is not asexual, which is an absence or lack of those basic urges.

'I don't think that such biological reductionism is particularly useful, nor does it reflect the reality of human existence, where people have any number of non-biological motivations, from the psychological to the sociological to the whimsical. '- Eldo

Non-biological motivations are a transient factor as they only last the length of time the individual holding them does- in a sense so long as there is a large and stable genetic pool they are inconsequential- whats important to the species is the continuation of the species, every other variable can only exist to the extent that it does not impact on the success of that.

'the only difference is that i don't think he is asexual.'- Norc

On that we disagree, I think his view of women in the books is more than intellectual choice.
He is in fact very sexist up until The Woman, where he only tends to take women into account as motivating factors in cases, not as important in and of themselves. They are no more relevant to him than a footprint or fingerprint, and treated on exactly the same level.

any sexuality is human.- Norc

Agreed, including homosexuality or any other type you care to name. Which is why I used inhuman to describe Holmes as I believe he has no sexuality, therefore its inhuman in that sense.

I dont think Sherlock is repressed in the normal sense, he isnt about to explode and snog Mrs Hudson, I think sex is not in his character he is an observer of humanity, dispassionate thats why he is so great at his job. I think he is appalled and fascinated by the animal side of humanity.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:Non-biological motivations are a transient factor as they only last the length of time the individual holding them does- in a sense so long as there is a large and stable genetic pool they are inconsequential- whats important to the species is the continuation of the species, every other variable can only exist to the extent that it does not impact on the success of that.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that ensuring the long term survival of the species is pretty far from most people's minds when they're trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives.  Maybe if the Earth got hit by a gigantic meteor and wiped out 99% of the population, then it would be important for people to think about how they're going to help the species propagate.  As it is, we're not in danger of dying out anytime soon, and we're also not driven solely by biological instincts. I'm still not sure what the relevance of reductionism is to people's actual lives as opposed to the abstract species as a whole (which has never actually acted in concert as a whole at any point in history).

The species doesnt have to act as a whole, or consciously- all that matters is that the biological drive to reproduce is strong enough and present enough in the population that the species continues through time.
Individuals only matter to individuals- you only need to look at the amount of things on this planet who barely live long enough to breed before dropping dead. Their entire existence is of surviving long enough to breed then dying as they are no longer needed to perform their function.
Humans might be more complex but the big picture is exactly the same.

I would not call it reductionism, quite the opposite, its a wider view of humanity, not as a mass of individuals but as a pool of genetic material that survives and adapts and alters across the entirety of time (or until a meteor hits us or we blow ourselves up at least!) I find it rather awesome myself.

I guess my concern with that worldview is where it leaves people who, for whatever reason, can't or don't want to reproduce. I see human existence as being whatever people want to make of it, which doesn't have to include reproduction. At the very least, I'm deeply uncomfortable with the "inhuman" descriptor.

I am one of those people who have chosen not to reproduce (so far!) Eldo.
Inhuman is not perhaps the best choice for what I am trying to convey- the difference I see with Holmes is that he lacks sexual urges in the normal sense most people have them, for whatever they have them.
He observes women, and he factors them in only so far as they impinge on his work. And that's it.
Except, possibly, for The Woman, and even there in the book there is no hint of physical lust, only admiration for her skill and intellect and Watson, although he leaves a tiny wiggle room, concludes with this view of it himself.

Well now I'm in the same boat as Norc in that I'm not sure what we were disagreeing about.

'Celibacy is a choice, one of mind over physical urges- it is not asexual, which is an absence or lack of those basic urges. Petty

yes I know celebacy is a choice, at the beginning, but it has been found (cant find the article) that monks and nuns who go without sex for decades and train their minds to not think about sex, do actually become asexual in time. If you ask the High Lama or an Indian holy man who lives on next to nothing I pretty much guarantee they have transcended sex and all animalistic thoughts, thus they have become asexual.

I think you two are confused between Pettys opinion based on biological needs and Eldos opinion based on free will. All animals need to reproduce to survive its inprinted on them like needing to eat. but humans have free will and can choose.

Norc seemed to be saying that she felt Holmes had normal sexual urges, he just suppresses and controls them.
I am saying he lacks those normal sexual urges in the first place.


'monks and nuns who go without sex for decades and train their minds to not think about sex, do actually become asexual in time'- Mrs Figg

Perform any action or thought repetitively for long enough and it becomes habit. Basis of all human learning, so hardly surprising.
There could be an argument made that a young Sherlock habituated himself into lacking sexual urges by the time of early adulthood.

I think he is borderline sociopath or something like that, I think its just the way he was made. I think his cases teach him to empathize with human frailties

but humans have free will and can choose.- Mrs Figg

Only to a point, its got natural limits on it- if the genetic pool is very small and all the males choose to be homosexual the species dies out.
In a sense free will increases with mass of population- its a luxury that cannot always be afforded during harsh times for a species where an individuals failure to reproduce may have dire consequences on a species as a whole- such as is the case right now with many endangered species.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:but humans have free will and can choose.- Mrs Figg

Only to a point, its got natural limits on it- if the genetic pool is very small and all the males choose to be homosexual the species dies out.
In a sense free will increases with mass of population- its a luxury that cannot always be afforded during harsh times for a species where an individuals failure to reproduce may have dire consequences on a species as a whole- such as is the case right now with many endangered species.

well thats not going to happen is it, the males are not all going to choose to be homoxesual, it would never happen. and humans are far from being endangered, there are too many of us already. rules are different for animals.

We are animals Mrs Figg. The rules are exactly the same.

no they are not. we have evolved free will and can choose

Petty wrote:Celibacy is a choice, one of mind over physical urges- it is not asexual, which is an absence or lack of those basic urges.

exaclty, so Holmes has urges, but he chooses to ignore it and focus his energy elswehere.

Petty wrote:'the only difference is that i don't think he is asexual.'- Norc

On that we disagree, I think his view of women in the books is more than intellectual choice.
He is in fact very sexist up until The Woman, where he only tends to take women into account as motivating factors in cases, not as important in and of themselves. They are no more relevant to him than a footprint or fingerprint, and treated on exactly the same level.

sexist, yes, perhaps, remember the time holmes was written. but i don't think that him being sexist and not interested jistifies him being asexual.

Yes we can choose Mrs Figg, but there limits on how successful that is- and those limits are biological- there has to be a large stable genetic pool, larger the better in terms of variation within a species.
The bubonic plague wiped out a third of the population of Europe- what if the next thing to come along doubles that on a global scale, or worse? What if the planet is struck again by a meteorite and the population is dramatically reduced?
Then individual choice has a much more direct outcome on species success.
And humans under those circumstances are no different to any other biological creature.

Norc- I dont think Holmes does have those urges. His mind is purely analytical, not sexual.