Holidays and absences

Yep, there's a totally mixed bag in the sex industry, and you've got to do your homework. If there was some easy way to check in each case weather a woman was in charge of her destiny or not, it would do a world of good.

Ive been to Torino several times, when I was footloose & fancy free   Stayed once at the Turin Palace Hotel, lovely hotel but, most nights there are the "girls", each working their own patch. There's also a dodgy area called Via Nizza, red light area again plus other nasty habits like stalking,bag snatching,pick pocketing etc. One night, back here in good old Blighty, I watched a TV prog about girls from mainly Africa, Nigeria,Europe, all prostituting in Torino & why they were doing it. MOST were forced into it by pimps, threatened, blackmailed & beaten if they did not earn enough that night. They were specially picked from their homes with promises of a better life, which to these girls means FOOD ! which we kinda take for granted ?. Anyhow, camera's lead to a stunning woman, elegant to look at, classy dressed,parading outside the hotel I had stayed,(with my daughter). She was your "up market hooker", self employed, well paid. but the ones further along, poor sods ! looked worn down, worn out, miserable, sad eyed, poorly dressed but hey ! who cares as long as they give a cheap but good blow job ? ! Do they see a way out ? who's there to help them ? Spiders caught in a web ! & now probably wishing they were back home, but most cant, their families wouldnt have them back & would die of shame so, with no way out they just carry on, visit the clinic to make sure they dont have Aids etc & get back out tonight.

Yeah that is a large and terrible part of the business- but its stasis as being immoral and illegal dont help anyone.
I rather suspect it being viewed as immoral is because its women doing it and that if historically men had been the main prostitutes it would be a well respected career with good pay and benefits and a big awards ceremony every year.

Prostitution is going to happen-its always happened even in the few societies were women have been in positions of power- and some women can and do choose it as a career- just as women seem to choose careers in the late night get your tits out phone in channels or for page 3 or NUTS magazine or in porn.
Disapproving of it has never stopped it one iota. Which only leaves regulating it, putting in all the possible safeguards you can for the women who choose it- and it being a choice being the most important criteria.

*drags unpleasantness back into the light*

Eldorion wrote:You make some good points, Mrs Figg, but I feel that at least among the people in this thread, you are looking down on women who dress revealingly more than any of the men here.

So, I’ve been sleeping on it. And I am still upset. Am I overreacting? By not reacting I say that it is fine, just keep at it. So overreacting it is.

Starting with this.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398990/Girl-centre-internet-misogyny-row-drink-spiked-makes-complaint-sexual-assault.html

This is the world today. This is the wise and educated West of today.

This is why such bitch moves like you pulled there is disgusting and uneducated. Figgy left and I don’t blame her one bit. I am not the most well level tempered girl in the world, not by far. And now, hours later, I am still wondering if I should throw a drink in your face or pity you. So here's getting it of my chest. That comment is so lame that it is insulting to reply to it. I imagine you believe you worded yourself elegantly, which you generally do. But here you were simply repeating slime you have absorbed from friends, media, internet, school and everywhere your whole life. Of all the angles to choose, you went for the good old ‘women hates other women, ergo Figgy’s a bitch’. Why?

It was not a clever observation; it is a typical low blow, with a poor attempt to make it sound fresh and valid. You used the lack of Neanderthal heckling from the guys as proof that Figgy was being hateful, and implied: therefore not worth listening to. I love you to pieces, Eldo. But how did this sound good in your head? Shouldn’t you, having studied politics and all, be well equipped to see through the words and think: Whooa, what am I saying here?

You knew this subject is very close to Figgy's heart, you knew it matters deeply to her. And yet you did that, and apparently still think it's funny or... what ever the point was? So yes, that was a bitch move.  

You are not a child, you are a man. You are intelligent, clever, talented and funny. You are better than this.

Doesn’t it worry you that you jumped to this conclusion so rapidly? That there were no warning bells in your head? It worries me. I get worried when I catch myself judging a person or a group for no true, valid reason. I generalize people. I do it a lot, all the freaking time, because that’s what we have been taught and it is what humans do. It’s easier to do it than to question why. Too many individuals makes us confused. Us, them and those over there, that is easier. Don’t be easy. Be brilliant.

Just read your link Amarie & I feel sickened. I cant imagine how wretched that girl must feel. I can imagine tho all those young guys whooping & laughing & slapping the "receiver" on the back for being the lucky guy getting his dick "off'd" . Its just fooking sick !! This will live with her for always but him ? *shrug* 5minute distraction till the next blow job or whatever rings your bell ! Any remorse ? any conscience ?

Amarie that article is truly horrible but something that struck me in the article is the only named person to comment is  a woman,  - 'Bridget Moynihan tweeted that the girl 'has only herself to blame..... What did she expect.'

It is quite clear that when these things occur females are just as likely to call slut as men are.

Nor do I entirely see what relation that has to Eldo's observation- which was that Mrs Figg seemed to be looking down on other women who choose (and choice being the important thing) to work in the sex industry- going so far as to make generalized statements they were betraying feminism- is that not in fact a woman judging other women?
And in a debate on the subject is it not valid to call her out on that? Especially after she has just made accusations against the use of generalizing people?

When she left in reaction to it I honestly could not see what about Eldo's comment was so offensive as to warrant the manner in which she choose to word her parting message.

Amarië wrote: I generalize people. I do it a lot, all the freaking time, because that’s what we have been taught and it is what humans do. It’s easier to do it than to question why. Too many individuals makes us confused. Us, them and those over there, that is easier. Don’t be easy. Be brilliant.

Truer word were never spoken, Amarië!

First I want to say that the story in your link is disgusting, especially the cyper-bullying, but I think that in the past the abuse of women was no less common, just less newsworthy. So in a sense we're gaining by being able to talk about it and condemn it. I hope...

Now I'd like to defend Eldo without defending his statement.  I can't help remembering my own confusion when I was 18 trying to decode all the mixed gender messages. It's nearly impossible if you start with the premise that women and men are fundamentally different, which is what our culture teaches us. It wasn't until I realized that we are all human first, and the male/female, gay/straight divisions are really no more significant than nationalities, political parties, or sports team affiliation, that I was able to make any sense of it at all.

Both Petty and Mrs Figg are entrenched partisans in the age-old male/female debate. They both make their arguments well, they both draw blood often, and their debates are built on a foundation of mutual respect which makes it easy for me to forgive their frequent hyperbole.  But if I were 18 again I'm sure I would find myself taking sides, because it's what humans do, and the odds are good that I would choose the team that had the same organs as I do.  

The fundamental flaw in Eldo's logic is that it assumes that Forumshire is divided into two teams. That assumption divides us.  That's why I was troubled by the implied assumption that all strippers were women, or that all strippers are victims. Or in another thread that all rape victims are women.  In my opinion that's deliberately missing the point of common humanity.

Both Petty and Mrs Figg are entrenched partisans- David

Entrenched? Me?!  

" their frequent hyperbole"  

Enlightened by buckie crabbit drunken rants if you dont mind!  

"I would choose the team that had the same organs as I do."

Eldo's organs ain't like mine unless he has had everything pickled and marinated in buckie.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:

Entrenched? Me?!  
Enlightened by buckie crabbit drunken rants if you dont mind!  

I'll concede that perhaps the arguments are coming from a ditch rather than a trench. Is that better? 

Yes, but only because I'm magnanimous when drunk.  

Interesting about the naming, Petty. Perhaps she commented via facebook or something, but it is odd how she was the only one named.

I think much confusion is to weather we (or you or anybody) talks about all men/women in general, those spesific ones over there, the those who are here now. And how much of that the reader should be offended by.

I am confused about the apparent need to point out that women are cruel. Is it perhaps because when feminism is mentioned, one immediately thinks "they who hate men and feel women are superior and men are shit", so it's an attempt to gain balance, which we see as an attempt to undermine women and then we all dig ourselves a hole and all goes to hell from there?

*sees Dave mentioning trenches and laughs*

And of course, when asked why I got annoyed the answer will be very subjective.

{{{Don't tell Eldo that we don't really gain too much clarity about the female/male mystery with age. One just gets used to being confused and perhaps wiser about what not to say, even if one doesn't know why. I hope me yelling blowing off steam now saves him a slap or two in the future. Unless he likes that sort of thing, of course. }}}

I think its highly likely we all suffer from 'acquired' viewpoints on this that we have simply accepted over life because thats how things are in society- and it sometimes takes an incident close to home to make us stop and really question why we think a certain thing.

In general terms on this forum, unless the subject matter touches on the male/female thing I really dont give it much thought, if at all when replying to posts- Im a drunken reactionary- someone says something, I respond- what sex the person posting it is doesnt come into it 99% of the time- hell I dont even really know what sex everyone is beyond what they say it is, this is the internet and Norc could really be a 40 year old truck driver from Essex and Eldo an aging spinster in Tipperary for all I really know.

Strangely the exception to this is Mrs Figg, because he has Mrs in her username so every time I read it all the associations with Mrs Ive accumulated are no doubt triggered off somewhere in my addled brain.

I used to be that truck driver from Essex

Well, she is your web wife, so that's not so strange I guess.  

I used to be that truck driver from Essex - Azriel

 Ha! I knew someone here was.

she is your web wife, so that's not so strange I guess. - Amarie

I think that might be was! {{{But I hope not and she comes back soon- David was spot on about one thing he said- I do respect her, a great deal- I just also disagree with her, a lot!}}}

Amarië wrote:

I am confused about the apparent need to point out that women are cruel. Is it perhaps because when feminism is mentioned, one immediately thinks "they who hate men and feel women are superior and men are shit", so it's an attempt to gain balance, which we see as an attempt to undermine women and then we all dig ourselves a hole and all goes to hell from there?

I'm sure that's part of it. Here's another theory that I think is also part.  Humans can be very cruel, even nice humans. It can be very disturbing.  There is a part of us who wants to distance ourselves from the cruelty by assigning it to another group, whether national, social, racial or gender, and say "My group isn't like that. " But the truth is we're all capable of cruelty.  

Add to this the confusion about genders, and the cruelty of the other sex can appear even more disturbing. I know there are "chick flicks" in which the verbal violence is so cruel that I can't watch it. I hate that kind of drama! But on the other hand I can watch the physical violence of a "man movie" with no problem at all. Many women I know are the reverse.  It's easy to feel that the other is somehow crueler  because we don't understand it.

{{{Don't tell Eldo that we don't really gain too much clarity about the female/male mystery with age. One just gets used to being confused and perhaps wiser about what not to say, even if one doesn't know why. I hope me yelling blowing off steam now saves him a slap or two in the future. Unless he likes that sort of thing, of course. }}}

{{{Yeah, no point in disillusioning him.  He'll figure it out on his own soon enough.   }}}

Hmm...it seems the reasons Amarie and Figgy are so upset is because they see deeper consequences to young women acting in sexually provocative ways, while many of the men are saying "we're not going to look down on her, so she can do what she wants and more power to her!"

Remember that Eldo (as he pointed out earlier) is usually the one who is quick to jump on anyone who makes sexual generalizations.  It seems that he simply mistook Figgy's alarm for looking down on women who sexualize themselves, when in fact she may have been going into protective mode: they are setting themselves up for danger.  I think there are multiple misunderstandings in both directions here.

Forgive me for generalizing, but men will often take the simplest reading in social situations, women will see deeper layers.  I don't see any attacks on anybody going on here, just misreadings of what people are saying.  Usually the case when feelings get hurt...

{{{ Eldo's still at the age when he thinks relations between the sexes should be simple and based on "there is no difference".  He's about 97% right.  it's the remaining 3% that will get ya.  When you least expect it.  }}}

"Forgive me for generalizing, but men will often take the simplest reading in social situations, women will see deeper layers."

True. In the end we do seem to come to some sort of understanding though, if we just hang in there.

Typical while I'm a bit indisposed!  People have what appears to be a damn fine barney - and Halfy is at his trade of making totally wild and outlandish assertions! - there is at least a 4% difference between Men and Women...

We wont get to better understanding unless we talk honestly to each other- thats always the first best step and something a forum like this gives a chance for. And one of the reasons I like it here so much is the woman folk are generally so wonderfully patient with us men. (and we have a pretty good balance- not over dominated by male or female or one age group or another)


Orwell! I was going to email you as I was thinking earlier you'd be kicking yourself at missing this one.  

Well... this thread has gone to shit since I last looked in....

Figgy - you will return soon cause you cant keep away. And if you dont return then who will make me do my book finally? I have been working hard on it recently but going on strike till you come back and abuse... sorry... encourage me more!

I've quickly read the most recent posts (which in relative terms may in fact be the more gentler ones if I read between the lines correctly  !) and now must go back to the start. I warn you though - I won't have anyone bashing genuine good hearted Eldo who, though a totally incompetent Admin, is someone who would never ever hurt anyone or deliberately hold sexist views (intentionally). I don't care if I have to fight everyone - gender inclusive - to defend him.  I suspect he will be feeling like shit at the moment. (Oh yes, Mrs Figg, at this eaerly stage, come back. You are are not allowed to leave Forumshire permanetly. It's an Unwritten Rule! Don't make me come and spank you - only in these particular circumstances, mind...)

I'll go off and read then, shall I ... back soon ... (but don't say you all haven't been warned though!   )

None of it was my fault! Especially the bits where it looks like it is.

Isnt that what you usually say Petty ?  

Hey! Let's blame it on Squach!