Holidays and absences

Eldorion wrote:You make some good points, Mrs Figg, but I feel that at least among the people in this thread, you are looking down on women who dress revealingly more than any of the men here.

Wow. Just... wow. What a statement to make.

I'd respond to your objection, Amarie, if there was literally anything in your post to indicate what specifically you're taking issue with other than a general sense of indignation.

NB I already elaborated on that post in my response to Mrs Figg (though it turned out she was actually addressing Petty).

erm.. what eldo? isn't it obvious?

Squach wrote:You're just an Innorccent bystander

nice one

Norc wrote:erm.. what eldo? isn't it obvious?

I'd rather know for certain what Amarie's objection is rather than assuming, though obviously yes I can make an educated guess as to about what she's going to say.

But seriously, I've gotten into arguments with Petty and maybe also Halfwise over comments they've made about women and gender before. I've also been a snarky asshole to them about it. But I don't think either of them look at strippers or racy models as nothing but slabs of meat. As I said in an earlier post, there are of course plenty of guys who think about women that way, but I don't think you can assume that anyone who looks at strippers or porn stars or whatever is thinking that way.

I'd been hoping to stay on the sidelines eating popcorn, but I've got a question...

I've known several people, both men and women, who've helped pay their college expenses as exotic dancers. They've explained that dancing doesn't interfere with studying like many jobs do, and the pay is fantastic. While I never considered it myself, I kind of admire them. It's something I couldn't do.

So my question is: if it's OK for guys, why does everybody on both sides here seem to think it's different for women? 

it's funny. when a woman is a stripper it's looked down upon, but when a man is he's applauded.

I'm pretty sure that moral conservatives look down on strippers of both genders.

Is anyone on this forum (which is the extent of what my post was about) looking down on strippers of either gender, though?

srsly? women applaud manly strippers (e.g. that actor, he was on Ellen). but if a woman finds out another woman is a stripper, she's a slut. dunno what men think, i think they mostly don't think strippers make good girlfriends or whatever, but they do enjoy it. and when it comes to men, i don't think they care all that much, so yes, i still stand by what i said, men get easier away with it than women.

Okay, well if your comment is about how women treat women who are strippers, then I'm not sure if there's anything to disagree about in my earlier post.

my comment is about people, both female and male. i just felt i had to make it clearer, read the second one the one above ur reply.

Eldorion wrote:I'm pretty sure that moral conservatives look down on strippers of both genders.

Is anyone on this forum (which is the extent of what my post was about) looking down on strippers of either gender, though?

The word Bimbo was were I started thinking there might be a double standard.

I would think the culture had evolved enough so that people don't automatically look down on women who parade their sexuality. The old feeling still hangs around, though.

Petty and I and others may make comments about gender because on an average sense they do exist, but in the overall scheme of things the differences are so small that their very existence stands out and makes them funny, and occasionally exasperating. How many women can tell stories about riding around with men driving cars who absolutely will not stop and ask directions?

In Ally McBeal David Kelly once made the point that strip clubs are actually places for exploiting MEN. Vacuum their wallet, throw them out if they misbehave. Many strip clubs are owned by women, and it's very clear who's in charge. It's the men who are being treated like animals, not the women. I fully approve.  And yes, I'd call such places examples of feminism: those women have nothing to be ashamed of.

Norc wrote:srsly? women applaud manly strippers (e.g. that actor, he was on Ellen). but if a woman finds out another woman is a stripper, she's a slut. dunno what men think, i think they mostly don't think strippers make good girlfriends or whatever, but they do enjoy it. and when it comes to men, i don't think they care all that much, so yes, i still stand by what i said, men get easier away with it than women.

I think men are totally confused by male strippers: showing skin normally doesn't work for us.  Just too unfamiliar with the concept to wrap our heads around it and judge the 0.2% of men for whom it does work.

As for the 'bimbo' term Dave mentioned, please not that I originally paired it with 'lunkhead'.  Double standard?  In both cases I'd say it refers to someone who has no talent outside of their body.  In most cases the body is only used to leverage other more significant talents.

edit: as in usually there are no bimbos or lunkheads - people normally have a talent. And then there's Kim Kardashian....

true halfwise, have u seen the movie "full monty"? it's about exactly that.

I don't think anyone here thinks a stripper of any gender is a lesser human being. At least I really don't hope anyone does.

It's the reason for the stripping I 'worry' about, male or female. Dancing to pay for college because you choose to is not the same as dancing to pay for college because you have no other way of earning money. And milking drooling men/women for money feels like double edged sword to me. Yes, you may be in charge, but the morals behind paying someone to take their clothes is still very questionable. What is the paying guest's thoughts on this? "Gee, what an independent woman that is" or "ooo, slutty!"

There are too many victims and too many creeps of both genders for me to see stripping in general as a harmless activity.

yes agree, the reason is far more important.

although i do think people, even though we don't like to admit it, react differently to male and female strippers. sub-conciously or whatever.

It has to be done in a carefully controlled adult fashion, like bungee jumping. I admit to having been in strip clubs, and have seen how carefully managed they are. I think the weak point is how they are tied to alcohol: that's when people's sense of respect begins to slip. But given how much more money they make when coupled to alcohol I don't think that will be fixed.

Yes, respect, that is the key word. That's what it's all about. Ugh, how cheesy. Feminism is about (mutual) respect and equality.

bingo. Yes men ARE capable of respecting women they are attracted to. Most definitely.

As for the reasons for why people turn to stripping, I'm sure it will always be as mixed a bag as for any low skill work.

It's the prostitutes I worry about. Nobody does that except out of desperation; they are always victims of someone or something, even where it's legal.

Thank you everybody. I'm going back to the popcorn...oh! a new smiley! 

halfwise wrote:
It's the prostitutes I worry about.  Nobody does that except out of desperation; they are always victims of someone or something, even where it's legal.

I wouldnt say that. I know of people that have been is reasonably well paid jobs and have turned to 'escorting' because they can make in 1 night the same as they did in a month. There issue there is where anything is illegal or subject to too many controls, it goes underground and then people are open to being abused.

I think it is funny that a lot of people use their own views on sexuality to justify their stance on the sex industry. Some people do it because they want to. Why should they be denied that? I have worked in jobs I bloody hate just to get paid. Self esteem and depression arent only linked to sexual things so why the focus on that? If it is regulated and workers are given the right protection.... why the hell not?

Got to agree Lance- I am generally against prohibition as it always seem counterproductive in the end- ban something and you instantly both glamourise it and put it in the hands of unregulated criminals.
Escorting is a job of choice, less likely to be a desperate act like becoming a street prostitute which is full of personal risk.  I have known of women who have treated escorting just as the people you mention have- a job that's they enjoy most of it- being taken out by wealthy clients, bought meals and the choice of whether to offer a particular client 'extras' is up to them.
Ive certainly done worse types of job that Ive enjoyed less.
I had a female friend many years ago who used to view it this way- most girls her age dress provocatively, go out of a night, get plastered, go home with someone whom they slept with and then never saw again after the following morning.
"Why give away what you can charge for?" was her point of view (she worked as a stripper in Glasgow's first official lap dancing club- it was her that I was with that time I ended up in one of Glasgow's biggest nightclubs with pink hair and a red dress on!   )
And Ive met few women quite as fiercely independent as she was (she was also from an affluent middle class background, privately educated and an excellent pianist)

I was making my statement based on the Amsterdam prostitutes, of whom something like 80% are foreign: that should set alarm bells off right there. Interviews have shown that most of them were tricked into it by "boyfriends" who bring them over, then get them in financial trouble and suggest prostitution as way out. Then the "boyfriend" mysteriously disappears.

As for the high class escorts, something to look into (umm...not what I meant! ) I suppose if you charge enough it acts as a filter, but unless the women are choosing the men I don't know how they feel about it.

There does seem to be a dividing line between prostitutes (who are visited) and escorts (who are called), but I don't know how strong a dividing line it is. I certainly don't look down on them, but I worry that more of them may be victims of circumstance then their clients may realize.

So long as there's respect I don't look down on their clients either, but I don't know how often that's there. Has this been studied? Is it even amenable to study? if there's respect then it's a business transaction between consenting adults and I don't see a problem. Definitely if an escort is hired to take out on a public date first then there's some respect. Hmm...maybe this should be a requirement?

It's the men who would hire a women and then DARE to look down on her because of it...that's when I want to knock heads. As for those who may coerce women into those positions in the first place  !

I watched a documentary on prostitution in Britain  years ago, and there was a woman had been on the game for nearly 20 years.
She went to her clients in their home.
She had her own rules. All the men she went to were single, most of them were in some fashion socially awkward or inept. And she had been going to them for years in most cases.
She spoke of what she did for a living more in the way you might expect a social worker to talk.
Her position overall was that these men still had the same needs any other men had, but for whatever reasons were not socially capable of fulfilling them.
Always struck me as an interesting perspective.

I dont know about Amsterdam, but I would be surprised if that is the case Halfy, and horrified.
One would hope that by taking prostitution off the streets the industry would then be properly scrutinised and regulated, not just for stuff like this, but safety, both personal and health.

If thats not the case I dont see the point of legalising it.