Holidays and absences [2]

did anyone even notice i was gone? :u

weren't gone long. Pages of stuff fly by when I go to bed, I figured you had just gone out for a pint.

oh

Orwell wrote:

Ringdrotten wrote:Eldo's two-line comment is blown way out of proportions by more than one person here, and he's been unfairly treated for it, among other things he's been patronised by both Amarie and Orwell.

No, I can't let this pass. You might see it as completely harmless. I see it as being, however unintentional, quite offensive in context.

I don't see it as 100% harmless, but I still think more has been read into it than should have been. But I think it has been discussed more than should have been too, and I think, like you say, we should agree to disagree, and let it be - I can of course understand that others perceive things differently, and have no problems with that.

Orwell wrote:As for Amarie, she is incredibly tactful (...)  Deriding her 'sweet' talk is way off the mark btw.  

I agree that she is incredibly tactful, and I both respect and like her a lot. However, Igot a little angry myself and should perhaps have followed my own advice of thinking things through three times first, but that is nonetheless how I perceived her reply to Eldo. Still, I'm going to swallow some pride and admit that I went against all that I wrote in my own post and worded myself like an idiot, and for that I'd like to apologise to Amarie.

Orwell wrote:
I'm flabbergasted that Ringo thought I (or Amarie) was genuinely patronizing at any time. I really would like to hear Eldo's view. I thought on our part we just had a straight out differing of opinion, debated on equal terms. Though, on reflection, he did descend to calling me 'dumb'.  So maybe he was patronizing me.  

As one standing on the side (ok, that's not possible on a forum, but you get the picture ) it looked that way, at least to me it did. If you say you never meant to condescend anyone, I'll believe you.

Orwell wrote:
You're the one patronizing him. The irony of that is sweet

That one I want explained.

¨
Edit: I feel I owe you an explanation myself. The posts where I perceived you as condescending were on page 64, when Eldo was clearly upset/angry, and you kept replying to his posts with smileys. Even if no harm was meant by this, as you say (and like I said above, I believe you when you say it), it still looks very patronising. Sadly, written language can't convey everything, and misunderstandings often occur as a result.

pretty much everyone has retracted some sort of comment ...apart from Orwell

I am trying to think when the rot set in and I think it was in the 2000s. feminism had got to the stage where we thought it was all going a bit stale and then 'icons' like Madonna thought it would shake up the establishment by using their bodies to shock, which is ok if you have a political statement behind the nudity, but I think it got diluted so that to get naked was just a part of a nebulous blanket Girl Power thing, all mouth and no trousers like the Spice Girls, I mean their dizzy height was one of them marrying a footballer and so WAGS was born, a girl just had to marry a footballer to get what she really really wants. Then came Jordan and all those gruesome plastic babes and things went downhill, even naked pregnancy was paraded like Demi Moore on the cover of international magazines with her bump out. The female body was firmly entrenched as a means to sell products, even 'I would rather go naked than wear fur' PETA. publicity stunts for political statements or selling cars, everything became about sex and naked bodies. Motorists were crashing their cars in front of 'Hello Boys' bra adverts. I dont want Victorian values either, there were child prostitutes walking the streets of London while scandalized ladies were fainting at suggestive piano legs. But the West needs to take stock and redress the balance in favour of respect. Its a nasty world where an academic like Mary Beard gets death threats because she wont conform to dolly bird stereotypes.

I think a lot of teens and young people are afraid of Feminist as a label. I know I was. I thought it was a bad thing until I was like 17.  Until then, every element of society that I encountered said they were loudmouthed judgmental hippie lesbians. It was intense. But I'm not a bitchy feminist, I'm a human with a fucking brain. And if that makes me a bitchy feminist, then woof woof motherfuckers.

I keep looking up "jordan" and getting anything but who's being discussed here. Please help.

Try Katie Price ?

did anyone even notice i was gone?- CC

I did! I even cracked a joke somewhere about how annoying it is you and Ally always seem to go on  holiday at the same time.  But its probably got lost somewhere under a pile of posts pointing out how sexist I am!   

Im all for blaming it all on the Spice Girls.  

Halfy- try katie price- jordan is her 'trade' name. For the full picture do an image search with safe search off!

I think Carly makes a good point: for a long time "feminist" was seen as "anti-feminine", and we are living in the backlash.

Beyonce said: "I don't really feel that it's necessary to define it. It's just something that's kind of natural for me, and I feel like it's what I live for. I need to find a catchy new word for feminism, right? Like Bootylicious."

Dont worry CC Beyonce has got it sussed, dont call yourself feminist call yourself Bootylicious.  

azriel wrote:Try Katie Price ?

Well, um... ... as a western of the male persuasion I can hardly voice any disapproval.   But it's certainly a difficult model for little girls to face.

She is pretty much a self created industry here- she has reality shows, clothes lines, make up, her name on books (ghost written from her ideas!) she has a newspaper coloumn in the Sun and she is worth millions.
The problem is that she is famous for her huge breasts, repeated short term publicity marriages and being in the newspapers by falling out of her dress as she falls drunkenly out of nightclubs (although in fairness she does that a lot less now than she once did).

Mrs Figg wrote:Beyonce said: "I don't really feel that it's necessary to define it. It's just something that's kind of natural for me, and I feel like it's what I live for. I need to find a catchy new word for feminism, right? Like Bootylicious."

Dont worry CC Beyonce has got it sussed, dont call yourself feminist call yourself Bootylicious.  

So Beyonce wants to stop saying "feminism" and use "bootylicious" instead? Because feminism should be a branding opp for her back catalog?

her new music tour is called ' The Mrs Carter Tour', I think that says it all  just how feminist she really is. she is trying to be ironic and cool about being a wife of a famous guy, but the message is a bit Doris Day imo.

The Mrs Carter Tour ?? !! Eh ?? WTF ??

Y'all give Beyonce way 2 much credit. She isn't the second coming of the feminist movement, she's a product- an image manufactured to suit u by the record companies

CC12 35 wrote: Until then, every element of society that I encountered said they were loudmouthed judgmental hippie lesbians. It was intense.

Hey! Some of my best friends are loudmouthed judgmental hippie lesbians!  

my best girlfriend is a lesbian

Thats handy for you CC.  

 

Lance consider yourself booted up the bum. Have you finished your book yet?  and if not, why not?  
srsly when its published I will buy it.

CC12 35 wrote:pretty much everyone has retracted some sort of comment ...apart from Orwell

What would I need to apologize for? I haven't changed my opinion on anything I have said. Nothing I have said has been insulting or patronizing. The ideas I have contributed adhere directly to what I believe. I put in caveats where here and there and quite plainly said that I might be mistaken about things, with the implication being, I need to be persuaded (or filled in) where I am wrong. I don't believe in apologies as some sort of Peer group therapy. For better or worse, I try to be honest. To apologise for anything just to appear a good person would be against my personal Ethics - wrong to do, in other words. Maybe I could apologise for my sense of humour, which I've sewed into this thread here and there - but I like my humour.

Now (for example), if someone was to show me something that was actually 'patronizing', I'd apologise. But "I'm sorry you thought I was patronizing"? That wouldn't actually be an apology.. or would it?  Mmm... "I'm sorry Ringo you thought I was patronizing"? Well, I'm sorry, Ringo, that you felt that way - but I won't ask you to apologise for feeling that way.

Oh yes, Ringo, as to your query about how you patronized Eldo yourself, I jumped into Eldo's boots for a minute (or tried to), and thought, "I feel talked down to by Orwell." When Eldo indicates he does feel that way, I'll address it. If he shows me anything I actually said that's patronizing - on further reflection - I'll apologise. If he only 'feels' patronized, but it turns out it's only his misconception of what I said, we'll clean it up, as friends do. It was a worthy thing for you to defend Eldo under that misconception, but I still think it was your (honest) misconception, but aren't you at risk od patronizing him by doing so? Maybe not. I was really only joking about that anyway. You were no more patronizing than I was.  I'm just a smart arse - as you should know by now. And that's not being patronizing to say it, it's my genuine belief.

I sense some tongue-in-cheek in your comment, Kooky (you idiot!  ) and it does make me smile, but I don't want to risk people thinking I owe anyone any apologies. Show me any crime I've committed, and then I'll apologise. I'm not saying it's not possible I need to apologise for something, but please show me the proof. At this point, I'm not retreating. Read my posts here. If you find aything for me to apologise about, please point it out. I'm not against apologise - just doing them with the sole purpose of smoothing things out seems immoral.

Am I taking your post too seriously, Kooky? Not at all. Just as the "two line" discussion was never anything but worthy of serious discussion. I never took it too seriously though - or over reacted. The principles involved were important. Mrs Figg was accused of something that was wrong - though luckilly not put with malicious intent - and those two lines held a huge weight in context.  She has explained why herself - and incredibly tactfully (which was rather refreshing on her part...  ). I was always keen to treat the weight of it appropriately. I weighed things on the hurt scale, from the view of the the one who receives, not the one who delivers, while being crystal clear (in my opinion) about the deliverers responsibilities.

For all that, I still think we're all friends here. No actual blood was spilled, and I still deeply admire and respect Eldo - he just might have supplied a wee apology, one which now, with the cleaning of waters here, probably is unnecessary.

And good of you to back track a little, Ringo. You obviously thought you needed to, and I agree, and respect you for doing that.  Especially in regard to your comments to Amarie who didn't deserve the attack you made on her. But all is well, you have acted honorably - which I know you always will. (My straight belief, no patronization intended!)

I like this forum because people are honest and always apologise when they need to - but (hopefully) only when it's Ethical to do so.

Now - the next post... {{{Why do people post so often when I'm sleeping?  }}}

CC12 35 wrote:I think a lot of teens and young people are afraid of Feminist as a label. I know I was. I thought it was a bad thing until I was like 17.  Until then, every element of society that I encountered said they were loudmouthed judgmental hippie lesbians. It was intense. But I'm not a bitchy feminist, I'm a human with a fucking brain. And if that makes me a bitchy feminist, then woof woof motherfuckers.

I don't like labels either, as I hate politico-ideological thinking in any form, but sometimes labels are useful, if only for brevity in conversation.