Holidays and absences

Which one was which?  

Ummm.. I must be dense... You'll have to explain, Eldo.

Eldorion wrote:Are you dense?  One of those is a subjective impression I got from reading the thread, the other is a concrete claim about someone else's beliefs.

Thinking.... thinking... thinking.... Maybe this all about 'a subjective impression'. Am I right? One that prompted you to say something that I jumped to the conclusion might (at least potentially) offend someone when viewed 'objectively'.  

{{{I wonder if I'm slipping into my more usual smartarse mode? I think I might be.... }}}

It's okay, I've already slipped into shithead mode.  

Good Lad.  

You can spot a complex discussion by the way in which several pages after everyone has fallen out we still cant decide who is to blame for it- me, Eldo, or Mrs Figg for being a woman.  

Whoa, so much to briefly skim through and not have time to address.  

I personally felt a lot was sorted after a good talk with the boys yesterday about layers and trenches and viewpoints.
Expolde. Analyze. Conclude. Watch silly Legolas vid.

Avoiding the BBSF is no excuse to have missed Petty VS Figgy and/or Ama, our main battle ground is the Dr. Who thread. We have had several arguments where Petty accuses us of being jealous and mean when we criticize/don’t worship Amy Pond. This is far from the first time we react to being seen as the stereotype ‘all women do is scheme and scowl at other women’, or reacting to that stereotype in general.

What *I* saw was Eldo echoing this, and not realizing it or thinking it didn’t matter. And that I won’t have. Once it is embedded as a truth it is hard to shake and to see beyond. Petty might be a lost cause {{{he does have a few redeeming qualities though }}}, but Eldo is not.*
Tough love.

I am more angry at society (or um… *makes vague broad circle motion in the air with her arms* the world or whatever) than I am at Eldo. Point is that the world is crazy and Eldo is too smart fall in dumb traps like that.



*You are also going to save the world and stop world hunger, but all in good time.

Amarië wrote:Avoiding the BBSF is no excuse to have missed Petty VS Figgy and/or Ama, our main battle ground is the Dr. Who thread.

Er, my point was that I spent a lot more time in the BBSF than I do in the Dr Who thread, which is why I'm not as familiar with your guys' gender debates. However, I do read them sometimes, and when I chime in its often to disagree with Petty.

What *I* saw was Eldo echoing this, and not realizing it or thinking it didn’t matter. And that I won’t have. Once it is embedded as a truth it is hard to shake and to see beyond. Petty might be a lost cause {{{he does have a few redeeming qualities though }}}, but Eldo is not.*
Tough love.

I acknowledged that the implication was clearly present in my post to some people and have already apologized for that. However, you need to accept at some point that I was not saying all the things you ascribed to me. My comments to Figgs were based on things that she specifically said (and Carly has highlighted), not on negative stereotypes about feminists in general. You're free to disagree with me, of course, but not to put words in my mouth.

Let me start by saying that I won't touch feminism discussions with anything when they get too serious, I usually just end up pissing everyone off or getting some undeserved praise, both because I base my subjective opinions on lacking knowledge. What I want to say, is this: There is a general idea that among friends and "educated"/sound people, when discussions and disagreements become heated, it should always be possible to speak frankly with and have it out on each other, and aftwerwards make friends again. The idea, it seems (at any rate in my experience), is that one should be able to speak so honestly and from the heart that it though the words may sound cruel and hard when uttered, they make what you think crystal clear, but for some reason many seem to feel that it is necessary that the words be this cruel and hard. Speaking again from own experience, young though I may be, I will say that the words don't always have to be chrushingly honest to speak your mind.

I once nearly lost a good friend doing just what you guys are doing now, though the beef we had was on a more personal level and so the consequences were more serious too. I told him exactly how I felt at the time, and it was harsh. But while I don't regret doing so, I could have chosen my words differently, and I know that I should have chosen the time and place differently - one to one, just us, not when our common friends were about us (now this is a forum and there will be spectators, this is just an example I use). He didn't talk to me for half a year, and though we now are good friends again, it took us longer than six months to get back to where we were.

But enough of my personal ramblings and nonsense! What I wanted to say with this post was yes, it is healthy to have discussions were we can be honest with each other and have a place where we don't have to shun conflicts or heated debates, but I still believe the wording our honesty had best be subject to a second and a third reading or think-through before we press "send" and wait for hell to break lose. Convey whatever message you want to, but don't patrionise or throw shit on the fan for the heck of it, so to speak. Eldo's two-line comment is blown way out of proportions by more than one person here, and he's been unfairly treated for it, among other things he's been patronised by both Amarie and Orwell. You can hide condescension in sweet-talk, Amarie, but shit sandwiches still taste like shit. And your behaviour the last few posts make Eldo seem fifty and you 19, Orwell. Keep in mind that there is a receiving end when you say what you say, and in this case the receiving end is Eldo, a person that I know will take constructive criticism seriously. So keep it constructive.

Never mind Eldo- he's only getting attacked from one side- how come I'm getting abuse from all sides and Ive barely even been in this debate?!  

Everyone of us has a past, we have ALL experienced things that are "deep" to only "us" as an individual. NONE of us here can know,understand or feel what that other person has felt,known or experienced. We all have "hurts". some can talk about their "hurts" while some cant, whether its cos it hurts TO much because of their own experience or because its a view they hold highly. Stoning someone because they cant see thru your eyes seems to accomplish nothing sometimes. Sometimes tho it can bring forth an understanding other people might not have noticed before, we all learn & we all have to. What can be done to rectify it ? maybe acceptance, a while to think ? & if light of day dawns on you then if you can, apology ? I see no outright winners, there shouldnt be, there could be understanding ? More than one person has been hurt, for whatever reason. We are all different ages, but that hasnt anything to do with it.There are people young that understand while someone older might not. We all have feelings & we all feel the pain of heartbreak, being put down, disrespect,unacknowledged, even ridicule sometimes. the sense of pain can last for ever if a sense of joy doesnt over step it & erase it from our memory. Maybe Im talking crap. Im unsure. If I cannot trust in my own thoughts sometimes, how can anyone else. We go by what we learn. All I can say is, when you love someone, & there is many forms of love ! I love whether that person is male or female. A love for family, a love for a friend.

Damn it, Ringo. I don't like it but I have to admit you are right. Taking a step back, I do sound awfully condescending all though I thought I wasn't. That is no way to behave. And it totally defies the point, when it was (alleged) condescending remarks I was reacting to in the first place.  

I'm sorry Eldo. And thank you Ringo for kicking my ass.
I'll just go dig a hole and hide there for a while 'till my pride heals.

Ah Forumshire!
I honestly dont think there is any real nasty sexism on here (except from the women obviously  ).
There are different viewpoints but I feel it all does come with respect not out of some desire to point score or vilify another poster, and when there are disagreements it usually starts with one side (sorry David!) trying to understand the pov of the other side- and that's no bad thing even if it might be a bit of a rocky road to better understanding, at least we are making the effort!

And now, having said all that, as the last person left standing in this debate I invoke the male right to declare myself therefore the winner.   

*munch* *munch* {{{ Dammit David, we shouldn't have been sitting down through this, we let Petty grab the glory. Ah well, popcorn's nearly gone anyway. }}} *munch* *munch*

Yeah... on second thought I think we should all rally around blaming Petty and throw him in the hole. Nothing brings people together like having a common enemy, and there's a loud cry for bread popcorn and circus which we simply cannot ignore.

I gotta say, Ringo, I hate people sticking up for young people, but I especially hate young people sticking up for young people!

Btw I did no patronizing. I said what I said straight. There was never an expectation Eldo had to agree with what I said. You're the one patronizing him. The irony of that is sweet.  

Amarië wrote:Yeah... on second thought I think we should all rally around blaming Petty and throw him in the hole. Nothing brings people together like having a common enemy, and there's a loud cry for bread popcorn and circus which we simply cannot ignore.

At last, a useful Scotshobbit.

Amarië wrote:Damn it, Ringo. I don't like it but I have to admit you are right. Taking a step back, I do sound awfully condescending all though I thought I wasn't. That is no way to behave. And it totally defies the point, when it was (alleged) condescending remarks I was reacting to in the first place.   

A most pathetic retreat, Amarie. You weren't patronizing.

Ringdrotten wrote:Eldo's two-line comment is blown way out of proportions by more than one person here, and he's been unfairly treated for it, among other things he's been patronised by both Amarie and Orwell.

No, I can't let this pass. You might see it as completely harmless. I see it as being, however unintentional, quite offensive in context. And I say this not altogether comvinced that was the thing that offended Mrs Figg most. It doesn't change my opinion. Allow the receiver to be the victim and dont belittle their right to feel victimized. But I feel no lessening of my respect for Eldo either. I said we all can say things we letter regret. That's young and old. And if I'm wrong, fine. We must agree to disagree, that seems a workable proposition. As for Amarie, she is incredibly tactful. I see that as her strength. She is a sincerely honorable person too. Deriding her 'sweet' talk is way off the mark btw. Also, my opinion is my opinion, I have no expectation anyone must agree with any of mine. So feel free to opinionate.That's what we do here.

Blimey i nip out for some extra buckie (to help in the debate of course) and come back to this.

I dont think it has helped matters that Mrs Figg choose to leave at a point when it was not entirely clear exactly what had offended her. And subsequently blame has been getting splashed around without anyone actually knowing (I seem to have got a fair splashing myself and even I dont know if I deserve it or not!).

This whole thing has become both a bit nebulous in what its about, and conversely, increasingly focused on the individuals taking part rather than more general aspects of the debate, which is unfortunate.

oh for fucks sake!
let me explain a few things, firstly I am not here to shit stir, neither do I want to be a stormcrow bringing dissent among the peaceful forum, but I obviously need to clear some things up before I go.
first off thanks to Amarie and Orwell for defending me, and yes Orwell you do seem to 'get me' pretty accurately cheers  
firstly then, I respect and love women I dont care if they are prozzies strippers or astronauts, adults can do what the heck they like as long as its a free and thought through choice, and not because of coercion or because some pimp tells em to.
I am truly afraid and worried for Young girls, and because it makes me mad I use strong Language like bimbo or slapper not because I think they are dumb but because either social pressure or naivity has left them open to being disrespected and abused. Young minds soak up information around them, and if that information is highly sexualized they will get some messages from the media tv and music videos that to get male attention they must girate their butts like Beyonce does. all girls want to attract boys and thats normal what isnt normal are the extreme role models you see today, what does it say about society when on MTV the heros are slaggy boozers on Geordie and Jersey Shore? when a Kardashian is the woman envied?
I was lucky enough to have an innocent old fashioned childhood, sex was absent thank god, on tv before 9pm it was censored, magazines for girls and women were aspirational ones like Cosmo or girls magazines which were full of horse-riding tips and how to talk to boys, nowadays its Game of Thrones style rudery and girls of 13 in lipgloss and heels, some Young girls heros are Jodie Marsh and Jordan, my heros were Chrissie Hynde and Vivien Westwood, non of my female heros relied on big boobs nor did they strip for lads mags. I am not in any way a prude and I dont think I am judgemental, but sometimes I feel women are doing themselves a great disservice, like we are regressing instead of going healthily forward, the use of sex to sell things and gain fame at a Young age seems mistaken, to sexualize girls before they are ready emotionally seems cruel and confusing for them, I feel protective and I suppose maternal, I want to slap some stars and say dont pander to pressures, dont sell out, think before you girate your arse on videos because girls are watching and Learning the only way for sucess is acting like a bimbo, looking like Rhiannah and getting beaten up by a man who doesnt value you is not the way to go. every day women are stalked abused and killed, society has obviously put little value on our lives, we are devalued and objectified, women have a duty to protect each other and if calling someone a bimbo makes some girl think twice before she wants to become the next Jordan its worth it.

Thanks for clearing up your position Mrs Figg for those of us who hadnot fully understood it form your previous posts.

I agree with almost everything in your above post in terms of its general assessment of the state of play.
The only thing I would take issue with is your argument for calling people things like bimbo- however well intentioned in its aim I am sure you can see how it can give the impression on its own that you are disapproving and looking down on those women.

But alls well as ends in a pub, as my ole Da is wont to say.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:This whole thing has become both a bit nebulous in what its about, and conversely, increasingly focused on the individuals taking part rather than more general aspects of the debate, which is unfortunate.

We do wander here, I did say that.

Hey! I did try to tackle a specific issue, however mistakenly or unmistakenly. I'm flabbergasted that Ringo thought I (or Amarie) was genuinely patronizing at any time. I really would like to hear Eldo's view. I thought on our part we just had a straight out differing of opinion, debated on equal terms. Though, on reflection, he did descend to calling me 'dumb'. So maybe he was patronizing me.  

Mrs Figg! Hurrah! You know, I just knew I was right! And frankly, that's the most important thing here.

Mrs Figg wrote:I am not in any way a prude and I dont think I am judgemental, but sometimes I feel women are doing themselves a great disservice, like we are regressing instead of going healthily forward, the use of sex to sell things and gain fame at a Young age seems mistaken, to sexualize girls before they are ready emotionally seems cruel and confusing for them, I feel protective and I suppose maternal, I want to slap some stars and say dont pander to pressures, dont sell out, think before you girate your arse on videos because girls are watching and Learning the only way for sucess is acting like a bimbo, looking like Rhiannah and getting beaten up by a man who doesnt value you is not the way to go. every day women are stalked abused and killed, society has obviously put little value on our lives, we are devalued and objectified, women have a duty to protect each other and if calling someone a bimbo makes some girl think twice before she wants to become the next Jordan its worth it.

Actually, I pretty much carry the same thoughts every day. I have moved on from Family Violence in the last couple of months, but my year specializing in the field has only confirmed these views in my mind, Mrs Figg. {{{Sorry if I sound patronizing... }}}