Questions for the Lore Masters.

it could be experimental moonshine.

Elthir wrote:
But Horsemaster David you seem to be forgetting that you only lost points due to avoiding the question 'coupled with' asking for points or buttons... and I even explained it was your asking for points that was the only reason you received negative points.

And no buttons.

A simple Question for the Loremasters:
Is the interrogative statement, "Did I solve it? Do I get points? How about a button?" not simply three Questions for the Loremasters, and therefore entirely on topic and avoidancery-free? Of course it's now a moot point as the questions have all been answered.
{{though not without the usual sophistry }}

I hope you don't imagine that the fines recently imposed on you were in anyway retaliatory. They resulted from violations of a completely different statute related to horse lore.

In the unlikely event that you were considering contesting these fines however, I should mention that there are severe fines for contesting fines which could leave you buttonless for a very long time. Please consider this a friendly warning from a colleague.

So now that we're all even, what was the question again?

David H wrote: A simple Question for the Loremasters: Is the interrogative statement, "Did I solve it? Do I get points? How about a button?" not simply three Questions for the Loremasters, and therefore entirely on topic and avoidancery-free?

Ah but David let's remember the thread history. After these 3 questions I responded:

OK but do you [David] think the description in question is meant to be read in a 'Riddles in the Dark' kind of way (not that you said you did of course)?

In other words, how do you interpret this one? What colours are you imagining? And heavens one can't give away buttons at the drop of a hat... I'm not wearing a hat.

So no negative points were awarded. No avoidinancery (please note the correct spelling) noted as yet. And you responded with:

Well, I have a serious answer if you're looking for one, but it will cost you at least 10 points or 4 buttons

And then again...

...half in advance!

And you could have included this answer in any of your posts that followed.

So now that we're all even, what was the question again?

I quoted it here to jog your memory

Again, you don't have to answer of course, in any case.

Since our elected loremaster is ignoring the "who the heck is Tom Bombadil" thread, I thought I'd restate it here. I will of course weight the argument heavily in my favor.

It comes down to two camps.

The 'Nature Spirit' camp goes with Tolkien's statements in letters that Tom represents the spirit of the English Countryside, and is deliberately left as an enigma with no need to fit into the rest of the cosmology.

The 'Maia' camp starts with Gene Hargrove's assertion that it was not in Tolkien's nature to leave any anomalies in his universe, so even if Tom is intended to represent the English Countryside to the gentle readers, he must still fit into the cosmology. The most likely candidate would be a somewhat rogue Maia.

Oh Duly Elected if somewhat erratically button scoring Loremaster: which camp would your esteemed self fall into?

I go with intentional enigma and Tolkien himself (in letters) on the Bombadil question.

And my apologies for not reading that thread.

its a jolly good job you dont read the Creative Corner threads. It may result in me being buttonless for the foreseeable future. and then some.


*gulp*

I left out some subtleties. Hargrove distinguishes between an anomaly (does not fit into the world) and an enigma (does fit in but not explained). Tolkien did use the word Enigma. Hargrove argued that though Tom may have started out as an anomaly, Tolkien was not the type to leave it like that, and therefore would have tried to explain Tom to himself (but not the readers), thereby transferring it from anomaly to enigma.

OK on the pony colour question: Would you say I was correct to assume that this was a small herd of horses running free on a commons or large pasture? (Apologies if you gave this context before. I must have fainted before all the facts were in. )

If so, it would be reasonable to assume a small, thoroughly mixed gene pool. Typically a farmer or rancher would geld all the males but one to increase productivity and decrease random acts of violence. {{{Trying to resist a BIG BAD SERIOUS tangent...}}}

Also note the absence of black.

If this is the case, then I think what's implied is a herd whose primary base colour is brown, and who in addition has a genetic predisposition to turn grey. That would account for all the colours mentioned and would provide almost infinite possible variations within that pallet.

Now a Question for the Loremaster: What's a guy gotta do to get a button around here?

Thanks David H (H for Horsemaster)!

David H wrote: What's a guy gotta do to get a button around here?

Maybe buy a weskit. They usually come with buttons anyway.

So 'all the colours mentioned', meaning (I take it) white, brown and... grey

Hey Elthir, did you see the gold star Amarie gave me over at the Viking Bar?
Look at this!


That's Elven generosity for you! Kind of puts your button policy in perspective, doesn't it?

Remember that grey in horses isn't a colour in itself. It needs a base colour to turn grey from.

The interesting thing to me is that among ponies, JRRT has painted an image of a herd or herds of ponies that have a strong brown base colour and a tendency to grey. There has so far been no mention of the base colour black.

But of the horses mentioned (as opposed to ponies) with one ancient exception the only base colour mentioned is black. That paints a completely different picture for horses, whether that was Tolkien's intent or not. Among other things it would imply that the horses and ponies of ME rarely if ever interbreed.

Of course absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so it's entirely possible that Tolkien imagined brown as well as black as base colours in the horse herds, and simply forgot to mention any of the brown colours, just as some novelists only have tall and short characters, but nobody of average height, but I like to think that he was better than that.

In either case, two things are very clear to me: Tolkien really likes horses, followed closely by birds, and he hates spiders. A few dogs, a couple sheep for eating, and the rest of the natural creatures are hardly worth mentioning in the primary texts.

It's also clear to me that he particularly liked grey horses. They're simply everywhere, which is more than a little unusual.

I can't help but think that among the noble horses he was influence by all the legends of the Royal Scots Greys which he served on the same field with.

As for the ponies, I'd be curious how common grey was among common ponies in pre-automobile Britain. He may have a particular fondness that's showing through, or he may be just describing what he saw in his youth.

He could have seen grey Shire horses. Andalusian grey

Remember that grey in horses isn't a colour in itself. It needs a base colour to turn grey from.

Maybe I've been asking the wrong question. When I meet a grey horse in the pages of a book, am I not supposed to imagine it, in my mind's eye, as a specific colour (within a given range of course)?

Elthir wrote:When I meet a grey horse in the pages of a book, am I not supposed to imagine it, in my mind's eye, as a specific colour (within a given range of course)?

Ah, that slippery slope again. It begs the question,"Supposed by whom?" By me? By Tolkien?

As far as I'm concerned you're welcome to imagine anything that gives you pleasure, just so long as you don't put the weight of your authority as Loremaster behind it. As for Tolkien I can't say, but it would seem reasonable to assume that he would have expected the reader to have a mental image of a colour, though maybe not the same colour that he imagined.

The thing to understand about grey horses is that the "given range" is defined by the genetic base colour, so it will be a very different range on a black horse than on a chestnut or a palomino. It's very much like with humans. If an author describes an old Masai warrior in Africa as having grey hair, you would reasonably imagine a different colour than if he describes an old viking chieftain from northern Fjordlandia with the same words, especially if he has described the viking community as having hair in shades of blonde and red. Just like the word "faded" may evoke an image, it's going to depend on what colour you imagine it fading from. It all depends on the imagined base colour. Does that make sense?

As for Tolkien I can't say, but it would seem reasonable to assume that he would have expected the reader to have a mental image of a colour, though maybe not the same colour that he imagined.

Right, a colour. And what colour do you imagine when you encounter a grey horse in literature? Generally speaking of course... as obviously there are various greys that merit the word 'grey' compared to other word choices.

It's very much like with humans. If an author describes an old Masai warrior in Africa as having grey hair, you would reasonably imagine a different colour than if he describes an old viking chieftain from northern Fjordlandia with the same words, especially if he has described the viking community as having hair in shades of blonde and red.

So something we could call grey then, as a colour, again generally speaking. No?

You want to know what I imagine? OK, but you realize this is about as personal as asking me to describe my first girlfriend.

If it's a war horse, I instantly think of this picture of the Royal Scots Greys. I've loved this painting since I was a little kid. The artist knew horses! Notice the variety including dappling that the artist has taken pains to include.




If it's a grey pony, I imagine something like this, because I used to know a pony like this. Notice the brown tones.



If it's a saddle horse I picture something like this, because that's what Blue Lady, the horse in the pasture across from our house when I was a kid, looked like.



Your imagination may vary.

omg. i can't believe you guys are starting the "grey-colour" thing again...

I think I could cuddle up with that gray pony and be happy for good, girlfriends be damned.

Norc wrote:omg. i can't believe you guys are starting the "grey-colour" thing again...

I don't know about David but it's in my contract.

I dont know about 'again'- did it ever stop?!

did my gal b lip sync ??

Yes.

no wonder she hasn't been returning my calls. Shes embbarased

apparantly it never stopped

no matter the effort i put in it never seems good enough, but that hasn't stopped me