Re: Questions for the Lore Masters.

by Elthir Tue Jul 23, 2024 4:27 pm

Appendix B: "About this time a shadow falls on Greenwood, and men begin to call it Mirkwood."

And Appendix F tells us that the Westron names "were as a rule" translations of older names -- which includes Elvish names in the apparent examples of this, Tolkien including the detail that some translations differed in meaning, such as Mirkwood for Taur e-Ndaedelos "Forest of the Great Fear."

The name Taur-nu-Fuin for Mirkwood hails from note 14 to The Disaster Of The Gladden Fields in Unfinished Tales. Christopher Tolkien comments: "The application of the same name, Taur-nu-Fuin, to both Mirkwood and Dorthonion is notable, in the light of the close relation of my father's pictures of them."

So, Tolkien redrew a picture of "Dorthonion" for publication in The Hobbit, and the picture used for the redrawing was the one in which Beleg finds Gwindor -- cough, which later got titled "Fangorn Forest" by Tolkien -- which was even used for a cover to The Two Towers at one point, with the small figures of Beleg and Gwindor still in it!

Anyway, no surprise, I'm going with the name as published by Tolkien himself in Appendix F.

And taking a nap.

by halfwise Tue Jul 23, 2024 4:47 pm

OMG OMG a voice from the past! So great to have you stop by, Elthir! You even get a :carrot:

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:37 pm

{{ Elthir! cheers

I thought I saw the ravens circling the Tower of Lore again.
So if I am reading you right, we should take the elvish name to translate as, 'Forest of the Great Fear' and that this was then translated by men into Common as Mirkwood?

So the ancestors of the Rohirrim would likely be among the men who named it, or the Men of Dale, who had traded with the elves of Mirkwood (I'm not sure how much contact, if any, there was between the elves of Mirkwood and the ancestors of the Rohirrim when it was still the Greenwood). And then there are whoever the men are who still lived on the southern edges of Mirkwood long after Rohan was established, the ones whose homes Gollum crept into to steal their babies to eat. Are they who are left of those that didn't go south, or are they an entirely separate group of men? And were they always there or did they move in after to fill space vacated by the departing soon to be Rohirrim?}}

by halfwise Fri Jul 26, 2024 1:40 pm

We had discussed this ring aging things in the tolkien videos thread. Here is made the point that Bilbo hadn't actually aged a great deal in the 17 years since he gave up the ring, but aged very significantly in the few months after it had been destroyed.

by Elthir Mon Jul 29, 2024 8:26 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote: (. . .) And then there are whoever the men are who still lived on the southern edges of Mirkwood long after Rohan was established, the ones whose homes Gollum crept into to steal their babies to eat. Are they who are left of those that didn't go south, or are they an entirely separate group of men?

It was the Woodmen who spoke of "a ghost who drank blood" and so on (cradles). Gollum left the mountains in TA 2944, but didn’t turn toward Mordor until 2951 -- after he’d gone East, and come back West, through Mirkwood.

The Eotheod’s lands were ultimately quite north in the Anduin Vales: "between the furthest ranges of the Misty Mountains and the Northernmost part of Mirkwood." -- though as you know, they had actually moved North [TA 1977] from lands between the Carrock and the Gladden "and they were in origin close akin to the Beornings and the Men of the West-eaves of the forest."

And were they always there or did they move in after to fill space vacated by the departing soon to be Rohirrim

With respect to the beginning of the Third Age (though one could go further back in time of course), Tolkien described (History of Galadriel And Celeborn, Appendix B, The Sindarin Princes of The Silvan Elves): "The Free Men of the North (so called by the Elves because they were not under the rule of Dúnedain, and had not for the most part been subjected by Sauron or his servants) were spreading southwards: mostly east of the Greenwood, though some were establishing themselves in the eaves of the forest and the grass-lands of the Vales of Anduin."

And by TA 2 we have mention of "certain woodsman": "There were rescuers who came on the scene too late, but in time to disturb the Orks and prevent their mutilation of the bodies: for there were certain woodsman who got news to Thranduil by runners, and also themselves gathered a force to ambush the Orks (. . .)" The Disaster of the Gladden Fields, unfinished Tales

Hmm.

In Appendix F we find: "Of this kind were the peoples of the upper vales of Anduin: the Beornings, and the Woodmen of Western Mirkwood" -- which agrees well enough with the "Woodmen" sections of Tolkien's map of Wilderland -- but this is fairly general information, obviously.

In any case, when the Eotheod moved north (again, TA 1977), it's said that there were "many men in the middle-vales of Anduin in those days, and moreover the shadow of Dol Guldur was lengthening." And the "Rohirrim" don't settle in Calenardhon until much later [TA 2510].

I'm not saying you aren't aware of anything here, Lord Petty, I'm just trying to get stuff down in a post, for comparison and consideration. And what can we make of this much? And is there more text to consider here?

I can't recall at the moment. . . but just typing this out has got me thinking of a nap.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Jul 29, 2024 9:47 pm

{{ Cheers Elthir. If I were certain of my knowledge, usually dragged reluctantly from the drunken recesses of half remembered readings in decades past, I would not trouble, nor dare to knock upon and disturb the door of the Tower of Lore. Lore Masters get grumpy when woken from their naps and those ravens have a good aim when roused, and it's a devil to get out of tartan! Mad

I had for some reason placed the early Rohirrim in the Gladden Fields region much longer than they were present (forgetting it seems they moved northward first before going southward). Does raise a question however in my mind. I think the reason I had mentally placed them there is that they had awareness for, and enough contact with hobbits to have given them a name in their own tongue that related to the hobbits nature as hole dwellers. So I had placed them in the same region as Smeagols people lived.
But now I wonder, if the Rohirrim went north from that region well before Smeagol at least lived around Gladden Fields, were there hobbits further north that the early Rohirrim encountered? Where did they get their early knowledge of hobbits from? Is there a point where they overlap in cohabitation of land?

And the Woodmen are basically just the Middle Men then? Your average standard human that were all over Middle Earth? The fact they sent runners to Thranduil does imply contact at least with the elves of the region, so perhaps the translation from elvish to common or Mirkwood was coined by these Woodsmen as Dol Guldur darkened the forest around it near them.

As to Lord Petty, I'm offended! Lord of the Gutter maybe, Lord of Buckie desirably as a life aim, but I bow or kneel to no man, nor expect any other do so to me. It is not in the mongrel nature of the Scotshobbit to do so. I am low indeed and as about as far from Lordy as Eru was pleased to make me, thank you kindly! }}

by Elthir Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:59 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote: As to Lord Petty, I'm offended! Lord of the Gutter maybe, Lord of Buckie desirably as a life aim, but I bow or kneel to no man, nor expect any other do so to me. It is not in the mongrel nature of the Scotshobbit to do so. I am low indeed and as about as far from Lordy as Eru was pleased to make me, thank you kindly!

Hmm. I've referred to you in this way before, but perhaps you didn't notice. I apologize for all examples in any case; and to help me remember my foolishness here, I'll skip my cabbage pie tonight. Lesson learned!

Anywhy, perhaps this selection from The Tale of Years, supplemented by info from Cirion and Eorl (Unfinished Tales), is what you're looking for.

TA 1356: About this time the Stoors leave the Angle, and some return to Wilderland.

TA 1856: The fall of Narmacil II – after this, those folk who would become the Eotheod, gathered by Marhwini and joined by fugitives who came through the forest, settled in the Vales of Anduin.

TA 1977: Frumgar leads the Eotheod into the North.

TA 2463: Deagol the Stoor finds the One.

And speaking of Hole-dwellers, one of my favorite details from The Nature of Middle-Earth is found in The Founding Of Nargothrond:

"(. . .) Its chief interest comes from its use in the "title" or by-name of King Finrod Felagund (said traditionally to have meant "den-dweller", or specifically "brock, badger").

JRRT, 1969

That's just awesome!

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:14 pm

I've referred to you in this way before, but perhaps you didn't notice.- Elthir

{{ Me not noticing is probably no excuse! Mad

Or it doesn't matter and is fine. Nod

One of those. Probably. drunken

While you're awake, it's your round. pub

So just to be clear, for my sake; Stoors had gone west over the mountains before the Rohirrim arrived in Anduin and at the forest edge, but the Stoors, or some of them, came back east and settled in the Gladden Region, the Rohirrim then turn up a few hundred years later, hang about for about 140 years and then piss off north.
Deagol finds the ring about 500 years later? Yes?

So the only definite time we know the Rohirrim and hobbits lived close to each other was that 150ish years, and it would have been exclusively the Stoor branch? }}.

by Elthir Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:09 pm

Yep. I think we can say that the remigrant Stoors and the Eotheod overlap, for a time, in the Anduin Vale.

I considered posting this shorter response earlier; but then I didn't.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 31, 2024 6:58 pm

{{ In the spirit of Tolkien's love of linguists, and mine of buckie Mad

Stoor is always an amusing word to me as a Scot, as it has a lot of meanings.
You could for example write the following short story.

The Stoors were walking up the hill in a group, huddled together against the wind which whipped a gritty stoor up into the faces of the huddled Stoors. The day only got worse, as cresting the hill they came upon a right good stoor, the youngest Stoors wanted to join in, but before the Stoors could get into the stoor two sherrifs broke it up, kicking up the road as they did so, so the Stoors were once again engulfed in the stoor of it. Arriving home to their small hole did not lift spirits, they had forgotten to close the round front door, and taken by the wind it had blown wide open and even inside the stoor to the Stoors seemed just as bad as the stoor outside. Old Gaffer Stoor looked on with a stoor expression.

You see Stoor can be a proper name of course, stoor is also dust, particularly that whipped up by wind, a stoor can also be a fight, alluding to the sort of multiple participant scuffley street fight type of thing. And lastly you can have a stoor expression on your face, which unsurprisingly is an alternative to looking crabbit, but with more of a gloomy implication to it. Just thought I'd drunkenly ramble about stoors, dont mind me. drunken

}}

by Elthir Thu Aug 01, 2024 4:45 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote: (. . .) Just thought I'd drunkenly ramble about stoors, dont mind me.

Hey I love that kind of stuff. Thanks Petty!

by azriel Thu Aug 01, 2024 10:16 pm

And stoor can be an attitude, a defiance, a resolution, a stubbornness, no intention of giving in,
( much like the fights outside the clubs along the seafront on a saturday night at 2am with guys pissed paralytic on whatever lighter fuel they can guzzle )

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Aug 07, 2024 8:00 am

{{ After watching several lengthy youtube videos on this topic I thought I'd publish my very first venture into Lore Master territory here, where it can come under the scrutiny of a Master Lore Master such as Elthir, yup, I am that confident and/or drunk. drunken

It is entitled-

'The Complete and Utter Definitive Absolutely Complete Guide to Who Tom Bombadil Really Is.'

Spoiler:

Any opinions? }}

by halfwise Wed Aug 07, 2024 4:04 pm

I've read your reasoned dissertation, reflected upon it, and come to the conclusion that you really should quote your sources. Or appellations.

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Aug 07, 2024 4:08 pm

{{ Source- Tolkien and reaching the bottom of my barrel on the subject, in all meanings of that Mad

Appellations- buckie drunken

}}

by azriel Wed Aug 07, 2024 9:38 pm

by halfwise Fri Aug 16, 2024 5:32 pm

I thought this was an interesting question and answer on Quora. I've included my response.

Do you agree with George R.R. Martin that it was a mistake for Tolkien to bring Gandalf back as Gandalf the White because Gandalf's sacrifice to save the Fellowship was the most poignant moment and momentous plot development in The Lord of the Rings?

(response by Hugh Caley)
No, I don’t agree. As a matter of fact, until Gandalf returns from the dead, the reader doesn’t really understand the stakes of the War of the Ring.

If you read The Hobbit, Tolkien is very cagey about Gandalf’s powers; mostly, he uses a sword and does tricky things, like make fireworks and keep trolls arguing until the Sun comes up. You are never really certain that he actually has magical powers; even the one time he sets the trees on fire to fight the wargs and orcs, you aren’t really certain that he’s a powerful being. Maybe he’s just a clever fellow. Maybe he’s really a pretend magician.

In the first few chapters of “The Lord of the Rings”, Tolkien tries to make it clear, through descriptive storytelling, that he’s more, such as when Frodo thinks Gandalf looks “lordly” at dinner in Imladris.

But the fact is, until we meet the Balrog, we really have no idea what Gandalf is, or what Sauron is. We’ve heard some things, but we haven’t SEEN anything. That fight, and Gandalf’s “death”, reveals what type of beings these are.

And then, Gandalf is resurrected! He comes back from the “dead”! And we realize, possibly for the first time, that there actually are two sides in the struggle in “heaven”, that the elves DID actually meet the angels of Arda, that there IS a Valar (“The Lords of the West”), and an Elbereth, and an Erú. We now know that there are beings of near-infinite power in Arda, and we FINALLY have some kind of glimpse into what Sauron and his Ring actually are.

And to me, it is Gandalf’s resurrection that makes that understanding possible. Even his and the Balrog’s “death” didn’t make that completely clear, but Gandalf’s resurrection, that is another thing entirely.

(my response)
GRRM also uses resurrection, but he uses it sparingly and for the same reasons given for Gandalf’s resurrection: to demonstrate that there really are powers at work we don’t find in our everyday world, and that yes, this really is fantasy we are reading.

by azriel Sat Aug 17, 2024 2:57 pm

For me you dont need to question his strength, you just need to know hes there. He doesnt need to explain himself, as long as you believe in him. He gives hope, he has a quiet secret power that oozes out and you know hes on the side of good, Hes seen all this before, hes an aged tactician, he knows how it will go to some degree, you can rely on his wisdom, enough said.

by halfwise Sun Aug 18, 2024 8:07 pm

Does anyone buy this theory? Sounds logical but I'm unconvinced.

by Pettytyrant101 Mon Aug 19, 2024 9:44 am

{{ As an 'in world' theory, it's quite nice. In reality, Tolkien just did not know where he was going with it when he started and it had a tone somewhat closer to that of the Hobbit, which given he had been asked to provide a sequel to it is understandable.
But I can see why talking Foxes and hobbits sending Nazgul the right abouts, might seem more in Bilbo's storytelling style than Frodo's. }}