Questions for the Lore Masters.

David H wrote:My favorite thread!

I'm bumping Elthir's list because it's so impressive and curious. Of all the many references he has found so far, all are Black/Grey/White except for one lone Chestnut [highlighted]. It's hard to imagine what Tolkien was thinking....

Wasn't Bill more of a mix? actually just checked and don't see anything in the initial description, but can't imagine him as white, grey or black.

I checked some Bill references... I think... I might have missed one or several though.

Was Bill a horse or a pony?

pony.

So does that exclude his colour as relivent from a discussion on horse colours or not?

hmmmm probably.

...not.

The Lore Master List shows textual references to 2 white ponies, 2 grey ponies (one shaggy) and one pony called "white socks" (which suggests a darker base colour, possibly grey or black.)

Unless somebody can provide textual support for another colour of pony, it's fair to assume Bill was one of these.

to all this horse stuff, I say only this:

I've now finished The Hobbit (hadn't read it completely through in a while) and have added two references to my earlier list (also giving The Hobbit its own 'section'), although one is simply the mention of thirty white horses from a riddle, so not actual horses of course. The second is the addition of four white ponies in Beorn's home.

The beast given to Gandalf by Beorn is not described as to its colour: thus Gandalf first rides the white 'Rohald', gets a white pony from Elrond for the path up the Misty Mountains, and later gets a different animal from Beorn.

So if Gandalf doesnt ride three distinct horses then thats something else I can nitpick PJ for. Good work Elthir!

The question was raised on another thread if Mrs Figg had weighed in on the horse colour debate. I'll let her speak for herself:

Mrs Figg wrote:Exactly my thoughts Dave, thanks for the clarification, truly a LoreMaster par excellence.

{{{Ah shucks, Mrs Figg! You're making me blush again.... }}}

Father Pat! Makes me both happy and a bit sad...

I have also tripped over a note which I think allows me to better track (somewhat) Gandalf's horses from visiting Bilbo in The Hobbit to Shadowfax.

I will post my findings here, considering, if and when I find the time. This gives you (anyone still reading) time to form special groups whose sole purpose is to hinder such a post. It's not about greyness in the main, if you need to file legal documents and would like the wording to be accurate with respect to grievances.

I am also reading some tales written by William Morris -- because I always wanted to -- and I can't help but notice his horse references (well, and other things) and in my opinion, Morris was a notable literary inspiration for Tolkien. I could post some of these things too, but keep in mind (again for possible legal purposes) that the works of Morris might now be in the public domain.

Post away Elthir- not enough discussion on horse colouring around here if you ask me.

Horses!

(horses love carrots)

But thanks to you I now know that not even carrots come in set colors!

Do we need multiple versions of the emoticon now?

Gandalf and his partial horse history

Third Age 2941: Gandalf visits Bilbo in the Shire. We know that Gandalf rides a white horse (Roast Mutton) at the start of the journey, and this horse is later noted (the 1960 Hobbit) as being named Rohald and 'belonged to Rivendell, & had been lent by Elrond to Gandalf' (Arrival in Rivendell, New Chapter Three, notes, The History of The Hobbit).

Is Rohald an 'Elvish horse'? And if so, what does that mean exactly? Possibly that's a discussion for a later time!

But The Hobbit notes that after Rivendell, Elrond then lent Gandalf a 'jolly sturdy little white fellow' of a pony, since his horse was not suitable for the mountain paths. But these are captured of course. Later Beorn provides horses, but they must be returned, and Gandalf says he is not 'sending' his horse back, but riding it back, implying, at least, that he will return this horse. If memory serves there is no mention of any steed when Gandalf first appears later in the tale.

We are then told Bilbo and Gandalf 'rode' behind the Elvenking, while beside them 'strode Beorn', so I assume someone had given them steeds, seemingly ponies, as (The Last Stage) it is noted 'their ponies were tired, especially the one that carried the baggage'. And ponies again after Rivendell, as: 'So they put the gold in bags and slung them on their ponies...'

Jumping ahead to Third Age 3001 we have Bilbo's farewell feast, and Gandalf visits Frodo in year 3004, and does so at intervals during the next four years.

Tolkien noted (Unfinished Tales) that Gandalf left Thranduil in Mirkwood on 29 March, but after the Carrock he had a horse, and got a fresh horse at Rivendell, and reached Hobbiton on 12 April 3018 [by the way, the dating here is somewhat confused when description from The Hunt for the Ring is considered and compared to Appendix B, but in a carbon copy of the latest typescript of Appendix B, Tolkien tinkered with things, noting that Gandalf 'had a horse for part of the time' Hammond And Scull Appendix B, The Lord of the Rings, A Reader's Companion).

Incidentally I became confused here for a while about the dating, so thanks to Hammond and Scull for revealing that I was not alone (I kept thinking I was missing something)!

Gandalf notes (The Council of Elrond) that 'At the end of June I was in the Shire...' and he meets Radagast (who has a horse) on Mid-years Day. So Gandalf was horsed here and rode out of the Shire to be soon enough imprisoned in Orthanc in July 3018.

Gandalf overtakes and tames Shadowfax in September.

Some arguable literary inspirations, and more 'things horse'

Not that the following proves anything, but I thought it would be interesting to look at a selected few of Tolkien's literary inspirations here, coupled with the fact that I'm reading some works by William Morris in general, in any case, and enjoying them. JRRT himself refers to The Death of Arthur (I assume Malory), and the Sigurd tale, along with William Morris; and Sir Orfeo is about as sure as Beowulf I think

Malory I thought there would be heaps of horses here! and there are, but possibly (as I was only skimming) not so much about colour as I would have guessed. And since the unabridged version is long, and I was only skimming as I say, I gave up after a while.

Quitter! But I did find a bay courser before collapsing from lack of sleep.

Sir Orfeo I haven't read this work in full yet, but this might be interesting with respect to white horses in an 'Elvish' context, especially with respect to number. Tolkien's translation:

'... then came their king himself with speed;
a hundred knights with him and more,
and damsels, too, were many a score,
all riding there on snow-white steeds,
as white as milk were all their weeds;
I saw not ever anywhere
a folk so peerless and so fair.'

Sigurd, William Morris style [with help from Eirikr Magnusson]

Prose: Grani is a famed horse of the tale! As far as I know, his name actually means 'Grey' or 'Grey one' since it's a horse.

'They did so, and drave the horses down into the deeps of the river, and all swam back to land but one horse; and that horse Sigurd chose for himself; grey he was of hue, and young of years, great of growth, and fair to look on, nor had any man yet crossed his back.'

Poetic (William Morris alone): I haven't come close to reading the full poetic version yet. It's longer than I expected. Anyway, in the poetic version Grani is called Greyfell and is 'cloud-grey' of hue, and at one point is seemingly contrasted with the white horses of the water (possibly the foam of churning water), noting that Odin also wears a 'cloud-grey' gown.

William Morris, Book II Regin

'But one of all swam over, and they saw his mane of grey
Toss over the flowery meadows, a bright thing far away;
Wide then he wheeled about them, then took the stream again
And with the waves' white horses mingled his cloudy mane.'
(...)

'The tireless horse of Odin: cloud-grey he was of hue,
And it seemed as Sigurd backed him that Sigmund's son he knew,'

For interest maybe (and why not):

Tolkien, The Lay of the Volsungs (V, Regin, 23)

'But grey Grani
gladly swam there:
Sigurd chose him,
swift and flawless.'

William Morris, Fantasy Novels The Wood Beyond the World

There was not much about horses here, and I don't remember any references as to colouration. But I read it, so I'm mentioning it anyway. Ahem.

William Morris, The Well At The World's End

'dapple-grey horse' called Falcon, chapter 3 [the following numbers are chapter numbers]
'great black horse' 4
'on a white horse' (...) 'also on a white horse' 8
'dapple-grey stallion' 13
'a strong horse, red roan of hue' 16
'a good grey horse' 16
'a white horse' called Silverfax 22
'a black horse that was of the Black Knight, and a bay of the Knight of the Sun...' 23

'or to back the white palfrey and ride' Book 2 chapter 2
'riding a white horse' 2:4


I'll stop there, partly because I'm still reading this book. And unless a re-read of The Lord of the Rings in full reveals a number of instances that I've missed, it looks like already we have a more varied description of horse colouration from William Morris in this tale, also noting that he employs both white and grey (along with dapple-grey) in the same story.

And white Silverfax

As indepth and dilligent as always Elthir- good digging!

'he meets Radagast (who has a horse)'- Elthir

Surely some error here- where's his bunny-sled?

And would you call that sled grey or grey-gold?

Orwell wrote:And would you call that sled grey or grey-gold?

Well it turned my hares grey to hear of this rabbitry, in any case

And thanks Petty.

Hey! Elthir... was that a... nah couldn't have been.. no... it was! You made a colour joke!

Fancy you making light (mid-light?) of such a serious subject...

A bit like a Trekky saying the uniforms of the Starship Enterprise crew were a bit Gay!* Illuminating! And just when you think you might at last be getting a handle on someone..


(Alright! Alright! I might be pushing it a bit far suggesting Trekkies have a sense humour --- and, yet, I still think my point was well made! )

Have I mentioned yet that illustrator Pauline Paynes depicted a brown coloured Bill the pony? and image that Tolkien saw before it was published (JRRT actually helped with the map section) -- although in general he did not like the picture of the Nine Walkers in which Bill appeared.

Tolkien even commented about some of these depictions (not all of his comments have been published so far), but it's a bit hard for me to believe that he would necessarily make a negative comment regarding Bill's colour (if wrong), if in fact he never described it in the books.


I mention this now because it really tells us nothing of Bill's colour. And if I mentioned this before then it's twice as unhelpful.

I knew Shadowfax was white.

And I knew better than to contradict you.