Questions for the Lore Masters.

Orwell wrote:Silver or grey - David does have a thing about it, true!

I admit it, I'm a purist to that extent. Others can go prancing about on pastel ponies, wearing gaudy footwear if they like.

I'm happy to just stick with the author's descriptions as written.

"I'm happy to just stick with the author's descriptions as written."-David

I don't suppose you could have that stenciled on the side of a giant 10 ton weight and droopped on PJ's head could you?

A grey lead weight, Petty..... or one of ruby coloured stone? I guess it's mass and weight that really matter.

David H wrote:I agree the author has a good name, and therefore what is said is almost certainly true. Yet we seem to have a paradox, for I think you'll agree that the website (...) has a very authoritative name as well, yet they assert that:

Grey occurs in almost every breed, those that it does not occur in are those that have been selectively bred to a narrow or specific color range, such as the Friesian, Cleveland Bay, Suffolk Punch and Haflinger. In other breeds such as the Andalusian, Grey is very common. In some breeds Grey occurs, but is very rare, with only a few individuals existing in the world, such as the Morgan.

What are we to make of all this?

That certain modern Rohirrim cannot agree? Or can they? Is anything on this page necessarily in disagreement with the Sayings of Sharrasi? who seems to generally agree with this page from the start...

Ista Sharrasi wrote: A horse who is considered "grey" Is any horse that starts "greying out" at about one or two years of age. Over their lifetime they get whiter and whiter, but still have dark-colored skin - thus not to be confused with pink-skinned white horses.

... but perhaps the Sharrasi meant to speak to rarity only with (this part)...

Sharrasi continued: A true "grey" horse is usually a dapple grey - a horse that remains grey and does not lighten past a certain point. Very few breeds have horses like this,...'

So a horse that remains grey in colour and does not lighten past a certain point is rarer -- which I'm not sure the linked, and less interestingly named (in my opinion) website really speaks to -- unless by not speaking to it the suggestion is that the Great Sharrasi is wrong! Can it be so?

Sharrasi ventured to say: '... so having horses referred to as "grey" means they are either young to middle-aged, or of a specific breed.'

I think the Sharrasi is here speaking about Tolkien's literary works, and as I read these shining words, we appear to have both the colour grey and something that can be gleaned from it in the world of horses -- that is, the 'grey' horse is also grey enough in colour, for two reasons. If this is false then so be it, but does this website really address all the words of the Shining Sharrasi?

David H wrote: The point that arose out of this discussion that still fascinates me is that all the horses so far mentioned in Tolkien cannon are either black, white, or gray. That's startling, and I still am not sure what to make of it.

Hmm, I have an idea

Eldorion wrote: Off-topic, but are you by any chance a member of that site, Elthir? I recognize the username (and googled the paragraph you quoted) and its from a site that I used to spend a lot of time on.

Hmm, if there is an Elthir there it isn't me.

A horse who is considered "grey" Is any horse that starts "greying out" at about one or two years of age. Over their lifetime they get whiter and whiter, but still have dark-colored skin - thus not to be confused with pink-skinned white horses. A true "grey" horse is usually a dapple grey - a horse that remains grey and does not lighten past a certain point. Very few breeds have horses like this, so having horses referred to as "grey" means they are either young to middle-aged, or of a specific breed.

Ista Sharrasi

As I read this, the first two sentences are in complete agreement with the article (and with me, though that's irrelevant to the discussion). The second two sentences are only need a little clarification.

The confusion arises from the lack of clear distinction among the 3 apparently distinct classes 'considered "grey"', 'true "grey"', and 'referred to as "grey"'

I would have thought that a horse considered "grey" could reasonably be referred to as "grey", wouldn't you?

And if it was truly "grey", wouldn't many people consider it "grey"?

There are several ways of defining terms that would resolve this to complete agreement, but I don't want to put words into Ista Sharrasi's mouth.

I would have thought that a horse considered "grey" could reasonably be referred to as "grey", wouldn't you? And if it was truly "grey", wouldn't many people consider it "grey"?

Ah... yes? LOL!

But I'll note the difference (that I see) between your interpretation of The Fall of Gondolin description and what I think is implied by the High Sharrasi. Your interpretation:

What the Gondolin quote suggests to me is noble, wise men on noble, wise steeds.

Ok but no colour mentioned. And you added: 'HT reinforces this when you factor in that the greying comes with age and experience. The wisdom of older horses is understood. By contrast, young horses have a lot of energy but spook easily and need a lot of correction. Not a good mount for a leader, symbolically or practically.'

Is not the implication that you think all these horses 'white and grey' look white to the mind's eye (plus I wondered how do we know any of the truly 'white' horses are necessarily older)? But the Shining One writes: '... so having horses referred to as "grey" means they are either young to middle-aged, or of a specific breed.'

In other words, as I interpret this: when reading the same passage from Tolkien the mind's eye can envision horses both white and grey... with respect to two distinct enough colours (various shades no doubt)... instead of white and a white that results from a greying process.

And Ista Sharrasi's interpretation seems to me, so far anyway, to not be discordant with HT in any case -- again if High One speaks truly enough, or if I read the implication of these sayings aright. That's why this commentary caught my eye anyway, as it caught my mind's eye too.

And in any case both of you appear to be esteemed members of the modern Rohirrim, so I wondered what you might make of this.

would a grey horse still be grey if you brushed it the wrong way?

Elthir wrote:

Your interpretation:

What the Gondolin quote suggests to me is noble, wise men on noble, wise steeds.

Ok but no colour mentioned. And you added: 'HT reinforces this when you factor in that the greying comes with age and experience. The wisdom of older horses is understood. By contrast, young horses have a lot of energy but spook easily and need a lot of correction. Not a good mount for a leader, symbolically or practically.'

Is not the implication that you think all these horses 'white and grey' look white to the mind's eye (plus I wondered how do we know any of the truly 'white' horses are necessarily older)?

Ah, I think I see what you're asking.

I was careful to point out that this was what it "suggests to me". That suggestion is based on my personal experience, so let me give and example and see if that clarifies things a bit.

The first grey horse I knew as a kid was a mare named Blue Lady. By the time I first knew her she was between 10 and 15 and a pale dappled grey. That's a mature but not elderly age for a horse, and she had a gentle, intelligent disposition to go with here age and colour.

She lived to almost 30, and by the time she was 20 most people would have called her white, though you could still see some shadows around her legs. But there were pictures of her in her prime, possibly 4 or 5, that show her as a striking dark blue-grey, the colour for which she was named.

That's a slower greying process than Sharrasi seems to be imagining, which I have no doubt arises from our different experiences.

My comments above were also flavored by the new thought at the time that if all horses in ME are either black, white or grey, then perhaps they are from a very small gene pool, and perhaps they ALL carried the greying gene, in which case a horses perceived colour could become as good an indicator of a horse's age as its tooth angle and wear. That was just a new and interesting theory of mine. I had tried to keep it from creeping into the "HT" discussion, but clearly I failed in this case .

Does that make my remarks clearer?

both of you appear to be esteemed members of the modern Rohirrim,

We may appear to be members, but are we truly members, and do people refer to us as members? Those are the real questions!

David H wrote: Does that make my remarks clearer?

Yes, as to how you arrove at your opinion.

I think JRRT (possibly influenced by the notable Grani of the Sigurd legend) intended the reader to start with this much: grey as in grey in colour, before moving to applicability with respect to what this or other colours might suggest (nobility and so on), or applying the term 'grey' as used within the horse world.

To me it would seem a trade, in essence, to alter the visual image (grey) for something more ambiguous (grey or white) while letting the reader in on something with respect to age.

And if so, so far this doesn't seem to be a constant enough marker in the Primary World in any case, as the greying appears to be somewhat variant among horses -- while also noting it can suggest older horses to some (old enough to have turned white at the point of its description), or younger to others (young enough to have remained grey at the point of its description). And back to Gondolin, we can't know how old the white horses are (Felarof was white as a foal), and for all we know they outnumber the grey horses that have turned white (if so)!

That is, so far I don't think age would be a good trade off as far as authorial intent is considered, despite that reader applicability might arrive at older, experienced horses (thus wise steeds).


And the Sharrasian theory appears to say: grey is the colour grey; and the employment of HT need not muddle the visual image but can be in accordance with it -- in other words, if we have grey-coloured horses, what else can the knowledge of the modern Rohirrim say about them.

As I say, a shining theory to my mind (if correct)...

... and I can easily enough be distracted by shiny things

I have added a reference to my earlier post that lists the colours of horses as described in Tolkien's tales: a white pony from The Hobbit... I stumbled over it while researching goblin stature and posture... yes posture.

I know you know you wanted to know that there is a 'new' white pony on the list

I feel this addition to the debate eschews all previous theories and puts the balance of probability firmly in the other direction- just dont ask me to clarify any of that ok?

OK

ARGGHHH!!! the GREY thread has been revived!

I don't know which way to run.

downwards.

My favorite thread!

I'm bumping Elthir's list because it's so impressive and curious. Of all the many references he has found so far, all are Black/Grey/White except for one lone Chestnut [highlighted]. It's hard to imagine what Tolkien was thinking....

Elthir wrote:

The Lord of the Rings published 1954, 1955 (with some Hobbit examples too)


Asfaloth white
White-socks name of a pony at least
white pony (noted in The Hobbit around the time when the Dwarves are attacked by the Misty Mountain goblins)
white pony painted on a sign (so yes just an illustration of course)
Shadowfax grey, shines like silver, shadow-grey
Snowmane white
Rohald (Gandalf's horse in the 1960 Hobbit) white -- noted as white in the published Hobbit but not named there.
Hasufel 'dark-grey'
Arod 'lighter' than Hasufel (seemingly referring to colour as opposed to build)
The Riders of Rohan as horsed in this chapter 'their horses were of great stature (...) their grey coats glistened'
steeds of the Black Riders black
Rohan is noted to have had few black horses, due to theft
Eomer wears a white horse-tail
Eorl the Young illustrated as riding a white horse
Felarof 'white foal'
Windfola 'great grey steed' (Dernhelm's horse)
Stybba 'shaggy grey pony'
a company of knights of Dol Amroth 'riding grey horses'
Galadriel and Celeborn ride 'white steeds' into Minas Tirith
Arwen rides a 'grey palfrey' into Minas Tirith
Galadriel rides a 'white palfrey' to the Grey Havens
the Riders of the King's House rode upon white horses singing a song of Theoden
Bilbo rides a small grey pony to the Grey Havens

When confronting the Witch-king on his black horse, Glorfindel rides his white horse (Appendices)

Silmarillion (or Silmarillion related texts)

Nahar white, shines like silver in shadows

'Orome rode before them upon Nahar, white in the Starlight' Annals of Aman 'Then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver in the shadows; and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves.' Annals of Aman Orome's horse is noted as white in the Sketch of the Silmarillion (1926, but revised later, possibly as late as 1930), and his 'stallion' is noted as 'golden-shod' in the Lay of Leithian (roughly 1925 -- 1931) as well as 'shod with gold were his great horses'

Ecthelion rides a white horse
Tuor a grey horse was brought for Tuor
'... their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.' Fall of Gondolin, revised but unfinished version, Unfinished Tales, early 1950s

The Lay of Leithian (again roughly 1925 -- 1931)

XI
Once wide and smooth a plain was spread,
where King Fingolfin proudly led
his silver armies on the green,
his horses white, his lances keen;
his helmets tall of steel were hewn,
...

The Book of Lost Tales Tolkien's early prose, written in his early style. In The Theft Of Melko Melko steals a herd of black horses from Orome. And from The Chaining of Melko

'But when the great Gods and all their folk were armed, then Manwe climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Orome's domain, and (...) Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore who was his herald ran before; but Orome rode alone upon a chestnut horse and had a spear, and Tulkus strode mightily beside his stirrup, (...) Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. There rode the Fanturi upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lorien, and Salmar and Omar came behind running speedily, but Aule...'


Again, not necessarily all the examples, as that would take a bit of reading!

Oh fer cryin' out loud.

By the way Halfwise, what color is your hair, if I may ask? It's hard to tell from your photo.

chestnut. no, no...a lighter red than that. Vermilion or rust, actually lust is closer. Depending on the sun I've had it goes anywhere from terra-cotta to flame. I've been called strawberry blonde but that was my younger years. Rufous may do in a pinch.

Is there any chance it could be described as golden, especially if you were surrounded by dark haired elves and hobbits?
Or carrot?
Just curious!
{{{ I won't ask if there's any grey.... }}}

[BTW "chestnut isn't a color of horse. It just indicates some kind of reddish hue and that the mane and tail are the same or lighter color than the body. ]

david, do you actually know this stuff or do you read yourself up on it?

I usually only comment if I know something, but I figure it never hurts to double-check before posting just to be on the safe side (especially on Lore Master threads).

Here's a picture of my horse George. He's my authority on equestrian issues.

Not too bad for a 27 year old horse!
[BTW he is called a "dark bay" because his body is dark brown and his "points" (that's his mane, tail and lower legs) are black.]

is your hair carrot red Halfwise?

Oh, 'carrot top' isn't too far off.

David, I'd call your horse chestnut, but horse dudes likely would object.

halfwise wrote:Oh, 'carrot top' isn't too far off.

David, I'd call your horse chestnut, but horse dudes likely would object.

my absolute favorite color hair on girl or guy. My first crush ever was on a gentle quiet red haired boy called James. sigh, he had beautiful manners, hair, speech and he was truly a nice person , loved by both guys and girls. When I was grown I would watch Charlie Brown and the red haired girl and shed a tear for him, I knew how he felt.

I know a redheaded guy. One of my very best friends. And I manage to convert him and his family to the Sherlock Fandom *proud*.