Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread [2]

[Mrs Figg]

Its weird isnt it, how they can do the things to Palestinians that they have been guilt tripping the rest of the world for decades, ie, the mass displacing and undermining of a whole nation, systematic extinction but without the gas. You cant take peoples land and build a wall like the ghetto in Warsaw, without reprisal.

[David H]

It's not so weird. Many nations have done the same when faced with an ethnically different community that won't integrate. We did it in 19th and early twentieth century America by herding millions of native Americans onto reservations where disease and mass starvation often followed. This was considered humane by most people at the time, compared to open genocide.

Britain had the same problem in many colonies and became quite scientific about it. Canada, Australia and South Africa used versions of the same model, which seems horrific now but was considered progressive and humane in its day. The Nazis copied and improved from there.

For most of it's history Israel has been trying to follow the British Colonial model, and not surprisingly it has brought them to Apartheid. It's not genocide yet, but with modern technology it wouldn't take much to cross the line.

But it's only fair to acknowledge that a majority of the Israelis I've met are not at all comfortable with what's happening. Because of the open threats against them they see a hawkish government as a necessary evil, but it doesn't mean many of them don't still abhor its actions.

[Norc]

omg, HOW DID I MISS THIS!

for what it's worth, I am on the Palestinian side of it. Hell, Israel is acting like old colonial powers or whatever, just kicking people out of their home saying god gave them the land and because of what hitler did to them, they deserve something good. good gracious God..!

[chris63]

The second coming will sort it all out.

[halfwise]

So the Lord Christ will come in all of his glory, and the Jews and Muslims will look at him and say "who the hell are you?". Won't make it past a single checkpoint.

[chris63]

[chris63]

But during that period of great tribulation, the second event will take place. This second event is known as the rapture. The rapture is when Jesus will appear in the sky and take those who are ready for him out of the period of great tribulation. They will be lifted off the earth without dying and will meet Jesus in the air. From there, Jesus will take them to heaven while the great tribulation continues on the earth.

After the great tribulation has continued on the earth for a few years, Jesus will again come back to the earth along with all of his followers who were with him in heaven. In this third and final event, Jesus will put an end to the great tribulation, judge the inhabitants of the world, and set up his 1,000-year Kingdom of Heaven on the earth. He will sit on a throne in Jerusalem and run the earth the way it was meant to be run. It will be a time of unprecedented peace and prosperity. No one in their right mind would want to miss out on this utopia.

Finally, after the 1,000-year reign of Christ on the earth, God’s people will enter the New Jerusalem. This will be a 2.7 billion cubic mile city (Revelation 21:16) that will come down out of heaven from God. It will be the paradise of paradises, and it will be the eternal dwelling place of God and his people. There we will enjoy God and Jesus and God’s people for ever and ever. No one in their right mind would want to miss out on this final heaven.

So the question arises, “When will Jesus second coming take place?” After all, it has been 2,000 years and he hasn’t come yet. It is difficult to know the answer right now. Jesus himself told us that no one would know the day or the hour. But he also told us that we should be able to see it coming as the time approaches. If today’s world heads toward a period of great tribulation, then it very well may be that the rapture will soon take place. But if the great tribulation is a long way away, then so is Jesus’ second coming. Jesus instructed us to keep watch of the world situation so that we won’t be surprised when he comes for the rapture. My personal opinion is that the rapture in not imminent right now since the world doesn’t seem to be in the great tribulation, but that we could be headed for the great tribulation in the next several years. If this is the case, then Jesus could possibly come for the rapture in the next 7-10 years.

So what should we do to prepare for the rapture? The best things that we can do are to live our lives wisely and avoid sin. Jesus said in Matthew 10:16, “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” Here Jesus clearly says that we are to live our lives wisely and avoid sin. We are to try to remain blameless in the world if we can. Even if the rapture doesn’t take place for another 1,000 years, following these teachings will still stand us in good stead for our life in this world, and will lead to a heavenly reward when we enter heaven (see column entitled Reward in heaven dated 7/4/07).

In summary, Jesus’ second coming will be just as monumental as his first coming, and the chances are fairly high that it will happen in our lifetime.

Copyright 2007 Michael Fitzcharles

P S. by the way i'm an Atheist

[Pettytyrant101]

The ultraorthodox Jews are simply depsicabale, vile and nuts. And their numbers are growing- yes they are a minority at the moment at about 20% of the population of Israel, but 20% is still a hell of a lot.

[Eldorion]

But, but, countries have a right to defend themselves!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/18/gilad-sharon-israel-gaza-op-ed_n_2155932.html

Gilad Sharon, son of former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, wrote an op-ed on Sunday calling for even more aggressive Israeli strikes in Gaza.

"We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza," states Sharon in The Jerusalem Post.

The violence between Israel and Hamas this week has reportedly claimed the lives of 81 Palestinians, including 37 civilians, as well as 3 Israeli civilians. Current Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said that "the Israeli military is prepared to significantly expand the operation."

Sharon writes in his op-ed, entitled "A decisive conclusion is necessary," that "the residents of Gaza are not innocent, they elected Hamas. The Gazans aren’t hostages; they chose this freely, and must live with the consequences." After saying that Israel needs to "flatten all of Gaza," he goes on to say, "The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too."

He concludes his defense of Israel's actions with a hawkish message:

"There is no middle path here – either the Gazans and their infrastructure are made to pay the price, or we reoccupy the entire Gaza Strip. Otherwise there will be no decisive victory. And we’re running out of time – we must achieve victory quickly. The Netanyahu government is on a short international leash. Soon the pressure will start – and a million civilians can’t live under fire for long. This needs to end quickly – with a bang, not a whimper."

A bio on the website for HarperCollins Publishers describes Sharon as follows:

"Gilad Sharon is the youngest of former Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon’s sons. Gilad holds a master’s degree in economics and writes a column for the prominent Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth. A major in the Israel Defense Force reserves, he currently manages his family’s farm in Israel."

Sharon isn't alone in his militant tone. Israel's Deputy Prime Minister Eli Yishai is reported by The Yeshiva World News to have said, "We must blow Gaza back to the Middle Ages, destroying all the infrastructure including roads and water." Haaretz also reports that Yishai stated, "The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages."

Good luck acquiring your lebensraum, fuckers.

[Eldorion]

Video from a counter-demonstration against an anti-war rally.



Highlights from far-right Israeli MP Micahel Ben-Ari include:

"Good evening good jews, and all the traitor leftists."
"There are no innocent people in Gaza."
"Why is it only 200 flights and 15 killed? We want 15 flights and 2000 killed."

[Pettytyrant101]

What can you say to that?
You live in Gaza you deserve to die?
If this was a sci-fi the Jews would be the Imperial Stormtroopers.

[Eldorion]

Fear will keep the occupied territories in line.

Fear of this battle station.

Spoiler:

[Mrs Figg]

the wives of ultraorthodox Jewish men have to wear fright wigs. Thats just the worst. Bombs I can cope with.

[halfwise]

The Israeli establishment has a lot to answer for, just don't take the hype too far.

[Pettytyrant101]

In my view the creation of the artificial state of Israel was the stupidest thing to happen last century- and there were two world wars competing for that title.

And it was a complete betrayal of the Palestinian people who were instrumental in helping us win the second world war in that part of the world.

The Un voted 5 years ago to do something about Israels illegal occuptation of Palestinian land and what followed? Israel just kept right on doing it taking ever more homes and land without reproach. More betrayal.
If the shoe were on the other foot and the Palestinians did that they would have faced threats, economic sanctions, and selling them arms would have been illegal. Its a disgraceful double standard.

[Eldorion]

The Israeli establishment has a lot to answer for, just don't take the hype too far.

I think this is a fair point. I try to avoid making too many generalizations. Hell, the video I posted was a counter-demonstration and you can see the anti-war people across the street. Still, I'm not sure the last time I saw a member of Congress/Parliament or any Cabinet in the so-called first world openly calling for genocide. I'm sure there were some people who came close to that in the early years of the War on Terror but I don't think they were that high up. It's frightening to see in Israel even though I realize they're most likely a minority. And the policies of their government don't help, as you mention....

[Pettytyrant101]

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan described Israel as a "terrorist state", citing the "massacre of children" during its bombardments of Gaza.- BBC

Given Turkey for a long time was a friend to Israel (at least diplomatically) I think this demonstrates how far Israel has gone and it may get worse yet.

[Eldorion]

Haven't Turkey and Israel been feuding for a couple of years over the attack on the fleet of aid ships? I'm sure that colors the Turkish PM's perspective.

Not to say that that attack was justified in any way either.

[Pettytyrant101]

There has been a cooling on Turkeys part, and a withdrawal from direct diplomacy in recent years following that incident Eldo- you are quite right there- but I cant think of another example of the Turkish PM coming out and declaring Israel a terrorist state. Thats new I think and a provocative statement to make.

[Eldorion]

That's a good point. Even more so because the current PM is not especially religious, correct? I'm under the impression that Turkey is one of the most secular states in that region.

[Pettytyrant101]

It prides itself on the secular nature of its government, and its entry into the EU as a full memebr, which is a long term goal of Turkey, is partly dependent on its secular nature- it is a Muslim country with a secular democratic government.
Secularism in Turkish rule goes back at least to the Ottoman Empire.

[halfwise]

If Turkey slides too far away from being a secular country it will be a huge loss for the world. Attaturk may have taken things a bit too far, but on the whole he was right.

As far as the israeli rhetoric goes, the operable phrase was "Why is it only 200 flights and 15 killed? We want 15 flights and 2000 killed." The difference is between what Israel is and what it keeps itself from sliding into being.

The Israelis do not plan attacks the way someone like Assad does; though ruthless in obtaining their objectives, wholesale killing is never one of the objectives. However if attacked directly they will kill whoever is attacking without second thought. Yet they do take prisoners if not under fire. As far as prisoners go what might be classified as moderate torture (stress positions, sleep deprivation) were used until their own supreme court outlawed it in 1999, and there have been almost no such reports since.

Yes, they have done many bad things, but except for the settlements it's usually in response to being in a bad position. Admittedly, they have nobody to blame but themselves for being in the bad position to begin with. Setting them equal to the worst regimes on the planet is unfair, just as unfair as viewing them as the virtuous state many would believe them to be.

Israel has to pull back to the non-settlement territory, satisfy itself with half of jerusalem, and start being a good neighbor to the formerly occupied territories. Stop declaring itself a Jewish state and bulldoze the settlements for peace. It would be better if the whole sordid experiment had never happened, but the clock can only be turned back so far.

[Pettytyrant101]

Sadly I cannot see Israel settling for pulling back and returning stolen land- the very limited attempt made a couple of years ago to disband some Jewish settlements on Palestinian land saw a sizable opposition by the Jewish people against it and therefore never came to anything. Since then they have only expanded their settlement plans.
The very strong impression I get from Israel over the years is that in reality they have no real interest or intention to go along with the 2 state solution.

And you simply cannot displace a people from their homes and fence them in behind a wall and expect them to be happy about it.

[halfwise]

Actually the majority of Palestinians are living in israel and have full Israeli citizenship. Their towns are rather ghetto compared to the Jewish towns, but legally they have no restrictions and receive education and health care. They resent the jewish state and may not be well treated by civil servants, but any mistreatment is not by official program. The formerly occupied territories are altogether different.

Anyway, the only reason I'm defending Israel here is I think any over the top comments are counter productive. The reality is so much more complex.

[Eldorion]

Actually the majority of Palestinians are living in israel and have full Israeli citizenship. Their towns are rather ghetto compared to the Jewish towns, but legally they have no restrictions and receive education and health care. They resent the jewish state and may not be well treated by civil servants, but any mistreatment is not by official program. The formerly occupied territories are altogether different.

I'm sure Israel is smart enough to write their laws in accordance with Western legal and moral standards regardless of their actual practices. And I think it's the treatment of those Palestinians living the West Bank and Gaza strip that provokes the bulk of the international outrage.

Anyway, the only reason I'm defending Israel here is I think any over the top comments are counter productive. The reality is so much more complex.

Out of curiosity, did you find any of the comments in this thread to be counter-productive? I ask because there's a chance they weren't made entirely seriously, as is often the case here.