UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

I've always liked that song. I'd like to see that original production they photoshopped.

{{ So the EU have agreed an extension until January 2020.
Boris wants a general election now on the 12th of december.
The lib-dem and the SNP now want one too, but on the 9th of December.
And Labour? well they are currently still fence sitting of course!
They have constently said they want an election, then it was we will have an election but only once no deal is off the table, now it is off the table and they still can't decide if they want an election or not.
So we are still waiting to see on three fronts- will the SNP and lib-dems move to Boris's 12th date, will Boris move to the SNP/Lib 9th date or will there be two opposing bills up for vote, and lastly and leastly, will Labour actually get off the fucking fence and decide on something. }}

I woke up this morning and thought "Ah, Plan B! Right on schedule!"

The Guardian wrote:Brexit: Parliament to blame, says No 10, as EU extension offer confirms PM to break October promise – live news

{{ Seems the press are being briefed- Labour have decided!! To sit on the fence!!! They have decided on the all important vote to have an election to - ABSTAIN!!!!! }}

Labour MPs are expected to abstain in the Commons vote on a 12 December election.- BBC

{{ Labour did abstain in the vote and the government lost its first attempt to hold an election on dec 12th.
They are bringing it back tomorrow for another go- Lib dems and SNP say they will vote for it if the PM drops the Withdrawal Bill till after an election, Boris has now agreed to do that so we shall see. If Tory, Libs and SNP vote for it tomorrow it won't matter what Labour do, it'll be enough to call an election.
So given all the previous excuses for why Labour wouldnt have an election are now gone anyway what is their current excuse for still not backing one?

'this would involve asking elderly people "to go out into the polling stations in the depths of winter," as well as the risk of students being "disenfranchised".'- BBC

I kid you not. }}

Elderly people going out to polling stations in winter, now THERE'S an issue to reunite and energize the Labour Party!

{{ Thiing is its not even a half good excuse because anyone, of any age who thinks it might be a bit dicey for them to go out can get a postal vote, it's simply not an issue.
But 'disenfranchise students' theres the rub for Labour, putting aside for the moment why it would mean students woudl find it harder to vote as I dont see why, Labour thinks it will be- and Labour really, really need those student votes because the only people who will vote for current Labour policy, dreamt up in think-tanks of Momemtum and Unite, are students who still think Marxism sounds like a good idea worth trying. }}

{{ Labour have finally caved to pressure!

'Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn says his party will support an early general election as the government makes its pitch for a poll on 12 December.'

And remember those much needed student votes?

"We will now launch the most ambitious and radical campaign for real change our country has ever seen."
Mr Burgon said Labour would be pushing to get votes for 16 and 17-year-olds, as well as EU nationals so they can have their say.'

So here we go again!!!!! }}

The most important thing now is to get 16-17 year olds the right to vote and signed up on the electoral register.

Isn't that a little young?

{{ They have the vote already in Scotland for Scottish elections, as do EU nationals, the world neither ended nor did our political discourse go down a hole, if anything it got better.
The majority of 16/17 year olds dont bother their arse voting anyway because they are 16/17 yr olds and otherwise occupied, and those that do are the sort of 16/17 year olds who like and pay attention to politics so they are genrally better informed than many adults voting.

To recap the days events- Boris won! that was brief.  

OK, Parliament passed Boris bill to hold a general election on the 12th of December.
Labour however seem to have decided the best way they could spend the day was trying to make an arse of themselves.
You may recall that a few days ago the Libs and the SNP got together to try to force the election to be on the 9th, but yesterday Boris acquiesed to their demands so they dropped it?
Well Labour thought it was a good idea to jump on that bandwagon and tabled an amendment to Boris's election bill to hold it on the 9th instead. The only problem with this particular bandwagon jumping being that every one else had got on the bandwagon, rode it to its destination and got back off again the day before. Leaving Labour standing on the back of the wagon all on their own demanding a 9th dec election on grounds that had already been resoloved the day before. Unsurprisngly their amendment failed.
And their other amendment- to get votes for 16/17 yr olds rightly never got selected for a vote by the Speaker, for the good reason such a change is clearly a bill in itself and not something you can just attach to a completely different bill its only tangentaily related too.
I am struggling to imagine how Corbyn could be any more ineffectual as a party leader. }}

{{ Labours official excuse for yesterday's shambles, note the explanation doens't make a lick of sense! }}

'Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell explains about the confusion in last night's vote, which led to 104 Labour MPs abstaining after receiving a text message from the whips telling them to do so.
"There was confusion all round," he says. "There were earlier votes to amend the bill. And sometimes you have a formal vote, where you walk through lobbies, other times you just have a shout, yes or no. Sometimes the whips from all parties can't keep up with the process. The text goes out, it's too late."- BBC

"You're my only hope Obi Wan Corbynobi"

well he looks the part I guess.

{{{ }}

{{ Well election mode is in full swing.
And we are getting an idea of where Tory and Labour will stand, which is largely as expected- Boris is going for a primary mesage of getting Brexit done and backing it up with pledges on domestic stuff, NHS and social services etc.

Labour are not even pretending to be aiming for the middle ground- they are going all out student union politics here with Corbyn today making pledges such as-

"On our first day in office, we will immediately buy all the properties necessary to house the homeless."

And that'll be our tax payer money I assume he will be using to do it with! Given most homeless and rough sleepers are in cities, and primarily in London that will cost a penny or two!

And if you want an idea of where Labour are there is this one-

'After Jeremy Corby pledges to make the richest in society pay a fair share of tax, Labour MP Lloyd Russell-Moyle goes one step further tweeting-

“I don't think anyone in this country should be a billionaire”

So you can add that to giving private renters the right to buy the property whether the landlord wants to sell or not, nationalising various industries and the railways, and massively increasing taxation.

In my entire lifetime England has never shown the slightest inclination it will vote for such policies. I honestly dont think they will this time either. }}

{{{ Though should have had Patel in there at the end as the Bride of Frankenstein! }}

  yep good one.

{{ Heres an example of where I think Labours position, or lack thereof, on Brexit is going to cost them on the ground.

The Labour MP for Hemsworth, a constituency which voted 68% leave tried to make his pitch like this-

"On Brexit we're offering a Brexit deal, we know we can get one, we've already spoken to the European Union. It will offer a Brexit where we will be out of the European Union but not in such a way it will be damaging to jobs.""

Thing is that Brexit deal it to remain in the customs market, remain in the customs area and retain free movement of people- basically everything 90% of leave voters voted against. Speaking to the EU and getting a deal are two different things, especially as they have never been the government when doing so, and unless Labour win a landslide such a deal has no chance of passing the House.

"To the country as a whole what we're saying is whether you're Remain or Leave there's a route through for you for voting Labour."

First how does having a policy to get a deal no one wants provide a route through for both sides? And secondly if your Remain, Corbyn doesnt want to Remain he wants to leave with a deal he keeps saying, and if your Leave the deal he says he wants to leave on doesn't look anything like leaving, more like sticking to all the EU rules but no longer having a say in their making.

Its not a clear message for either set of voters. And I think labour are going to run into this an awful lot on the doorstep, and thats before you factor in how unpopular Corbyn is in many parts of the country. I think they might find it tougher than expected knocking on doors.}}

Hmm... I'm beginning to see Corbyn's strategy less as fence-sitting and more like straddling a wide mucky ditch, knowing that he's eventually going to fall face-first into the muck, but trying to put it off as long as possible.

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Heres an example of where I think Labours position, or lack thereof, on Brexit is going to cost them on the ground.

The Labour MP for Hemsworth, a constituency which voted 68% leave tried to make his pitch like this-

"On Brexit we're offering a Brexit deal, we know we can get one, we've already spoken to the European Union. It will offer a Brexit where we will be out of the European Union but not in such a way it will be damaging to jobs.""

Thing is that Brexit deal it to remain in the customs market, remain in the customs area and retain free movement of people- basically everything 90% of leave voters voted against. Speaking to the EU and getting a deal are two different things, especially as they have never been the government when doing so, and unless Labour win a landslide such a deal has no chance of passing the House.

"To the country as a whole what we're saying is whether you're Remain or Leave there's a route through for you for voting Labour."

First how does having a policy to get a deal no one wants provide a route through for both sides? And secondly if your Remain, Corbyn doesnt want to Remain he wants to leave with a deal he keeps saying, and if your Leave the deal he says he wants to leave on doesn't look anything like leaving, more like sticking to all the EU rules but no longer having a say in their making.

Its not a clear message for either set of voters. And I think labour are going to run into this an awful lot on the doorstep, and thats before you factor in how unpopular Corbyn is in many parts of the country. I think they might find it tougher than expected knocking on doors.}}

To be honest Petty I think 'most leave voters' haven't got a clue about what the customs union actually meant in 2016. I think most of them just wanted to stick it to the EU after 30 years of Murdoch propaganda. and of course those pesky 'furriners' taking their jobs, as per Murdoch poison. I don't think they had a clue or even cared much otherwise.

{{{ Sadly I dont think the fine details matter Figg- most Leave voters just want to leave the EU. For them its simple and straightforward- and the Tories are offering leaving with a ready to go deal, the Brexit party are offering leave with no deal, the lib-dems and SNP are standing squarely for remaining and Labour?

I watch politics closer than the average person I'd say and I would, and have on here, struggled to articulate what I think the Labour position is.
At the moment I'd say it was to stand for leaving with a deal, that has yet to be put on the table, discussed or negiotated in any way, that they will then get the EU and the House to somehow to agree to this deal before finally putting back to the people in a referendum during which the Labour party (presumably the government at this point) would remain neutral, neither supporting leave, remain or even their own deal.
Do you honestly feel that people have a stomach to go through all this again or have it dragged out for anohter few years to achieve all that?
And when this muddled strategy is mixed on the doorstep with some very radical far-left policies I don't think its a very palatable mix outside of students and radicals.

The first tv leaders debate has been decided for the 19th, I think if Boris is smart (and he is not great live he can lose his cool and be coaxed into mistakes) he will seek to expose Corbyn weak positions on everything along with exposing the more radical policies. }}

{{ Maybe a sign of the state of Labour in Scotland }}

'A former Scottish Labour MSP has quit the party and joined the SNP.
Anne McTaggart, who is currently a Glasgow city councillor for Anniesland and Drumchapel, confirmed her switch on Friday.
It brings the total number of SNP councillors in Glasgow to 38, with Labour reduced to 30.
She said: "I really want to be part of something positive. Labour hasn't done anything positive of note for a long time in Glasgow. Meanwhile, I've watched the SNP delivering positive policies, at a national and a city level, which are the right ones for my community."- BBC

As for Labour's position, I think its two things. Firstly Corbyn has always been a leaver and he has probably insisted on keeping a small door open to a labour brexit. His faithful will have followed his insistence with the result being a clever switcheroo. They are now trying to turn Corbyn's ambivalence into one of the strengths of the labour party by saying they will put forward a Labour brexit deal and then put it back to the people in a vote. That way they can say they are being far more democratic than the Lib-Dems (revoke) and the Tories (no deal/hard brexit). Corbyn was dragged kicking and screaming into offering a second ref, but he insisted on giving brexit a go. That's what I think, they will turn fence-sitting into a major selling point.