Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:17 am

{{ Time to talk Boris, and do a recap of where we are and what it says about Boris and how he acts in context.

So lets rewind the clock back to previous PM Cameron and his decision to hold a Brexit referndum. He did this because the Tory party was split, as it has been for decades, over Europe, with a large rump of the Tory party havng always been anti-EU.
Cameron thought it was a no-brainer folk would vote remain, so he could hold the referendum, let the people vote to remain and finally shut up that vocal rump of his party.

So what went wrong? Enter Boris. We have to be very clear, up till this moment in time Boris was not part of the anti-Eu rump. Quite the opposite in fact he was vocally pro-europe. His road to damascus on this one however was no revelation or moment of realisation but a very cynical ploy to get himself into being PM. Boris switched allegiances and became the leader and spokesperson for the anti-Eu backbenchers in the Tory party and the main voice alongside UKIP's Farage in arguing for Leaving.
The Reman side under Cameron, thinking there would be little organised Leave campaign were thrown for a loop and Leave got to make all the running.

Cameron lost the referndum and Teresa May becmae PM tasked with coming up with the legislation to leave the EU and carry out Brexit. But May was a remainer, and her version of Brexit was 'soft'- as in it would keep the Uk aligned with the EU single market on standards thus removing the need for any borders for trade- the main purpose for this of course being Northern Ireland- which we have to bring into this in a bit more detail now.

The Good friday Agreement overseen by US President Clinton was to end the bloodshed of the Troubles. During the Troubles there was a manned border between north and south Ireland, and it was a flash piont often the place where attacks and terrorism took place. Brexit however had a big problem, if the UK, with Northern Ireland, left the EU then the land border with the EU would be right across Ireland.
Putting a border there again was seen as a very, very bad idea indeed and in fact would contravene the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. Mays solution was to peg UK food and goods standards to the EU's thus allowing for goods to continue to move freely across the Irish border without the EU risking their own tradeborders and maintaining the integrity of the single market- the EU's highest priority in the Brexit negotations.

May however could not get her plan through Parliament as her own backbenchers- that anti-Eu element led by Boris- would not settle for a deal like that- saying there was no point in leaving if we stuck to the same things as if we were inside- and that to unleash Britains potential in trade we had to be free to decide our own standards, even if that meant falling below EU standards (say a trade deal withe US including chlorenated chicken for example or GM crops) and so after several failed attempts to pass her plan to leave the Tories moved against May and held a no confidence vote in her. She won that fairly comfortably but the writing was on the wall and a few months later she was gone, forced to resign when it became clear she wa snever gettting her version of Brexit through.

Step in Boris, having positioned himself as a hard Brexiteer and put himself at the head of the anti-EU Tories he was their obvious choice.
There was a problem however- a looming General Election and Brexit having dragged on by this point a couple years since the Leave vote and we still had not left.
Boris approached this with his usual bluster- he made a ton of false claims, about how much money would be saved for serviices lik the NHS, his campaign was full of short, snappy slogans "get Brexit Done" and the like that appealed to a nation getting sick of the whole thing dragging on and on.

But Boris had a problem still- the same problem May had in fact- where do you put the border with the EU if you dont agree to abide by the Single market rules? Boris solution was, quite frankly just to lie. That simple, just lie about it, tell everyone what they want to hear.

At the very time the governments own secret at the time internal analysis of the protocol deal he was fomulating with the EU said that there would have to checks on goods at the Irish border- this was unacceptable to all sides as it risked the Good friday Agreement and a return to the bad old days- Boris was saying publicly there were no borders in the agreement. In fact he had signed up to the only outcome possible- to put the border down the Irish Sea, with goods being checked between mainland Uk and NI.

This solved the border issue regards the Agreement- there would be no border in Ireland. Further NI uniquely of the parts of the Uk would remain aligned with the EU single market- so it would work by goods being checked for conformaty to EU rules as they go from UK to NI, as they conform the goods can then move freely if wished across the Irish border and into the EU. Meanwhile mainland Uk can go its own way on food and good standards, so long as the stuff sent to NI still met the EU standards.

But it would create another massive problem, it split NI off from the rest of the UK, with different rules and of course extra costs/paperwork and time as there was now a border between mainland UK and NI. A poisiton utterly unacceptable to the NI Unionists who would see this as a betrayal by the Uk government and the beginings of slow inexerable slide towards Irish unity and NI leaving the UK.

Boris aware of all this as I mentioned simply choose to lie- he claimed his EU deal was 'oven ready' all folk had to do was vote Tory at the elections and the deal would go through and all would be sunshine and light. When asked directly if his plan would create a border with NI he emphatically told everyone "there would be no borders". Despite by this time it being clear and even outlined in his own parties papers, not to mentiomn Boris and co were negotating the deal, that there would in fact need to be borders.

And this gives us the main core of Boris as PM. Some PM's try to see ahead to at least the end of the parliamentary term, some just till the end of the week. Boris is one day. The entire way Boris works is he only has to suirvive till tomorrow. And so long as he keeps doing that every day he will be PM forever. So for Boris it doesnt matter what he says with regards to truth- it just nbeeds to be whatever he needs to do or say to get him through today still in place.

He knew the Protocol he was negotiating would cause chaos and be unworkable, he knew how the Unionists would feel about it- so rather than deal with any of that he just lied about what wa sin the protocoal, to everyone. As a result he got elected and his protocol came into law.

And then everyone saw it did have borders. So Boris lied again- it was the EU acting in bad faith, it was the EU being overzealous in implmenting the agreed rules and so on. Each day a new lie to get to tomorrow. But all the problems pile up with this method.
The Unionists pulled out the NI assembly- its devolved government, grinding NI to a halt politically and it still is- the Unionist refusing to take part unless Boris changes the protocol to remove the borders.

Now we have to look at Boris's other main tactic besides telling people what they want to hear- grand, delibretly divisive gesture politics to both distract and throw red meat to the right of the Tory party who keep him in place.
There are plenty examples- when it looked like Parliament might prevent his plan he simply suspended democracy and closed Parliament- he knew it was illegal and would create chaos, but it let him surive long enough to do it. When half his party opposed his hard brexit plans he simply purged them from the party. He promised Brexit voters we would reclaim our borders and stop illegal immigration, but it actually and rather obviously got worse, so round them up and ship them off to a dodgy regime in Rwanda. When cornenered Boris will always go for the big grand gesture, and ideally divisive so everyone gets onto that topic and forgets the previous thing he was on the ropes for ( in case of the Rwanda thing it was the findinngs of party gate).

Talking of party gate, it highlights another major feature of Boris as PM- his belief that rules and laws are for ordinary little poeple not him- this goes back a long way to the little boy Boris whose ambition was to be 'ruler of the world', teenage Boris whose form teacher wrote that Boris coud not comprehend that rules that apply to everyone also apply to him, to his university bet with Cameron over which would be PM first. Or his membership of the notorious Bullington Club who would smash up restraunts and throw money at the owners and burn £100 notes in the faces of the homelsss for a laugh, it all speaks to Boris's character, entitlement and belief he is outside the normal rules.

This in the end has been his biggest problem and led to the biggest issues- when his Home Secretrary Pritti Patel was found guilty of bullying her staff, he overworte the finindg and kept her in post, despite the Ministerial Code being quite clear if you break the code you should resign, forcing the first of the governments Ethics Ministers to quit their post in protest. When the country was in Lockdown staff at No10 were holding parties, Boris among them. And when he was found guilty and even became the first PM ever to be fined by the police for lawbreaking while in office he ignored the findings, making public apoligies whilst teling folk behind the scenes he hadnt done anything wrong.

This was Boris dodgiest moment and had Putin not invaded Ukraine when he did Boris may have gone then, but Putin did and gave Tory Mp's the excuse they needed to claim now was not the time to change PM with a war in Europe.

But partygate is a great example of all the Boris things- his sense of being above the law, even laws he makes, the lying even when its blatant and he will be found out but its ok as he wont be found out till tomorrow and today the lie works, to how he responds with grand gestures to disract and throw red meat.

First the attitude of course- he made rules that prevented people seeing their dying loved ones in hospital or attending their funeral let along socially gathering for just fun, then ignored the rules himself. His lies were incredible, in response to rumours of parties he was clear- there were no parties. Then when proof of seeming parties emerged- there were work functions and no covid rules were broken and he didn't know about them anyway, then when it became clear they were not work events he claimed he didnt knwo they had happened and maybe some rules had been broken buthe wasnt there, then it came out he was at some of the parites and in fact one of them was his own birthday party- so now it was 'I was at some of them but I didnt know they were parties'- a tissue of lies but each one just enough to surive till tomorrow in reponse to the attack of the moment.
And having been fined by the police and his own party finally getting sick enough of all the scandals to have a no confidence vote in him, he won that but by far less than Teresa May won hers and it didnt save her- Boris is left now with just under half of Boris's own MP's now publicly having stated he is not fit for office- yet he is still there. Why is he still there? Boris moved immediately to distractionary tactics- in the wake of all this he annnounced the refugees sent to Rwanda plan, and rewrote the NI protocal to simply ignore the border checks, breaking the treaty he just signed risking a trade war with the EU and breaching International Law- a perfect example of his grand divisive gesture to distract.

Its the same as always- enough to survive today even though its lies, smokescreens and half baked to serve a moment in time policies, but it is slowly catching up with him. The no confidnce vote was bad, though he won he only just won and has lost half his party (hence the appeals with hard right policies) but he is still under investigation for if he misled Parliament- which should be a resigining matter but Boris is simply propsing to rewrite the ministreial code so it isnt- another example of responding with something big and confrontational.

The EU will decide how to respond to the breach of the Protocol by just changing it to suit himself and Unionists and that might be bad for him if it hits trade even more at a time when prices are already rocketing globally, and the International Court will most likely find the UK has broken the law, making us a rogue nation.

But none of it, the chaos, the disruption, the law breaking, it doesnt matter as Boris tactics of jst till tomorrow have worked so far, he is still there when any other PM would have been gone long (if for no other reason than they would have resigned by now on priinciple, but Boris has no principles).

But in case this gives the impression Boris is not smart- don't mistake him for Trump, they use similar tactics but Boris is clever and politicaly astute and experienced with it.
Take the Rwanda thing- its hugely devisive and does the distracting media and public alike from everything else, but thats not all it is. Its more clever than that- its illegal, they know its illegal, it breaches the European Court of Human Rights ( not part of the EU but set up by Winston Churchill post WW2 to ensure no European citizens are ever subject to the horros they were during Hitlers time), but its meant to breach it. Thats its real point. As was obvious they would be the flights have been temporarily halted after the ECHR stopped them. Allowing Boris and the right of his party- who he needs now to back him after he nearly lost the confidnce vote- to pick a fight with the European Human Rights Court- a target the right have long since hated and wanted removed. Its a decivise policy meant to be deivisive, meant to strir up a fight providing the perfect excuse for the Uk to leave the Court.
The gestures whilst often distractionary are also often concealing greater more devisive far right plans down the line. Watch this space as the Tories start talking up leaving the Court and its conventions in the name of British soverignty and not having Johnnie Foreigner tell us what to do. }}

by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:49 am

great summary Petty Thumbs Up

by halfwise Sat Jun 18, 2022 12:52 pm

Fascinating to a foreigner - have seen all of this but not the unifying thread running through it.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:25 pm

{{ An interesting side note, especially to the vote of no confidence, is the Scottish Tories- their leader Douglas Ross called for Boris to go early, when partygate emerged, then when Boris didnt and clearly wasnt going he needed an out- provided handily by the war in Ukraine when he changed his position to 'now is not the right time with a war on'. But then when the no confidence vote came along Ross and 3/4 of Scottish Tories, including all its senior members voted against Boris and publicly stated he was not fit for office.
Now if Boris hangs in there for another couple of years to the next General Election, or calls one early (thats in his back pocket when it gets to crunch time- itll keep him in office another day and he might even win again) it means the Scottish Tories will have to go to the Scottish electorate an ask them to vote for a party headed by a man they publicly say is not fit for office! You couldn't make it up. }}

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 18, 2022 2:58 pm

{{ A quick nosey though the right wing press today, and suprise, suprise I find this line being promoted in them all in one fashion or another- the European Human Rights Court has to go!
A great example is the Suns opinion column 'The Sun says' whose opening reads-

'THE EU and its superfan Tony Blair ensured Britain was bound hand and foot by the European Convention on Human Rights....Dominic Raab’s Bill of Rights, coming within days, must instead defang it, enabling us to ignore ECHR rulings counter to our wishes and interests.
But if even that falls short, Boris Johnson MUST go further. Brexit meant regaining power over our borders and laws. Even outside the EU we are not there yet while this separate body, the ECHR, can veto our immigration policy. The PM must not rest until we have taken back control . . . in full.'

And that story is backed up by another headlined- 'Fury as European Court of Human Rights REFUSE to reveal identity of judge who blocked Rwanda flight'

This salvo is accompanied by yet another article headlined- 'Britain to unveil new laws in days after judges blocked PM’s Rwanda migrant plan'- laying the groundwork for the UK withdrawal if not from the entire ECHR then the most important bits of it.

Youll aslo find for example in the Telegraph the artcle headlined bluntly-
'The ECHR has strayed far from its original purpose. It is time for Britain to leave it.'

And its same in most of the rest of the right wing press- not one but several attacks on the ECHR from different angles all of course briefed on and leaked privetly by the Government to their pet press to tell a narrative- all with the same aim, making the case for why the UK should not be part of the ECHR - which at the end of the day is the real reason behind the Rwanda plan in the first place. }}

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:27 pm

{{Quick add on the whole NI protocol thing- there is a very good chance the entire thing has been manipulated to this exact point quite deliberately from the start- the argument goes like this- first Boris negotiates a deal he knows is unacceptable to Unionists in NI, but will allow him in the short term to say he has the solution- it does involve him lying about borders but thats part of the plan.
When people see there are borders the predictable Unionist response to it happens. Boris rather than admitting there were borders in the agreement all along simply switches tack- he blames the implementation of the protocol on the EU- calling them deliberately overzealous implementing it in ways it was not intended to harm the UK as punishment for Brexit etc.
In reality the EU are simply implementing what the Uk agreed and signed on for.

But Boris can then shape the narrative- the NI assembly is suspended by his NI allies the DUP- now he has a new argument too bring forth- the protocol is damaging the Good Friday Agreement and it must take precedent over all other International Agreements like say the Protocol Boris only just agreed to.
So now Boris argues the protocol has to be rewritten by the Uk government, it has no choice to protect the Good Friday Agreement.

So he simply rewrites the treaty without consulting the EU at ll- he knows this will provoke an EU response but is gambling in the current economic climate the response will be more a gesture and show than it will actually have real teeth.

And many ague this was the point all along. The EU negotiators who have been trying to compromise and alter the protocol within the framework to make it run smoother have long complained the UK side didn't seem genuine about its negotiations, or really seemed to want to find a workable solution within the framework. And this is because we never intended to honour it from the start- the end game was always this- just doing what Boris wants regardless of international law or treaties signed. But doing it this way has led Boris to have 'moral' cover for his illegal actions- protecting the Good Friday Agreement - from a treaty lets remember he created and signed. Adding to the sense this is one long game.

Boris is a master of engineering a crisis he has already foreseen the end game of, and is why he is no Trump and should not be under estimated in his political deviousness. }}

by halfwise Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:19 pm

Oh but Trump is working to make sure he can be re-elected. He already has a board in New Mexico who will declare MAGA candidates the winner no matter what (currently they are saying the election machines are biased even when republicans run against republicans, so long as one is MAGA and the other isn't). These can be put in place by legal means via officials elected by MAGA voters. Trump may win next time even if votes go against him because it will probably be close and it only takes a few legal bodies unwilling to accept what the process produces.

by Pettytyrant101 Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:29 pm

{{ Trump strikes me, backed up by whats come out of the Jan 6th hearings, that he is more a reactionary politician- he reacts to events and often doesnt seem to have foreseen the outcomes of his reactions when he takes them. He seems far more emotive, less planned, less manoeuvrable to me in his responses than Boris.
But admittedly I pay far closer attention to domestic politics, US politics is more a sideshow for me I dip in and out of, but worth keeping an eye on, as the old saying goes 'when America sneezes the world catches a cold'. }}

by Mrs Figg Sat Jun 18, 2022 5:23 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ A quick nosey though the right wing press today, and suprise, suprise I find this line being promoted in them all in one fashion or another- the European Human Rights Court has to go!
A great example is the Suns opinion column 'The Sun says' whose opening reads-

'THE EU and its superfan Tony Blair ensured Britain was bound hand and foot by the European Convention on Human Rights....Dominic Raab’s Bill of Rights, coming within days, must instead defang it, enabling us to ignore ECHR rulings counter to our wishes and interests.
But if even that falls short, Boris Johnson MUST go further. Brexit meant regaining power over our borders and laws. Even outside the EU we are not there yet while this separate body, the ECHR, can veto our immigration policy. The PM must not rest until we have taken back control . . . in full.'

And that story is backed up by another headlined- 'Fury as European Court of Human Rights REFUSE to reveal identity of judge who blocked Rwanda flight'

This salvo is accompanied by yet another article headlined- 'Britain to unveil new laws in days after judges blocked PM’s Rwanda migrant plan'- laying the groundwork for the UK withdrawal if not from the entire ECHR then the most important bits of it.

Youll aslo find for example in the Telegraph the artcle headlined bluntly-
'The ECHR has strayed far from its original purpose. It is time for Britain to leave it.'

And its same in most of the rest of the right wing press- not one but several attacks on the ECHR from different angles all of course briefed on and leaked privetly by the Government to their pet press to tell a narrative- all with the same aim, making the case for why the UK should not be part of the ECHR - which at the end of the day is the real reason behind the Rwanda plan in the first place. }}

The Brexit idiots think that anything with the word 'European' on it is the enemy. Rolling Eyes

by halfwise Sat Jun 18, 2022 6:07 pm

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{ Trump strikes me, backed up by whats come out of the Jan 6th hearings, that he is more a reactionary politician- he reacts to events and often doesnt seem to have foreseen the outcomes of his reactions when he takes them. He seems far more emotive, less planned, less manoeuvrable to me in his responses than Boris.
}}

Oh he is, but he has a peculiar instinct for finding the reactions that will work in his favor. His reaction to losing to was declare that the election was fraudulent, and people believed him. Enough people believed him that they will stack key oversight committees to rule in his favor no matter what.

But he's not pure reactionary. He told Leslie Stahl outright when she challenged him for bashing the press: ‘You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so that when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you.’” So he's not purely reactive, he knows the consequences and how they will work for him. That's what makes him so insidious.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:05 pm

{{ A fair summing up of the Tories under Boris from an ex-Tory Party Chairman Lord Patton. He was a leading party member from 79-92 and held a lot of important roles in his career; Sec State for Environment, Minister of State Foreign and Commonwealth Office, European Commissioner, Parliamentary Sec to Northern Ireland, Party Chairman and probably most famously he was the last British Governor of Hong Kong before it got handed back to China.}}

by Mrs Figg Tue Jun 21, 2022 4:56 pm

I remember the people of Hong Kong couldn't wait to get rid of the 'colonialists', quite triumphant they were. I bet they regret that now.

by halfwise Tue Jun 21, 2022 5:09 pm

I think it was mixed - many were apprehensive of being under the thumb of china. If the protesters had more mature leadership they may have been able to hold China at bey longer. But those kids, those dear idealistic misguided kids, did not know how to stage an effective protest. It's a shame they gave China an excuse.

by Pettytyrant101 Tue Jul 05, 2022 11:03 pm

{{ Looks like writing is on the wall for Boris finally- he's shipping ministers left right and centre- Chancellor is gone, Health Secretary is gone, Attorney General just resigned now Will update when I have time, but yeah dont see how even Boris gets outof this one- a desperate attempt to hold a snap election maybe and get the public to back him over his own party? But thats a strategy frought with peril- sending your party out who dont want you as leader to campaign for you. Will Boris himself finally resign? He did say it'd take a panzeer squad to drag him out of no 10- we shall see. }}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:01 pm

{{ 21 resignations now in the last 24 hour including 2 of the biggest cabinet minsters outside the PM- Chancellor and Health Sec. But Boris vows he will continue on! }}

by Mrs Figg Wed Jul 06, 2022 2:19 pm

had a giggle when Starmer called the front bench 'The Charge of the Lightweight Brigade'.
, and it being the only time in history that the sinking ship left the rat Laughing

you should have seen 'Mad Nad' Dorries face.

popcorn at the ready. Thumbs Up

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 06, 2022 4:31 pm

{{ The noose is tightening!

'A group of cabinet ministers are about to tell the PM to resign, including the chief whip, the BBC understands.'

Its already leaked Gove has told him to go earlier this afternoon- -if a loyalist like Gove is saying that it really is over. }}

by Mrs Figg Wed Jul 06, 2022 8:30 pm

Looks like only Mad Nad and Jacob are lingering on. Laughing

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:14 pm

{{ He is refusing to go, says he has a mandate from the people. 14 minister level resignations in a day, another new record for Boris the most lost ever in a 24 hour period, and its not over yet- in total hes lost about 35 folk today.
And on Monday the Tory committee holds tis leadership election, and looks like will be packed with folk who want to change rules to have another no confidence vote in Boris. Boris is sticking to his plan of just survive the day, say and do anything but survive till tomorrow. }}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 06, 2022 9:25 pm

{{ Boris just fired Gove- revenge served finally for Gove standing against him in the leadership election.}}

by Pettytyrant101 Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:34 pm

by Mrs Figg Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:14 am

Johnson resigns. :clap:

by Lancebloke Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:06 am

Well, let's see how this plays out. I'll get my popcorn.

by halfwise Thu Jul 07, 2022 11:31 am

I think the parliamentary system is much better designed for this sort of thing than our system. We've got no equivalent to the shadow cabinet and the phrase "forming a new government" is mysterious to us.

by Lancebloke Thu Jul 07, 2022 1:19 pm

We still seem to be stuck in what is virtually a 2 party system though. Not as bad as the US is, but bad enough.

It makes it very hard to vote when you know that voting for anyone other than red or blue is basically a waste so it is often a vote for who is least worse.

On today's shenanigans though, it was coming for a long time. I think Boris had a quite a large cult following similar to Trump and it didn't really matter what he did, they would support him.

Good thing is, he is no longer a choice here. You still might have to deal with Trump 2.0 which I can only imagine will see some of the stuff coming out over the last few weeks multiplied by 10.