Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I dont see that in what she said- "The dude swinging his penis and tits is nothing other than a pervert and a flasher." That sounds like someone who wants something banned to me, and after arguing Sadowtz should not be that seems contradictory to me. I dont recall Figg calling Sadowtz a pervert and a flasher for getting his cock out- I remember her defending his right to do so. }}

[Lancebloke]

To be honest, I think Figgy made it perfectly clear why she was passed given she said personal insults.

'You sound like a grumpy old granny'

'youre sounding like one of those letters signed 'outraged' that you read in the Daily Mail!'

Whether you meant them in jest or not it does come across as quite condescending. Your arguments seem generally OK to me (not knowing anything about the Sadowitz thing but having seen a lot of the rest) so maybe leave the personal jabs out of it?

Arguments stand and fall on their own merits with needing to call people things.

On the other hand Figgy... you pretty much did that to the person in question. Flasher and a pervert are clearly attacks on that person's character without really knowing what the circumstances behind the whole thing were. They may very well be a pervert and/or a flasher but I am not sure this clip can be used to confirm or deny.

[halfwise]

{{ I dont see that in what she said- "The dude swinging his penis and tits is nothing other than a pervert and a flasher." That sounds like someone who wants something banned to me, and after arguing Sadowtz should not be that seems contradictory to me. I dont recall Figg calling Sadowtz a pervert and a flasher for getting his cock out- I remember her defending his right to do so. }}

Exactly - you are again ignoring the subtlety.  She doesn't think Sadowitz should be banned but does think piano guy should be banned because she's not basing her judgement on nudity. She's basing her judgement on trashiness which is independent of nudity but becomes a bad thing when combined with nudity.  She is calling the censors hypocrites because they made a judgement based on nudity in one case and not the other; but in her eyes they got it backwards, or at the least placed a high bar and then allowed others with less merit to walk under it.

I understand the Petty argument that you shouldn't be offended at something that has always been offensive, but I'm trying to get you to understand the other argument and not insult her for it, which in fact you did (as Lance pointed out) whether you felt you were at the time or not.

{{Figgs forgive me if I miscontrue your position.  Perhaps it's my position and you are saying something different. You may well think Sadowitz should be banned as well, but that's too open and shut and logical to be any fun for the purposes of arguing with Petty.}}

[Mrs Figg]

ok so my position is this,

I am one of the least prudish people you will ever meet. Being an art historian I appreciate nudity and the shock value of art and film. I can sit through the gratuitous sex scenes in GoT without tutting and writing to the Daily Mail. Nudity and sexuality is not the problem.

'Whataboutism' is always a weak argument. Listing the thousands of times that people did outrageous things on TV does not an argument make. The list is endless. using The Word as an example doesn't work because it was made as late night shock value for people stumbling out of the pub at midnight. There was no hypocrisy or sexism involved, The Word was just yoof culture of the 90s trying to be edgy. Idem, Eurotrash, men and women were equally ridiculed and parodied, it was light hearted fun.

I am against banning comedians whose performances include nudity as a fundamental part of their act and persona. Especially as adults go to see these acts knowing what it entails.
Sadowitz was banned after some people called him perverted and felt 'unsafe'. A man getting his penis out was deemed totally unacceptable, but a trans person getting his penis out was deemed, 'brave and beautiful'. The hypocrisy is astounding.

I do think that Jordan Gray is a narcissistic, sexist, flasher. The lyrics to his song were deeply misogynistic and disturbing, saying that as a trans woman his is 'better' than biological women who have 'droopy tits'. To see the idiot audience laughing and cheering was sickening. This is not art, its gender ideology gone perverse and sick. It is not a highlight of our culture.

Calling me names will not win an argument.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{A man getting his penis out was deemed totally unacceptable, but a trans person getting his penis out was deemed, 'brave and beautiful'.- Figg

That sounds an awful lot Figg like the real problem here is that Sadowitz act is hetrosexual and this persons act is trans- and its the trans content you are objecting to and think should be disallowed and banned whilst Sadowtz hetrosexual cock out act should not be. Your problem seems to be one act challenges or mocks gender. I think the freedom to do that must have equal merit as any other right to mock or offend- and noone should be mistaken that Sadowtiz is very much a comedian who works on shock and deliberate offense and uses mockery of all sorts of folk all the time.

Also its hypocrictical by who? The people who banned Sadowtz have nothing to do with channel 4 or who they hire or what they broadcast. Had channel 4 banned him and then allowed this act I would agree with you its about hypocrisy, but as they have nothing to do with each other I dont see hypocrisy I hear transphobia. }}

[Mrs Figg]

That's because you want to hear transphobia.

Who said Jordan Gray is gay? I have no idea whether he is gay or straight.

Many trans people are straight, and many trans women claim to be 'lesbians' aka straight men.

It has nothing to do with being gay or straight.

It has nothing to do with transphobia, but as with anything regarding the trans issue, anyone who questions is immediately called transphobic to shut down any debate with zero proof. Anyone who questions is told there is no debate, and you have now not only personally insulted me you are calling me names yet again. Being called a transphobe is getting really tedious.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I say it sounds like transphobia as your initial post highlighted the fact the person in question had tits and a cock, which is only of any relevance if you wish to make the point the act is trans and you said plainly "a trans person getting his penis out"

Seems rather clear therefore you are talking about this act in the context of it being a trans person and that their act involves mocking in some way tradtional gender - 'saying that as a trans woman his is 'better' than biological women who have 'droopy tits'.'

I havent seen the act I have no idea if thats meant as face value or if its meant to be delibretely offensive or if its satire on expected gender stereotypes. It doesnt really matter. I never went to the Edinburgh Fringe to see Sadowtz act either before it got shut down but I defend the right of either act. Even if I personally might find some things offensive- I like Frankie Boyle for example but I thought his joke about Jordan and her handicapped child raping her was in poor taste and unnecessary, but I wouldnt call for his act or him to be banned for doing so. I just personally didnt like it- and theres a big difference between an individual not liking something and saying someone should be cancelled on principle just because you dislike the content of their act. And when as you seem to be, you base that dislike on the message of the act - ie in this case a trans message, then calling for cancelling on those grounds is for me anti-trans.}}

[halfwise]

Have seen neither of acts, or even either of these people doing any act, and since Figgs has clarified, I have nothing more to say.  So I turn the stage over to Gilbert. The first video is just a voice recording of the whole thing.



(You can find commentary on why comics revere this moment, I think it may need to be put in context. https://www.thedailybeast.com/remembering-gilbert-gottfrieds-iconic-filthy-utterly-hilarious-aristocrats-joke)

This is more commentary but with snippets of video.

[Mrs Figg]

{{

- ie in this case a trans message, then calling for cancelling on those grounds is for me anti-trans.}}

In this case the 'trans message' was hatred towards women. Calling that out is not transphobia, its having a stance against double standards and hate speech.

[Mrs Figg]

If any woman had stripped off naked and played the piano with her undercarriage flaps, she would have been chased out of the country with torches and pitchforks.

[Mrs Figg]

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ This just matches so well. Oddily enough when Truss was giving her leaving speech I was thinking of the Tucker bit when Nicola is forced to resign, plus his line "the ending of a chapter of a very thin book noone enjoyed reading" pretty much sums up the Truss Premiership perfectly! }}

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Just to mention that whilst the climate conference is going on the temperature here in Scotland, in November, at NIGHT is 15 degrees. Something is very wrong, thats at least 10 degrees too high for the time of year. Plants are putting out new green leaves they are so confused.}}

[Mrs Figg]

From the beginning of time the second thing humans ask a new person they meet is "where do you come from" specially if they are obviously foreign. its natural human curiosity, its inbuilt. All my life I have asked people where they come from and because nobody seemed to be ashamed or offended of where they came from, they told me without having their feeling hurt or feeling 'trapped' and 'violated'.
So an 80 year old woman asked another woman with obviously African origins 'where do you come from'. natural seeing that she was not of Anglo-Saxon origin. Then started the victim mentality, and the accusations of racism. I am so fed up with this boring nonsense of accusing people of racism over nothing.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/01/buckingham-palace-encounter-with-susan-hussey-like-an-interrogation-says-charity-boss

[halfwise]

I suspect you haven't read the actual full conversation.

[Amarië]

Yeah, this is way beyond normal natural curiosity.

[Mrs Figg]

Its still not racist. Its rude and a bit passive aggressive, but its not racist, and an 80 year old woman shouldn't have her life ruined. Why couldn't the woman just have said 'I am from the Caribbean'. Fair enough, Job done, no need for hurt feelings.
If all it takes to be slandered with the title of racist is asking someone a basic question, soon it will be impossible for humans to communicate. its race baiting and its going to makes things worse. Its also potentially dangerous. Say there is an outbreak of Ebola and you are not allowed to ask people where they come from for fear of offence. Its absurd. But of course its only 'whitey' who is not allowed to ask the question.

[halfwise]

She wasn't from the Caribbean. She was born in England. It's racist because the lady refused to accept she could have been a British native because of the way she looked. She TOLD her she was born in England and yet the lady was persistent in saying she wasn't from around here. Yes, it was clearly racist.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I think this is one of those cases where it was clearly racist but not without some mitagating circumstances. Firstly the woman involved was a Lady in Waiting to the former Queen and as such spent a lot of time meeting folk, especially lots of folk from the Commonwealth countries in which the Queen was heavily involved, this of course meant meeting a lot of African dignitaries and respresentives at such does and gatherings as this one.
The woman in question presents as African, I dont mean by that she is black but what putting the transcript up doesnt show is that she looks African in her choice of attire, she doesnt dress to show her British heritage at all but her African heritage, so I can understand initially the assumption she was an African.
Once she has had began asking questions however and it was cleaer that the woman was born here the line of questioning should have been dropped as satisified, or the the line of questioning should have changed to enquire if her parents or grandparents had come as immigrants and where from if that was what was wanted to be known.
So whilst it was racist of her to persist when a satisfactory answer had been given already I dont think there was any malicous intent to offend in her words, just poorly choosen and misplaced but somewhat aided and abetted by the woman dressing like an African.
At 80 would seem to me taken aside and a quiet word and encouragment to retire from her duties would have been better way of dealing with it with some dignity than going to the press to call an old woman out as a racist and playing victim. }}

[Mrs Figg]

Nope. Being born in England doesn't make her English, unless you can manipulate thousands of years of DNA. She was born in England and is a full on British citizen. But she is of the Afro-Caribbean race. She even dresses like the Queen of Wakanda to distinguish herself from the English, therefore she is proudly identifying with her African roots. But only when it suits, when somebody questions her, the first response is offence, which is a bit hypocritical considering.
On the other hand I can see that it would be very intimidating for an old aristocrat to be questioning a person so acutely. Once an old posh couple asked me where I came from and I said, Manchester, and he said, "oh dear". Luckily I thought it was funny but some people would have been offended, but old people sometimes do say outrageous things without meaning offence.

[halfwise]

British/English - us mongrel americans don't really see a distinction. It probably looks more offensive to us because the only people here who can claim a genetic inheritance have been largely wiped out and blended in. To us someone born in America is American, full stop and any intimation that it's otherwise based on race is quite offensive because 99.5% of the time there IS no American race.

[Mrs Figg]

I guess I mean that British is a legal definition of someone's citizenship and English is a loose racial definition, as in Anglo-Saxon.

[halfwise]

Yeah, got it. Which is why "where are your people from" makes more sense over there than it does here. Here it can come across as questioning legitimacy unless it's phrased right. Fact is, most people here don't really care where our people are from, so find the question intrusive.

[Lancebloke]

Nope. Being born in England doesn't make her English, unless you can manipulate thousands of years of DNA.

Well, I mean it does. Being born somewhere is the primary thing.

We all have different cultural backgrounds in all different parts of the country that creates more difference between British or English (whatever segmentation you think is appropriate) than whether you are first generation or 200th generation.

I dont know if the text shared above and everywhere else is from the lady or was recorded and transcribed but it is very clear that she was not accepting that there could be a black person who could be born here. She literally asked when she first came here even after saying she was a British national.

Now, is this racist or naivety or stupidity or someone from a 'different era'....? Probably a bit of all of it.

Did the lady not help herself with her overt display of heritage and then nit getting the point of the questioning.... probably that too.

All a bit overblown in my opinion.

[Mrs Figg]

ok look at it this way. Marlene (which is her real name) was cosplaying as an African in full regalia of cowrie shells, Egyptian earings, and long leopard print dress, but she is a few generations away from African, and is in fact Caribbean. She was giving out some pretty weird mixed symbols, on one hand adamant she was British and on the other gussied up in all the tropes of stereotypical African dress. The old woman was confused by this, as would anyone be, as generally you don't dress like that if you were born in Hackney. Lady Susan wanted to know what part of the world she was from, and got irritated by all the ducking and diving and avoidance of a simple question.