Re: The Bigger, Badder, Even More Serious Thread

[Mrs Figg]

Whether a small pocket of feminists Sisters Uncut dared to make some speeches is besides the point, nothing and I repeat NOTHING justifies male police officers throwing peaceful non-criminal women to the ground. If the women had been fighting, throwing weapons or attacking the police they may have been justified in arrests, but it wasn't the case. Also most liberal entities like the Labour party, the Mayor of London have condemned the police brutality. I think that something is clouding your judgement.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Them just being there was breaking the law. And now youre doing it- repeating something that is the opposite of the evidence before our eyes- that it was only, or all male officers. It was not, female officers can clearly be seen doing the same. The policing was organised and run by a woman.

All marches Ive ever been in were peaceful- didnt stop the police wading in to break them up. Gender ha nothing to do with it.
Are there questions over how police in the UK police protests?- yes has been for decades. Does it have anything to do with male police officers using the cover of dark as an excuse to grope women? Or some anti-women agenda- no!! There is not a shred of evidence to support that view.}}

[Mrs Figg]

The facts are very clear, there was a peaceful vigil broken up by violent police methods. That the protesters were women has significance to a large extent because the protest was about male violence and in particular from a MET officer. It also matters because females are in general unable to fight back. But the most important point is that in the UK protests are increasingly seen as criminal behaviour and the people protesting seen as criminals, whether, men, women, black or white. There is a culture of repression. The women were handled like criminals and that is worrying if you want your mum, sister, auntie or wife to be safe and have the right to protest on the streets.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ The speech making is important- the womans group claimed the police delibretly waited till after sunset to 'manhandle' women. When it fact the police only made their move after the speakers began as they were attracting a large crowd to gather close together and close enough to the speakers to hear them.
Its not the content of the speeches, its the fact they used a vigil to make them, and in doing so they caused the issue by making people gather close together in large crowds. It was this which then prompted the police into action.

Again Id argue this wa snot a vigil- as soon as you have speakers and political speeches and rallying its no longer a vigil. A vigil is silent, contemplative, a show of sympathy, support and if warranted as in this case anger at what happened. This was not a vigil, it was a poltical rally organised by a far left group under the guise of being a vigil.There were vigils all over the UK that day and night, only this one had to ne broken up because only this one was not a true vigil and everywhere else noone gathered in large numbers or had political speeches.}

[Mrs Figg]

You seem to be condoning police violence because of your dislike of one 'feminist' group, but that ignores the real issues surrounding the vigil/protest. The fact is these women have the right to free speech and the right to peaceful protest, and the right not to be thrown to the ground and violently pushed.

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/mar/11/civil-liberties-groups-call-police-plans-for-demos-an-assault-on-right-to-protest


I can just imagine how scary it must have been for a young girl to be at the vigil/protest because of her fears and anger at male violence, only to be confronted by male violence, from people supposedly there to protect her. Not a good look. Its not cool. The pandemic is just a cover story to quash all protest.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ Under current law they dont have a right to gather in a group more than 30 people. And they have to social distance. Once the speeches began this was not happening, there were several hundred gathered close together. Which is breaking the current law.
From the moment they didnt follow the rules they were fair game for police to break it up. Gender is nothing to do with it.

Nor am I condoning any violence, just pointing out the police methods for policing protests are no different here than they always have been in the UK. Ive long spoken out against the methods like kettling used by police at protests. Ivehad my legs kicked out from under me by police.

My objection is that this is being painted as male officers attacking women for holding an innocent peaceful vigil. When it was not a vigil it was political rally organised by a politcial group, it broke the current laws, the protestors own choice to have speakers inevitably led to folk gathering in large groups close together, the police were made of male and female officers and took their orders from a female head- the protestors gave the police no choice but to act.
The alternative was to allow an illegal gatheirng to take place which had the potential to spread covid all over London.Were the police tatics or use of force justified? Id say no, but Id say that for almost every protest Ive seen in the UK or taken part in. There was nothing different about this one.}}

[Mrs Figg]

But none of that means the police have the right to throw peaceful protestors to the ground. The only grounds for that would be if the protestors were violent, they were not.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ I wouldnt argue it does. My issue is with the false narrative being presented that this was a male police force attacking women holding a vigil. None of whch is true. There were male and female police, and it was a political rally not a vigil, they were illegally gathered and risking public health.

Im more than happy if finally the UK has a serious conversation about how protests are handled- but to paint this as anything other than absolutely typical of how the police deal with any protest is false. And to say it is because the police were men and the protestors women, which is the narrative being spun, is so far from truth its on another planet}}

[Mrs Figg]

There is no 'narrative being spun' the fact is the protesters were overwhelmingly women and the police were overwhelmingly male. There is no narrative, just facts. The only narrative being spun is from people who are blaming the women for the actions of the men. As per usual blaming the actions of women when they get brutalised. The narrative being spun is the police saying 'stay at home because its your fault you are being murdered on the streets'. When the narrative should be 'why aren't boys being educated not to attack females'.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ There is a narrative being spun- the failure to even mention there were female officers, the insinuation the police waited for darkness to 'manhandle' women. That this was a vigil and not a rally. Thats all false narrative.

Their tweet- "male police officers waited for the sun to set before they started grabbing and manhandling women in the crowd" is untrue, misleading, falsely accusatroy, unfair on the many police just trying to do the job in a difficult circumstance and only makes the situation worse not better. }}

[Mrs Figg]

I think we will just have to agree to disagree.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{ How am I blaming women? For what exactly? Im blaming the organisers who then cancelled the event didnt turn up out of fear of facing the criminal repurcussions of organising an illegal event and then left those theyd encouraged to show up to turn up and take the flak for them then afterwards spread false information, Im blaming the police for their tactics, and Im blaming the far left group who are trying to falsely say that all the police were male, and they waited for darkness to grab women. Im blaming them for hijcaking a vigil to make it a far left political rally leading to protestors gathering close together in large crowds completely recklesly in a pandemic (you think the family of the poor murdered woman want more dead women from covid contracted at a rally for their daughter? I doubt it).

At no point whatsoever have I blamed women in general for anything. Let alone the absurd ascertation Im blaming them for being brutalised. Merely pointed out had this been any other protest the police would have done the same, as they have done on countless demonstrations previously. }}

[Lancebloke]

This whole "why aren't boys being educated to not attack women" is so stupid!!

Firstly, do you think the people that do these things believe that they are either legal or morally right? And by "these things" I mean serious sexual assaults because I can tell you that minor sexual assaults (i.e. groping) happens from both sides!

Second, do people also not realise that this is not the only serious crime that happens and that it happens to men (normally by other men). Are we not talking to people about "not being violent to men" either?

There is definitely a narrative being strung together by the far left of rape culture and brutality toward women which doesn't really add up unless you start brining in specific cultures that do have a problem but do not represent the community as a whole.

[Pettytyrant101]

{{  I can tell you that minor security assaults (i.e. groping) happens from both sides!- Lance

I know when I was younger and in care work, a field dominated by women, I couldnt bend down to pick something up without getting my arse slapped by older female co-workers. It was just ' a laugh' and the one time I did complain to my manager (a woman) I was told to stop beng a wimp about it, it was just work banter and fun apparently. Same goes, as any Scotsman can testify to, being round women when wearing a kilt, always trying to lift it and see what you have underneath. Got to be especially careful if your in a pub and drunk women about its just grabbing and trying to lift your kilt to see if your a 'true Scotsman', laughing and exposing you in public. Particuarly tricky when on the way back from the bar with your hands full of drinks as not much you can do to stop them as you try to go by.
So there is definently a double standard there. I cant imagine in todays world a guy trying to lift a womens skirt in a public place to see if she is wearing anything underneath and passing it off as just a laugh. In that regard men have in fact learned to be more respectful of women and their personal space, more than many women seem to have learned the other way in fact as there is little to no conversation about it happening the other way, its always men bad. }}

[Lancebloke]

Your quote made me realise my phone had auto-corrected sexual assault to security assault!!

[Mrs Figg]

This whole "why aren't boys being educated to not attack women" is so stupid!!

Firstly, do you think the people that do these things believe that they are either legal or morally right? And by "these things" I mean serious sexual assaults because I can tell you that minor sexual assaults (i.e. groping) happens from both sides!

Second, do people also not realise that this is not the only serious crime that happens and that it happens to men (normally by other men). Are we not talking to people about "not being violent to men" either?

There is definitely a narrative being strung together by the far left of rape culture and brutality toward women which doesn't really add up unless you start brining in specific cultures that do have a problem but do not represent the community as a whole.

You answered your own question, The overall problem is of male violence against women  (and men), the problem is boys are not educated to have respect for women (or other men).
As for your second statement, the 'narrative' is based on reality. 90% of violent crime is perpetrated by men, on other men, but mostly on women. vast amounts of uprosecute rape, murder and violence exists, it doesn't need the 'far left' to narrative it. The whole of human male culture is at fault, from African FGM, Asian 'honour killing, American anti-abortionists, INCELS, British date rapists, Chinese forced marriages, ISIS groomers, Russian domestic violence, and all violent murderous wars in general, its all the same putrid soup.

[halfwise]

In the particular case of the recent London protest, Petty is correct in saying it wasn't targetted female assault.

In the larger picture, Figgs is of course correct. But the larger picture doesn't mean you get to ignore the sexual harrassment of men by women: just that it's systemically unbalanced.

Judge without bias on a case by case basis; but keep your eye on the larger picture.

[Mrs Figg]

I am not saying women are angels either, because women are masters of psychological violence par excellence. Women can be tremendous bullies, only not physically violent most of the time. That's why I would never work in an office full of women, they are horrible, I much prefer men to work with.

[azriel]

I agree Figgy, women can be utter bitches on a psychological level. We just dont have the physical strength to have a good old punch up like a man can ( tho the urge is there ) We can tinker around with the brain like a mechanic with a car engine

[Mrs Figg]

yep, I don't know what is worse, a punch up the neck or a campaign of mental torture, at least the punch is over quickly.

[azriel]

[Lancebloke]

I think people need to remember that humans have hundreds of thousands of years of evolution during which a primary survival trait is being aggressive. It is inate in people.

We all have a differing level of that trait and unfortunately the will always be an extreme and that is where you tend to find a lot of people that commit crime. Extremely aggression, extreme lack of empathy, extreme obsessive disorders like control. That is why we aren't aren't killing each other... it is extreme for a reason... but why we continue to have these problems and probably always will.

"Teaching men to respect women" is not generally a useful idea in a culture where most men do respect women. There will always be aggression and there will always be extreme versions of that aggression, the same as there will be for those other things.

I find that right now the far left and far right are dominating conversations on this kind of stuff. Gender pay gap, identity politics, hate speech, civil liberties etc are all clouded by people thinking both emotively and insularly (both words o had to force my phone to accept) and we are not getting anywhere on any of it.

[Mrs Figg]

The point about the vigil is obviously the actual murder but also the perceived threat that goes with being a woman every day of her life. A woman cannot just go for a walk, something as simple as going for a walk outside is more than that for a man. A woman cant just walk out the door and disappear into the woods, fields or streets with a sense of freedom. There is always the element of risk and a background sense of fear of meeting a stranger on the path. Even the most innocent looking places are a threat, a mobile must be switched on, you must tell someone where you are going, an escape route must be planned, this goes on inside a woman's head in autopilot. And then there is always the terrible lurch of fear as you see a man on the road, fields or woods. and it never stops, the incidents never stop. From being locked for my own safety in the guards van on a train from Manchester to London by a terrified train guard as I was harassed by a group of thugs, or hiding for hours in a forest after being chased by men in a car on a lonely road, or being groped and followed by a man on a bus in broad daylight, the other passengers too scared to stop him, or being flashed at by a man when I was a child, or trapped in a single train carriage by a masturbator who was doing it in front of a mother and child. Being a woman is a life full of fear or the potential threat of violence every day of her life, and the fear never stops. That is why those young women were so very angry, they want the freedom that men have. They don't want to end up like Pippa Bacca. So full of hope and trust and so brutally betrayed.

[halfwise]

Have to disagree with much of what you say, Lance. Though Figgy's talking about the extremes I think there's also a lot of casual boneheaded treatment of women that could be fended off. The Me Too movement was a wake up call for a lot of men - they remembered doing much the same things that many of these men were outed for. Not constantly, but on occasion when running on cultural autopilot. I think MeToo went to far in the public humiliation and destruction of lives, but only because nearly all men have been guilty of similar behavior until it was pointed out to them. There is a casual sexism in the culture that can only be addressed by training. I think addressing the every day incidents will eliminate more of the extreme behavior than one might expect at first.

[Pettytyrant101]

There is always the element of risk and a background sense of fear of meeting a stranger on the path. Even the most innocent looking places are a threat- Figg

{{yes but how much of that is societal perceived threat and whats real? How often have you been out a walk, or going down a street and actually been asualted by a man? Whats the reality of it versus the perception of it?
At same time that poor women was murdered there were sevral fatalities in the UK of men by men. No one is talking about the risk to men of going out and to certain places.
There are places and time of day when Im out as a precuation I have one hand in my pocket with my house keys between my knuckles, just in case. Almost never actually have a confrontation, but there have been a few over the years, but still feel the need to have my keys in hand, more so as I get older.
I can imagine that 'feel the need to' is much greater for women, but is it because the risk of assualt whilst out and about is actually greater? (women are more likely to suffer domestic abuse stastically than men, but men are far more likely when out to be assualted by another man than a woman is). Statistcially men have more to fear when out and about than women do. But socierty doesnt give a crap about that.

I also have an issue with what the govt restated today and is now a common refrain- that a woman who makes a complaint of sexual harrassment must 'always be believed'. Why? Is that how justice works? Arent women capable of lying, of acting vindictively, or malicously in the eyes of the law? Take it seriously yes, investigate fully yes, but automatically believe her just because its a women saiyng it? Thats a step too far.}}