UK in/out referendum on the EU (Brexit vs Bremain)

{{{ Sadly she wouldn't have a case to make, the Scotland team couldn't find their own arses with both hands a torch and a map. }}}

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37983948

{{{woe the future under the Tories out of the EU! The self proclaimed party of the working people (no really thats what they claim to be now- on the side of the those just struggling to get by) the self proclaimed defenders of workers rights, they who will protect our rights once we leave the EU!

Or as the Works and Pensions Minister preferred to say at a private function-

'“Just a few years ago the idea of a proper job meant a job that brings in a fixed monthly salary, with fixed hours, paid holidays, sick pay, a pension scheme and other contractual benefits.
But the gig economy has changed all that. We’ve seen the rise of the everyday entrepreneur. People now own their time and control who receives their services and when.
They can pick and mix their employers, their hours, their offices, their holiday patterns. This is one of the most significant developments in the labour market. The potential is huge and the change is exciting.”
He want on to add- 'the Government had launched the Taylor Review into employment practices to make sure that employment rights keep up with employment practices.'

I assume that mean you shouldn't then have a right to paid holidays, or sick pay, or to have a contract, or fixed hours, or a base level of minimum pay per month.

And if you dont see all that as a horrible future he added this to help make matters sound worse-

'the private sector and voluntary sector should be more involved in the provision of welfare services.'

and rounded it all off with 'The Government is a necessary, but not sufficient provider of welfare.'

Thanks again England for the Tories and Brexit. Smashing job chaps. }}}

Oi... and Wales!!

And to me that reads a little bit like how I see my business right now. We have a huge amount of contract work rather than just fully employed people. They come in for however they are needed and then go and find another contract. We pay the A LOT for thier time but it is as much their risk as ours. They can walk out whenever they want.

I don't know how much of the workforce are like this and how many are by choice but I would suggest that this probably does need looking at to see how the world is working these days. Are contractors making lots of money by offering their services in this way instead of finding 'a proper job' only to then be claiming benefits when they can't? Should they be able to and if so at the same rate as those that have chosen a different lifestyle?

I am sure you could look at that in the context of zero hours contracts too and it would look like the opposite situation. I think it is probably a good idea that the entire situation be reviewed to see if welfare policy today is fit for purpose.

By the way... I am not voting for flower power Corbyn in the next election. Labour need to stop picking these stupid leaders if they want votes.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-government-ignoring-experts-trade-deal-canada-ceta-jason-langrish-sir-ivan-rogers-theresa-may-a7515596.html

{{To quote you back from the Freedom thread Malick! }}}

[/quote]

Theresa May says ''Brexit means Brexit'' in public what she really means is 'Brexit means                       '[/quote]

I can't even bring myself to get pissed off about it anymore, the stupidity arrogance and short sighted greed of this whole endeavor is embarrassing and terrifying.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/17/bravado-only-partially-masks-contradictions-in-theresa-mays-speech

Aaaaaaaaand... you're fucked. At least that would be my interpretation.

Of course, it is perhaps good to see the realities. Access to the single market without accepting the four freedoms? Pffff... hahaha

I think the italian foreign minister said it best, when faced with Boris Johnson's, typically polemic, argument that they should let the UK into the single market or it would hurt their prosecco sales..

"He basically said, ‘I don’t want free movement of people but I want the single market,’” said Calenda. “I said, ‘no way.’ He said, ‘you’ll sell less prosecco.’ I said, ‘OK, you’ll sell less fish and chips, but I’ll sell less prosecco to one country and you’ll sell less to 27 countries.’ Putting things on this level is a bit insulting."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-16/u-k-s-brexit-policy-chaos-is-unacceptable-italy-s-calenda-says

{{Yup its a big pigs ear of a fuck up this!- but because nothing has actually happened beyond words yet there is no little to no effect on the UK economy- in fact in some areas its outperforming its European counterparts. And that could be a problem if a big upset is coming, which seems likely when words turn to actions and the reactions follow in the markets. But right now it is giving what may well be a false hope that its been the right decision- and many seem to be at least prepared to believe the line at the moment which is that we can strike more, better, faster trade deals with other parts of the world than the EU and do better than we were. }}

all the idiot brexiteers are getting uppity because the pound is up once pence, and crying freedom. yeah freedom from the worlds biggest market and human rights laws. its so stupid it makes normal levels of stupid look like Einstein. I still cant get my head round WHY???????? of all the dumbassed...oh I give up....

Well... we are yet to see how this is going to turn out.

We still have a lot of populist movements going on in Europe that could lead to further fragmentation.

We can still negotiate deals with the EU once we are out but have no idea what that could look like. It seems Trump is looking for an ally and I am sure we would take that role happily if it meant the US put some weight on the EU to play fair.

Also, as much as the Prosecco joke seems funny, there are a lot of industries that make a lot of money from the UK. The German car industry is one and we all know the Germans run the EU.

I think this could turn out to be a disaster if everyone decides to take a hard line despite their own best interests. But I think that will actually further fuel the hard right is some of these countries who are already struggling for jobs and trade.

Fun times.

Yes, but as the quote shows, the free access to the market of 27 countries is a whole lot more worth than the access for 27 to one. The UK cannot negotiate with the EU on equal footing, and, as such, will not get the deal they want. For free access to the internal market accepting the four freedoms is non-negotiable. If the UK will not do that they will have to negotiate for trade deals like any other third country in relation to the Union.

And all the while the UK economy has made a surplus for years from being part of the EU. The basic point all sides should accept is that it is the UK that is walking away from that relationship to their benefit.

Mrs Figg wrote:all the idiot brexiteers are getting uppity because the pound is up once pence, and crying freedom. yeah freedom from the worlds biggest market and human rights laws. its so stupid it makes normal levels of stupid look like Einstein. I still cant get my head round WHY????????   of all the dumbassed...oh I give up....

Luckily the human rights laws are not directly connected with the EU, aside from the Charter of Fundamental Rights, that is the EU approach to basic human rights for all Union citizens. In Europe human rights rules are on the whole based on the European Convention of Human Rights, which is a treaty under the Council of Europe. Withdrawal from that treaty would have to be decided separately.

Not that May and the other right wing tories won't find a way to convince the the people who voted for brexit that they don't need human rights or protection from human rights violations by their country either, soon enough..

..yeah its the soon enough that's worrying. without those laws the Tories can really start on the eugenics as regards disabled people. I reckon if there is a benefit from leaving it will be at least 30 years before we see any return, so that's pretty much everyone alive now who voted out. I wonder if its worth it. It will take us at least the first 10 years for the dust to settle, but way before that Trump will be out on his ear, and where does that leave the UK as regards super dooper deals with the US? nowhere that's where. Because who knows what Pence of any other manner of numbskull will do after Trump.

http://audiovisual.europarl.europa.eu/AssetDetail.aspx?id=5089cb9b-1f1a-4093-bcef-a6ff0100e156

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/18/not-punish-britain-shed-illusions-eu-fair-deal?CMP=fb_gu

Interesting days ahead. God 2016 was in so many ways a shitfest!

{{Ive got a solution to Brexit! Its easy- England and Wales go independent- leaving the rest of the UK to stay the UK and retain our EU membership and England and Wales can go do their own thing. Everyone is happy- little Englanders are happy cause they have their country back (not sure who from but still!) and the Scots, Irish and Gibraltons are happy as they get to retain the EU membership they voted for.}}}

Or Petty, you could respect the vote of your countrymen who voted to stay in the UK thereby accepting the fate of one is the same as the other... not that they could cherry pick the bits they liked as and when they liked.

How about that?

{{Dont see why its clear the current government has no respect for countrymen outside of England right now (see the Freedom thread for Mays ridiculous answer to the SNP at PMQ's). This is an English agenda being pandered to here the rest of us are just being dragged along with.
Besides I find it hard to respect the vote as I think the English largely voted on narrow minded bigotry, ignorance, and self interest- pretty much the exact opposite of everything I believe in politically.
England made this mess- English votes made this mess- so England could fix it by seceding from the UK. Job done problem solved. England gets what it wants- out the EU and its Little England back and the rest of us get what we voted for too- retained membership of the EU. }}

Pettytyrant101 wrote:{{Dont see why its clear the current government has no respect for countrymen outside of England right now (see the Freedom thread for Mays ridiculous answer to the SNP at PMQ's). This is an English agenda being pandered to here the rest of us are just being dragged along with.
Besides I find it hard to respect the vote as I think the English largely voted on narrow minded bigotry, ignorance, and self interest- pretty much the exact opposite of everything I believe in politically.
England made this mess- English votes made this mess- so England could fix it by seceding from the UK. Job done problem solved. England gets what it wants- out the EU and its Little England back and the rest of us get what we voted for too- retained membership of the EU. }}

This makes you sound ignorant yourself, there are vast swathes of Urban England that have changed out of all recognition due to mass immigration in the last 10-15 years, Globalisation has arguably fucked over the working class in some ways as much as the Tories have, and not everyone would hav voted Leave for the same reasons, very easy for you to sit there and say how backward and racist England is when you actually have a devolved government voted in by a majority working in your interests, a generally more left leaning press, and Scotland has had a much smaller exposure to mass immigration.

And what about the 1 million Scottish LEAVE Voters (which multiple sources have indicated included perhaps 400,000 YES voters and several SNP MP's)? Or the 1.3 Million eligible Scottish voters who couldn't be bothered to vote in the referendum? Or the 16 Million Remain voters across the United Kingdom the majority of which were English? Or the 800,000 Scots living in England, many of which would have also voted Leave? or the 12 Million illegible who didn't vote?

Or the majority of Scots who voted to stay in the United Kingdom in 2014?, knowing full well that A) A EU Referendum and Brexit was a high possibility, and B) Had Scotland voted for independence in 2014 (on the basis of a wildly optimistic white paper and vague promises) they would have been out of the E.U anyway and suffered horrendous economic consequences.

Lancebloke wrote:Or Petty, you could respect the vote of your countrymen who voted to stay in the UK thereby accepting the fate of one is the same as the other... not that they could cherry pick the bits they liked as and when they liked.

How about that?

Scotland has had a much lower amount of immigration.- Malick

{{Not through choice! We have been trying to increase immigration here for years- we need immigrants we have a falling population of working age- its been a centuries long issue that can trace it roots to the Clearances.
One of the main planks Sturgeon is trying to negotiate when we do leave is for immigration to be devolved to Scotland so we can set our own immigration levels and take many more in- the people who oppose this happening is Westminster.

In the meantime our economy suffers so suit the demographics of England.

'1 million Scottish LEAVE Voters'

Leaving 4 million scots who didnt vote to leave! And that 1 million was spread out right across the country- there was no concentrations of it like in England- so spread out in fact that not a single Scottish constituency returned a Leave verdict- not one.


'the 16 Million Remain voters across the United Kingdom the majority of which were English?'


i feel sorry for them- but this thing is an entirely English created issue. The referendum only came about in the first place due to tory fears of UKIP- a party with no presence in Scotland- UKIP are an English National Party- and it was fear of them led to this whole debacle- a problem solely created in England around English politics and social issues but which has had a profound effect on every other part of the UK- who didnt want it or ask for it. }}}


'knowing full well that A) A EU Referendum and Brexit was a high possibility'

Bull! At the time of the scottish referendum no one in their right mind thought Britain would vote to leave the EU let alone it being 'highly possible'.

'they would have been out of the E.U anyway '

This is a bizarre english myth! Nowhere, no time, EVER, has the SNP proposed removing Scotland from the EU- even under independence membership was to be immediately sought and ideally would be unbroken- it was the Westminster parties that made the claims we could not get membership if we left- in the end it was never put to the test- but the SNP position is and always has been unequivocally Scottish membership of the EU.
Say that in Scotland people will just laugh at you like your daft its so well know what the SNP position on Europe is- they go on about it all the time. }}}

Petty - you have taken a few of Malick's comments our of context (some look by accident, others not so much).

Basically, what this amounts to is you not getting your way in 2 votes. I only had the chance of 1 and I didn't get my way either but I am not about to join a vote for London to leave the UK.

Scotland had its vote. Democracy worked as it should and the majority decided that they would remain part of the UK. Like I said before, you can't just cherry pick which bits you like or don't like otherwise we would have referendum votes every 5 minutes. That isn't democracy, that is throwing your toys out because it doesn't all go your way and be damned with everyone else.

Malick's point about the EU referendum being something g that was talked about a long time back and becoming ever more likely to happen is fair. We all saw it coming. UKIP has been on the rise for a while ( since not long after 2008) so telling anyone that this vote came out of the blue or that there wasn't gathering momentum for a possible vote to leave is just talking horseshit.

Also, the last point you were referring to is the whole Scottish independence equals socal and automatically being outside the EU. That is what you were being told by the EU itself yet Salmond somehow knew better that you would just be let in because..... well just because. So essentially, a vote yes would have been a vote to leave going by the information the EU was giving you at the time.

This is a problem of English and Welsh making? Well Scotland had a fair contribution with its leave voters adding to the total. Again, remember you are part of the UK, not Scotland on your own (as the Scottish people voted for). The result was 17m vs 16m.... those 1m votes made a difference Petty. A very big one which also impacts me!!!!